A Protestant's perspective on why we won't find common ground with LDS

[Brad]

<!--quoteo(post=1208696104:date=Jul 21 2009, 12:23 PM:name=Brad)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Brad @ Jul 21 2009, 12:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1208696104"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"Believing" is not merely just accepting a statement of facts. It is trust. Putting your trust in Jesus Christ to save you. It says in John 3 that you must be born again. What exactly happens when you're born again? You become dead to sin. In Romans 6, it says "How can we, who are dead to sin, still live in it"?

Your old man is crucified with Christ. You no longer are a slave to sin, but a slave to righteousness. Can you genuinely be born again and then choose to do evil for the rest of your life? Absolutely not, according to what I believe. After talking to many LDS, they like the idea of free choice. They believe that you can be born again and choose to do evil. Let me word it this way: They are saying, you can be born again, have your old self be crucified with Christ, become a slave to righteousness, and still choose to be a slave to sin.

That doesn't compute with me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

So you're saying that because in your religion once you are "born again", you are considered free of sin and you are without free will?

No, I am saying that the Gospel teaches that once you are born again, sin is no longer your master. You are given a new nature, and that new nature will never go away. You can choose to sin, yes, but it goes against the ESSENCE of who you are. Think of it this way, before you are born again, you are just like a pig. You love to eat sweet, smelly slop....the more flies buzzing, the better. Now, once you are transformed by the Holy Spirit, you become a man. That slop is now disgusting to you. You may slip out back for a taste now and then, because you knew you used to love it, but it makes you vomit everytime you take a taste. Now, if we have someone who is a man go out and just start pigging out on that slop everyday, how is that possible? That man's stomach can't handle it....he would have food poisoning. For that to happen, it means that he must indeed be a pig, and never was a man to begin with....he was only a pig that put mans clothes on for a while.

[volgadon]

Pigs don't change into men. Pigs are always pigs and men are always men. A man could never eat the ame thing ever. Your analogy is ridiculous.

[Brad]

Pigs don't change into men. Pigs are always pigs and men are always men. A man could never eat the ame thing ever. Your analogy is ridiculous.

"Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come."

2 Corinthians 5:17

[volgadon]

Hey Mudcat,

thanks for the kind words. Indeed, I have seemed to stir up a bit of a mess here. Perhaps I haven't always said everything always in the right way.

Anyways, in response to your question, I do not think it is possible for the Holy Spirit to be unable to do something...or anything. Certainly, if God wants a man to be saved, He will carry out His will. Just look at the Apostle Paul....he was killing Christians. It took him having to be knocked off his horse...Jesus intervened and put him on the right track. One part of my theology that I believe differs from many LDS is the idea of election. I believe that man is totally depraved.... men love their sin, have no idea how engraved they are in it (does a fish know that he's wet?), and do not want to come to God. Men are like the dry, dead bones talked about in Ezekiel. It is only by the power of the Almighty God that those bones are commanded to become men. I know LDS like to stress free will, and I would agree with that to some certain extent, however, look at the example given when Pontius Pilate was talking to Jesus. Jesus told him, "You have no power that was not given to you from above." It definitely feels like we have a free will, but ultimately, God created us, and every decision we make has to be made in the context of His omniscience.

In response to whether I believe that all LDS are doomed, I will conclude that I do not have the power or the right to say so. I will say, however, that I look at the LDS church (and many Protestant churches alike), and I see a great deal of "religion". Religion, however, is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ. What religion has become today is a set of rules that everyone has to do to get God to love you (no one will admit this, but actions speak louder than words). This is what we call the "De-churched". You'll get a lot of people doing everything they're supposed to, so that God will love them. They're missing it though. That's not the Gospel. The Gospel teaches that NO ONE is righteous! God doesn't look down and see good people and bad people, He only sees bad people. If it were an old western movie, we'd all be wearing black hats. Jesus is the only one who was righteous....and it is only by His atonement that we can be made perfect in the sight of God. That's why I don't like to say that good works are necessary for salvation. They aren't your good works....they were created unto you because of your new birth....because Christ killed your old man and gave you a new heart. I believe it was the Pharisees who took pride in their good works, and felt that they were better than the people who weren't doing what they were doing. That's what worries me the most about religion, is when people put their faith in their Church, and not the saving power of Jesus Christ. They think, "Okay, I just need to do everything that my church tells me to do, and God will let me into Heaven." I've heard it put this way before, and I really like it....When you don't get the gospel right, men and women will become conformed to a pattern of religion and morality, yet they are not transformed by the Holy Spirit! Without the Gospel, you INOCULATE people to Jesus Christ. You give them just enough of Him to never know Him (just like it talks about in Matt. 7:21-23!)

