Are there any valid criticisms?

[Pahoran]

In a recent closed thread, one of the more fanatical anti-Mormons offered the following as a criticism of the Church of Jesus Christ:

Christine Jonson, in accordance with a perfectly logical interpretation of Mormon beliefs, drowning her two young sons so they could â??attain the celestial Kingdomâ?

First of all, the killer's crazed skewing of LDS doctrine was not "a perfectly logical interpretation." On the contrary, it was highly irrational, and clearly reflects her abnormal psychology.

Facts regarding Ms. Jonson are scarce on the Internet. But she seems to have killed her children in a fit of depression. This is a medical condition that is not associated with any belief system. People who commit irrational acts subsequently explain them in terms of their belief systems, but the fact is that the irrational acts are not caused by those beliefs; they are, in fact, irrational.

Had Ms. Jonson's actions been controlled or significantly influenced by the teachings of the Church, she would not have killed her children. Because the relevant teaching here is, "Thou shalt not kill."

And an honest critic of the Church of Jesus Christ -- if such there is, or ever could be -- would admit this fact, and not attempt to exploit such a tragedy for polemical purposes.

As was done so brazenly and dishonestly here.

Unless, of course, I have misunderstood the criticism. Perhaps the critic in question thinks that a true doctrine would be immune to being misunderstood by someone whose rational faculties are impaired. If that is his position, then I shall attempt to disabuse him of such "magical thinking."

Regards,

Pahoran

[Uncle Dale]

...

I shall attempt to disabuse him of such "magical thinking."

Regards,

Pahoran

Then more power to you, friend.

The example of Abraham in the Bible is problematic for the mentally deranged.

Every now and then somebody will think they are hearing God's voice, asking

for the sacrifice of a child. And every now and then, somebody will follow through,

without bothering to seek out a "lamb caught up in the thicket."

Your Uncle Dale

[Thinking]

Had Ms. Jonson's actions been controlled or significantly influenced by the teachings of the Church, she would not have killed her children. Because the relevant teaching here is, "Thou shalt not kill."

And an honest critic of the Church of Jesus Christ -- if such there is, or ever could be -- would admit this fact, and not attempt to exploit such a tragedy for polemical purposes.

This critic believes that every large organization has people who do stupid things. The LDS church is no exception and Ms. Johnson's actions are irrelevant to the truth claims of the church.

-- if such there is, or ever could be --

You couldn't resist!

[bluebell]

I don't think it's ever logical for someone to kill their children.

[LifeOnaPlate]

This critic believes that every large organization has people who do stupid things. The LDS church is no exception and Ms. Johnson's actions are irrelevant to the truth claims of the church.

On this point I would agree with "the critic."

[Pahoran]

This critic believes that every large organization has people who do stupid things. The LDS church is no exception and Ms. Johnson's actions are irrelevant to the truth claims of the church.

Thank you. I agree.

You couldn't resist!

It's just a matter of being suitably tentative.

Regards,

Pahoran

[cinepro]

If the doctrine is correct...

10 And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven.

...then a person could make a rational choice to forfeit their salvation but ensure the salvation of a child.

That is logical.

Terrible, but logical.

[bluebell]

If the doctrine is correct...

...then a person could make a rational choice to forfeit their salvation but ensure the salvation of a child.

That is logical.

Terrible, but logical.

Has anyone who wasn't suffering from a mental illness ever made that 'rational' decision? And if not, how can we call something 'rational' when only mentally ill people do it?

[Avatar4321]

If the doctrine is correct...

...then a person could make a rational choice to forfeit their salvation but ensure the salvation of a child.

That is logical.

Terrible, but logical.

Let's think about this rationally.

You have a choice between:

Giving up your salvation so that your children can be saved

or

Embracing your salvation so your children can be saved.

Hmmm, Which is more rational.

[Scottie]

There is plenty of doctrine in all religions that a mentally unstable person could use to justify any kind of outragous act. Millions have died in the name of God.

I don't think it's fair to point out this one incident and claim that LDS teachings are responsible.

[Nyal]

Let's think about this rationally.

You have a choice between:

Giving up your salvation so that your children can be saved

or

Embracing your salvation so your children can be saved.

Hmmm, Which is more rational.

Giving up your salvation so that your children can be saved

or

Embracing your salvation so that your children MIGHT be saved.

It's a question of playing the odds.

[Jeff K.]

First of all, the killer's crazed skewing of LDS doctrine was not "a perfectly logical interpretation." On the contrary, it was highly irrational, and clearly reflects her abnormal psychology.

The fact the person considered a heinous act by a sick individual to be perfectly logical speaks volumes of the person, not the act, or religion.

[Jeff K.]

Giving up your salvation so that your children can be saved

or

Embracing your salvation so that your children MIGHT be saved.

It's a question of playing the odds.