Hope that helps!

Did God just not want to save Judas strongly enough?

I thought God is love and no respecter of persons.

If one isn't saved, then wouldn't it be God's fault, he obviously didn't want to save that person.

Religion, in the original Latin, means reverence towards God. Is that wrong?

Who are you to judge if someone is doing works for their own sakes or out of love for the Lord.

Surely you aren't claiming that we shouldn't do works.

If not, then I don't know what you want.

We agree with the concept of depravity, for the most part. It is even taught in the BoM (mortal man an enemy to God), but total depravity, that a man is born depraved and is inherently evil, is a false doctrine.

[volgadon]

"Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come."

2 Corinthians 5:17

But are you changed from a man? What are you then if not human?

Bat, iguana, armadillo, warthog, great crested grebe, or a questing vole passing feather-footed through the plashy fen?

[ACW]

Hey Mudcat,

thanks for the kind words. Indeed, I have seemed to stir up a bit of a mess here. Perhaps I haven't always said everything always in the right way.

Anyways, in response to your question, I do not think it is possible for the Holy Spirit to be unable to do something...or anything. Certainly, if God wants a man to be saved, He will carry out His will. Just look at the Apostle Paul....he was killing Christians. It took him having to be knocked off his horse...Jesus intervened and put him on the right track. One part of my theology that I believe differs from many LDS is the idea of election. I believe that man is totally depraved.... men love their sin, have no idea how engraved they are in it (does a fish know that he's wet?), and do not want to come to God. Men are like the dry, dead bones talked about in Ezekiel. It is only by the power of the Almighty God that those bones are commanded to become men. I know LDS like to stress free will, and I would agree with that to some certain extent, however, look at the example given when Pontius Pilate was talking to Jesus. Jesus told him, "You have no power that was not given to you from above." It definitely feels like we have a free will, but ultimately, God created us, and every decision we make has to be made in the context of His omniscience.

In response to whether I believe that all LDS are doomed, I will conclude that I do not have the power or the right to say so. I will say, however, that I look at the LDS church (and many Protestant churches alike), and I see a great deal of "religion". Religion, however, is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ. What religion has become today is a set of rules that everyone has to do to get God to love you (no one will admit this, but actions speak louder than words). This is what we call the "De-churched". You'll get a lot of people doing everything they're supposed to, so that God will love them. They're missing it though. That's not the Gospel. The Gospel teaches that NO ONE is righteous! God doesn't look down and see good people and bad people, He only sees bad people. If it were an old western movie, we'd all be wearing black hats. Jesus is the only one who was righteous....and it is only by His atonement that we can be made perfect in the sight of God. That's why I don't like to say that good works are necessary for salvation. They aren't your good works....they were created unto you because of your new birth....because Christ killed your old man and gave you a new heart. I believe it was the Pharisees who took pride in their good works, and felt that they were better than the people who weren't doing what they were doing. That's what worries me the most about religion, is when people put their faith in their Church, and not the saving power of Jesus Christ. They think, "Okay, I just need to do everything that my church tells me to do, and God will let me into Heaven." I've heard it put this way before, and I really like it....When you don't get the gospel right, men and women will become conformed to a pattern of religion and morality, yet they are not transformed by the Holy Spirit! Without the Gospel, you INOCULATE people to Jesus Christ. You give them just enough of Him to never know Him (just like it talks about in Matt. 7:21-23!)

Hope that helps!

The bold face is where I disagree with you. I don't believe that man is totally "depraved", some yes, but not all. And some men "love their sin" but not all. (BTW...what do you mean by "sin"? Why is it singular not plural? This is a Christian concept I'm totally lost on.) Again, I don't believe "men are like dry,dead bones" unless they choose to be or just don't know better.

I do agree with your point on Religion...sometimes church becomes a habit and the Spirit can get lost. Serving others and keeping the commandments should be done because we love Jesus Christ and are grateful for His atoning sacrifice for us.

[Bytor]

God doesn't look down and see good people and bad people, He only sees bad people. If it were an old western movie, we'd all be wearing black hats. Jesus is the only one who was righteous....and it is only by His atonement that we can be made perfect in the sight of God. That's why I don't like to say that good works are necessary for salvation. They aren't your good works....they were created unto you because of your new birth....because Christ killed your old man and gave you a new heart.

God is our Father and I don't think he looks down from the heavens and sees black hats........I think he sees his children and worries over them and longs for there return to his Eternal presence. As for good works.......there are millions of people who have never heard of Jesus Christ who do "good" often....more than some supposed Christians I might add. Your understanding of God is deeply flawed and I seriously doubt you know anything about the "Gospel" of Jesus Christ or the Holy Ghost based on your posts.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

No, I am saying that the Gospel teaches that once you are born again, sin is no longer your master. You are given a new nature, and that new nature will never go away. You can choose to sin, yes, but it goes against the ESSENCE of who you are.

So if you sin right now as a born again, taht means that you didn't choose to sin?? Did I get taht right. Because as you put it "you can't handle the slop"?

Think of it this way, before you are born again, you are just like a pig. You love to eat sweet, smelly slop....the more flies buzzing, the better. Now, once you are transformed by the Holy Spirit, you become a man. That slop is now disgusting to you. You may slip out back for a taste now and then, because you knew you used to love it, but it makes you vomit everytime you take a taste. Now, if we have someone who is a man go out and just start pigging out on that slop everyday, how is that possible? That man's stomach can't handle it....he would have food poisoning. For that to happen, it means that he must indeed be a pig, and never was a man to begin with....he was only a pig that put mans clothes on for a while.

This is a horrable anaology. Men are not pigs, and pigs do not were mans clothing.

[Lance in TX]

God is our Father and I don't think he looks down from the heavens and sees black hats........I think he sees his children and worries over them and longs for there return to his Eternal presence. As for good works.......there are millions of people who have never heard of Jesus Christ who do "good" often....more than some supposed Christians I might add. Your understanding of God is deeply flawed and I seriously doubt you know anything about the "Gospel" of Jesus Christ or the Holy Ghost based on your posts.

You cannot really fault him though.. He is just following the heretical Luther instead of following Jesus Christ. These are the beliefs of all Lutherans. I would think it would be so depressing and sad to be a Lutheran, with how they view the world. I hope that one day his eyes are really opened and he really sees the love that Heavenly Father and Jesus have for everyone on this Earth: in the past, now and in the future.

[volgadon]

You cannot really fault him though.. He is just following the heretical Luther instead of following Jesus Christ. These are the beliefs of all Lutherans. I would think it would be so depressing and sad to be a Lutheran, with how they view the world. I hope that one day his eyes are really opened and he really sees the love that Heavenly Father and Jesus have for everyone on this Earth: in the past, now and in the future.

Sounds more Calvinist, honestly. If there is a reformer I like less than Luther, it is Calvin.

[LeSellers]

Sounds more Calvinist, honestly. If there is a reformer I like less than Luther, it is Calvin.

I love both Calvin and Luther. They started the Reformation, weakened the Roman Catholic Church and freed much of Europe (including England, albeit indirectly) and led directly to the Restoration.

I do agree, though, that they may have "pulled a Solomon": wise and humble in the beginning, but gradually became too full of themselves and got off on the wrong track.

Lehi

[volgadon]

Calvin was utterly horrid. I don't think anyone could have accused him of being wise and humble.

[Mudcat]

Hi Brad,

Hey Mudcat,

thanks for the kind words. Indeed, I have seemed to stir up a bit of a mess here. Perhaps I haven't always said everything always in the right way.

They say beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I suppose conversational tact has similar properties.

One part of my theology that I believe differs from many LDS is the idea of election. I believe that man is totally depraved.... men love their sin, have no idea how engraved they are in it (does a fish know that he's wet?), and do not want to come to God. Men are like the dry, dead bones talked about in Ezekiel. It is only by the power of the Almighty God that those bones are commanded to become men.

I agree with you here. It is a key difference.

I know LDS like to stress free will, and I would agree with that to some certain extent, however, look at the example given when Pontius Pilate was talking to Jesus. Jesus told him, "You have no power that was not given to you from above." It definitely feels like we have a free will, but ultimately, God created us, and every decision we make has to be made in the context of His omniscience.