No, it is neither so simplistic nor a question of the odds. It is a question of choice. By deliberately ensuring that any other children or people under your responsibility lose the opportunity for you to teach them, you actually cause greater harm to those you would have loved had you known them.

The simplistic view is incredibly stupid.

[SeattleGhostWriter]

I have never heard of this lady who killed her two children.

However, I find it rather pathetic that a critic would use such fallacious assumptions to debase the religious belief system of many without even having thought out the ramifications of their illfounded conclusions.

It is not the evidence that we present that convinces them that they are in error, rather it is their own irrational delusions and interpretations that they blindly feel we are in error because of their gross misrepresentations of stating opinions as facts while disregarding facts and labeling those facts as opinions.

[Ceeboo]

There is plenty of doctrine in all religions that a mentally unstable person could use to justify any kind of outragous act. Millions have died in the name of God.

I don't think it's fair to point out this one incident and claim that LDS teachings are responsible.

A very fair and reasonable contribution, IMHO. ( Thanks for that )

Peace,

Ceeboo

[BCSpace]

First of all, the killer's crazed skewing of LDS doctrine was not "a perfectly logical interpretation." On the contrary, it was highly irrational, and clearly reflects her abnormal psychology.

While I think the criticism is irrational, the mother's behavior was quite rational vis a vis LDS doctrine.

Facts regarding Ms. Jonson are scarce on the Internet. But she seems to have killed her children in a fit of depression. This is a medical condition that is not associated with any belief system. People who commit irrational acts subsequently explain them in terms of their belief systems, but the fact is that the irrational acts are not caused by those beliefs; they are, in fact, irrational.

Are there not punishments for irrational behavior in the gospel? Are we not born with weaknesses?

[ttribe]

There is plenty of doctrine in all religions that a mentally unstable person could use to justify any kind of outragous act. Millions have died in the name of God.

I don't think it's fair to point out this one incident and claim that LDS teachings are responsible.

Thank you. I pointed this very fact out (although I broadened beyond just religion) to Dr.W in another thread where he brought it up (it's one of his "favorites") and it went unaddressed by him...perhaps you will have more luck since you, apparently, are not subject to the same biases he believes me to be a victim of.

[beastie]

I came out of retirement just for this thread.

Pahoran - would you ever use the tragedy of a mentally ill man killing his family to try and make a case against "anti-mormons"?

[Scottie]

I came out of retirement just for this thread.

Pahoran - would you ever use the tragedy of a mentally ill man killing his family to try and make a case against exmormons?

Oooooo... I smell a battle coming!!! * grabs popcorn *

[selek]

I don't think it's ever logical for someone to kill their children.

You may find your horizons broadened once they become teen agers. That having been said, I shall set aside sarcasm and tongue-in-cheek entirely and thank Scottie and Thinking for thier integrity in this thread. While we do not see eye-to-eye even on the color of an orange, and have clashed loudly and heatedly, I am happy to know that there are men such as these among our critics. Such is the consequence of letting me watch Cyrano before posting. And then, of course Beastly slinks in to soil the rug and offer a contrast to their courage.

[Ceeboo]

I came out of retirement just for this thread.

God bless you for that !!!!

RETIREMENT !!!!! ( Can't wait, only 24 more years and I am there, God willing )

Peace,

Ceeboo

[Nyal]

You may find your horizons broadened once they become teen agers. That having been said, I shall set aside sarcasm and tongue-in-cheek entirely and thank Scottie and Thinking for thier integrity in this thread. While we do not see eye-to-eye even on the color of an orange, and have clashed loudly and heatedly, I am happy to know that there are men such as these among our critics. Such is the consequence of letting me watch Cyrano before posting. And then, of course Beastly slinks in to soil the rug and offer a contrast to their courage.

Does insulting folks who are differing from you make you feel a buzz? Beastie is smart and thoughtful.

[beastie]

RETIREMENT !!!!! ( Can't wait, only 24 more years and I am there, God willing )

Not that kind of retirement, unfortunately. Just a retirement from this board.

I'm not interested in doing battle over this. I agree with the posters who have stated that there are tragedies everywhere, and seriously mentally ill people can be found anywhere.

I was simply pointing out that Pahoran isn't exactly the best candidate to be expressing moral outrage over someone using a tragedy involving a mentally ill person to make a point about Mormonism. You see, when Pahoran, himself, used a mentally ill person who had also murdered his family to make a point about apostates, he neglected to inform readers that the murderer was, in fact, mentally ill.

I'll just share details from Pahoran's past use of a mentally ill individual to make a point against apostates, and let readers judge for themselves.

http://pacumenispages.yuku.com/reply/143849#reply-143849

The context was apostates falsely accusing the church of breaking up their marriage. Pahoran made this statement:

My experience is that the person telling the pack of lies that "the Church broke up my marriage (sob)" either has committed adultery, was abusive or is a miserable anti-mormon tyrant.