If I am reading this right sounds like you have some Calvinist leanings? There are compelling arguments for this sort of concept. If so, you might find some interest in browsing the archives for some posts of CKSalmon's, as he feels similarly compelled in belief.

In response to whether I believe that all LDS are doomed, I will conclude that I do not have the power or the right to say so. I will say, however, that I look at the LDS church (and many Protestant churches alike), and I see a great deal of "religion". Religion, however, is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ. What religion has become today is a set of rules that everyone has to do to get God to love you (no one will admit this, but actions speak louder than words). This is what we call the "De-churched". You'll get a lot of people doing everything they're supposed to, so that God will love them. They're missing it though. That's not the Gospel. The Gospel teaches that NO ONE is righteous!

Well, I think that was well said and I agree. Emphasis mine, I would further the point by stating, I think there are a number of folks who don't really even take God's love into account but are rather looking for the approval of other members of their church. The Church isn't a social club.

When you don't get the gospel right, men and women will become conformed to a pattern of religion and morality, yet they are not transformed by the Holy Spirit! Without the Gospel, you INOCULATE people to Jesus Christ. You give them just enough of Him to never know Him (just like it talks about in Matt. 7:21-23!)

You have an interesting perspective. This is something I struggle with from time to time. By that I mean, sometimes I wonder just how much of a "fudge factor" is allowable in God's eyes. You'll likely find I have a fairly broad view on that though. But like you have stated, election is absolutely necessary. With Without being called of God, there is no way we can be saved.

Thanks for taking the time to respond, and I think I see where you are coming from a bit better now. Look forward to reading future posts from you.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

[LeSellers]

Calvin was utterly horrid. I don't think anyone could have accused him of being wise and humble.

It seems unlikely that God could inspire anyone who had no humility, nor wisdom enough to recognize the spirit. His doctrines are, indeed atrocious. He, himself, though, I believe was inspired. I am not alone, apparently.

Then in 1517, the Spirit moved Martin Luther, a German priest who was disturbed at how far the church had strayed from the gospel as taught by Christ. His work led to a reformation, a movement that was taken up by such other visionaries as John Calvin, Huldrych Zwingli, John Wesley, and John Smith.

I believe these reformers were inspired to create a religious climate in which God could restore lost truths and priesthood authority. Similarly, God inspired the earlier explorers and colonizers of America and the framers of the Constitution of the United States to develop a land and governing principles to which the gospel could be restored.

M. Russell Ballard,

"The Truth is on the Earth Once More"

New Era

, Jan 2009, 2â??6,

Lehi

[talisyn]

No, I am saying that the Gospel teaches that once you are born again, sin is no longer your master. You are given a new nature, and that new nature will never go away. You can choose to sin, yes, but it goes against the ESSENCE of who you are. Think of it this way, before you are born again, you are just like a pig. You love to eat sweet, smelly slop....the more flies buzzing, the better. Now, once you are transformed by the Holy Spirit, you become a man. That slop is now disgusting to you. You may slip out back for a taste now and then, because you knew you used to love it, but it makes you vomit everytime you take a taste. Now, if we have someone who is a man go out and just start pigging out on that slop everyday, how is that possible? That man's stomach can't handle it....he would have food poisoning. For that to happen, it means that he must indeed be a pig, and never was a man to begin with....he was only a pig that put mans clothes on for a while.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that you probably never had ice cream when you were a child....or I would but I don't think that's allowed.

Is this really your world view? Yipes. So basically what you are saying is anyone that has heard the voice of reason (yours) and still goes on their merry way of service to others and believing God loves them and there are real live prophets in these latter days were never people at all but are swine?

[Brad]

whoops double post. sorry. See below.

[Brad]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that you probably never had ice cream when you were a child....or I would but I don't think that's allowed.

Is this really your world view? Yipes. So basically what you are saying is anyone that has heard the voice of reason (yours) and still goes on their merry way of service to others and believing God loves them and there are real live prophets in these latter days were never people at all but are swine?

I ate ( and eat) ice cream all the time. Lol.

But I think a lot of you are missing my point. My point is that, without the atonement of Jesus covering us, all God looks down and sees is bad people. Yes, he loves us, that's why he sent his only son to die for us (John 3:16), but we all deserve hell. That's the point of grace. Think of it like this: If someone were to rape and kill one of your children, and you are sitting in court, waiting for that man to be sentenced, would you be willling to show the compassion to let him off scot free? Some might, but most wouldn't. Our culture today thirsts for justice, and it would be perfectly just and fair for God to send all of us to hell, because our sin is utterly despicable in his sight. That's the whole point to why Jesus's death and resurrection was so amazing...We are that person who raped and murdered someone's child, sitting in court waiting on our sentence, and God condemns his own son in our place so we can get off scot free. It's not fair at all, but that's why we call it Amazing Grace! I just find that so beautiful and amazing....

[volgadon]

Except that a murderer and rapist does not get off scot free.

[Brad]

Except that a murderer and rapist does not get off scot free.

You're still failing to see the point of the analogy....

And you're proving my point. Our laws demand justice, and God decides to be merciful to us and put the justice on his son instead of us. I'm paralleling the two...

I swear, I think the next thing you might say is, "But God doesn't ever go to court..."

It's an analogy, sort of similar to how Jesus spoke in parables. Don't be so dense.

[volgadon]

Oh he goes to court, certainly, he is the judge, but not every sin gets off scotch free. You are being dense. When Christ spoke in parables, he always hit the mark. Yours are way off.

[volgadon]

Are you going to answer my question about Judas?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

You're still failing to see the point of the analogy....

And you're proving my point. Our laws demand justice, and God decides to be merciful to us and put the justice on his son instead of us. I'm paralleling the two...

I swear, I think the next thing you might say is, "But God doesn't ever go to court..."

It's an analogy, sort of similar to how Jesus spoke in parables. Don't be so dense.

But our laws are based on the laws he gave us...as one Mormon scripture points out, if we do not repent then we must suffer even as he (Christ) suffered.

[Bytor]

I ate ( and eat) ice cream all the time. Lol.

But I think a lot of you are missing my point. My point is that, without the atonement of Jesus covering us, all God looks down and sees is bad people. Yes, he loves us, that's why he sent his only son to die for us (John 3:16), but we all deserve hell. That's the point of grace. Think of it like this: If someone were to rape and kill one of your children, and you are sitting in court, waiting for that man to be sentenced, would you be willling to show the compassion to let him off scot free? Some might, but most wouldn't. Our culture today thirsts for justice, and it would be perfectly just and fair for God to send all of us to hell, because our sin is utterly despicable in his sight. That's the whole point to why Jesus's death and resurrection was so amazing...We are that person who raped and murdered someone's child, sitting in court waiting on our sentence, and God condemns his own son in our place so we can get off scot free. It's not fair at all, but that's why we call it Amazing Grace! I just find that so beautiful and amazing....

You analogy is completely absurd and again your understanding of God is SO flawed and perverse. What does God see....in your skewed understanding.......when he looks down from the heavens and sees a new born child or a toddler? Does he see someone richly deserving to spend an eternity in a torturous never ending hell? Does he see a lost and fallen sinner?

[Brad]

You analogy is completely absurd and again your understanding of God is SO flawed and perverse. What does God see....in your skewed understanding.......when he looks down from the heavens and sees a new born child or a toddler? Does he see someone richly deserving to spend an eternity in a torturous never ending hell? Does he see a lost and fallen sinner?

Please use scripture to back up your accusations. Opinion is only that, an opinion.....and has no bearing on truth.

Check out Romans 3:10-18:

"10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17And the way of peace have they not known:

18There is no fear of God before their eyes."

You may think you are a good person here on this earth when you compare yourself to everyone else, but quite frankly, without Jesus, you wouldn't be anything other than a God-hating sinner, perfectly happy in your own sin.

[Brad]

You cannot really fault him though.. He is just following the heretical Luther instead of following Jesus Christ. These are the beliefs of all Lutherans. I would think it would be so depressing and sad to be a Lutheran, with how they view the world. I hope that one day his eyes are really opened and he really sees the love that Heavenly Father and Jesus have for everyone on this Earth: in the past, now and in the future.

I don't follow Luther - I follow Christ and I believe the Bible to be the inerrant Word of God. I happen to go to a Church that stemmed back to Luther a long, long time ago, but other than that, that's the only effect he's had on me. I haven't ever studied him, apart from reading his 95 Theses all the way through once.