When I questioned what his experience was, exactly, in order to justify such a generalization, this was his reply:

Sorry to burst your bubble, but when apostates decide to malign the Church by falsely accusing it of breaking up their marriages, they do not usually confine their slanders to confidential disclosures that I would only learn if I were the close personal confidant of each one of them. Rather, they tend to broadcast these accusations quite promiscuously. Ed Decker is a rather well-known case in point--he made this accusation almost as promiscuously as he lived his personal life. However, his much-maligned ex-wife reports that her bishop kept encouraging her to forgive him and stick by him through all his string of affairs, and even after he fell away from the Church. Which not only refutes Ed, but it has added credibility (not that it needs it--Ed has negative credibility, which means that his disagreeing with any assertion adds weight to the claim that it is true) because it is consistent with the clear, unequivocal and emphatic policy of the Church.

But I do not rest my categorical statement upon that case alone. I know of many others. One occurred in my own family. Another occurred in a family I home-taught. Still another happened in a matter where I sat on the disciplinary council. One rather notorious case happened when I lived in Australia, wherein the apostate husband murdered his wife and children, then burned the house down with them in it. In that particular case, the bishop in question did in fact finally advise the wife to leave her increasingly abusive husband, but she didn't move quickly enough.

And there are others as well. But I'm sure that won't deter you from making some under-the-radar slur against my veracity. After all, why stop such an ingrained habit now?

Another poster helpfully provided background information to the case, which is as follows:

Copyright 1994 Nationwide News Pty Limited

The Advertiser

July 11, 1994 Monday

Bishop Tempany, of the Knox ward of the Mormon Church, said Mrs Manna wrote: "Bishop, if I die, if I'm killed; I want you to know that he has threatened to kill me." "She felt it might happen . . . the last time I met her she said 'I don't know what to do. I love my husband, I have loyalty to my husband, but I can see the life I am living is desperately tragic, desperately sad. I'm not happy, what do I do?' "She said half-jokingly last week: 'Next time I see you, I'll meet you in the spirit world'." Bishop Tempany said Manna had been ex-communicated from the Mormon church about 12 months ago for "reputed child and wife abuse".

Bishop Tempany said Manna had been in psychiatric hospitals and had become violent and abusive since he stopped taking medication for schizophrenia 12 months ago.Copyright 1995 Nationwide News Pty Limited

Herald Sun

June 10, 1995 Saturday

THEY separated after Nilla's 21st birthday, but later reconciled, and in February 1984, Ida was born. Chiarina arrived three years later and John-Carmine nearly two years after that. But by 1987 Gino's mental illness began to manifest itself. He became obsessed with thoughts of Armageddon and began to fear for the family's safety.

In 1988 he drove them to Wagga Wagga, fearing the end was nigh. His concerned brothers pursued them and had to force him to hospital for treatment. During a struggle Gino stabbed his brother Joseph. From then, Gino began receiving regular psychiatric treatment. He managed to appear rational and compliant to his treating doctors - but to others he was a "Rambo" who would stalk the streets in army greens and threaten neighbors. Gino, who had always been religious, and his family joined the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (the Mormons) in 1990 and Gino became very involved in church activities. Church members who became friendly with Nilla told the coroner this week of her sad life. "Gino ruled his family in a cruel and patriarchal manner," Mr Jeffrey Tempany, the then bishop of the Knox ward, said.

The Mormons excommunicated Gino in 1993 after deciding he was "guilty of conduct unbecoming a member of the church". But the church denied allegations that they had cut him off, sparking his anger and leading to the family's demise. Joseph Manna, one of Gino's six siblings, said that before his involvement with the church, they had been able to "get through" to Gino if they tried hard. Mr Manna said both Gino and Nilla had been vulnerable - and the church exploited their needs. "I believe that they were seriously brainwashed to the point they shut the doors on myself and my family," he said. After the fire, Mr Manna found "amazing" literature in the house about the end of the world and how they should prepare.

Gino stored large amounts of food and water in the house - the church said this was to prepare for times of hardship, but others feel it was to prepare for the end. "In the opinion of myself and my family, they (the church) had a great deal to do with their deaths," Mr Manna said. But Mr Tempany believes the church did all it could to help the Manna family. The coroner found the church had acted properly in excommunicating Gino, but still welcoming him into the services.

"In an ideal world there could have been some kind of monitoring where, if he wasn't taking his medication, his wife had the power to ask someone to do something about it," he said....

One woman who befriended Mrs Manna said she was a private person, "but not by choice".

"Self-preservation ruled," the neighbor, who did not want to be named, said.

"Nilla knew what the repercussions of having friends would be.

"She never really spoke about leaving Gino because he had threatened he would find her wherever she went." The woman said Manna seemed the type of husband who enjoyed the thrill of power and was obsessed with physical fitness. He did not drink or smoke.

He would not let his wife drive his V8 Holden, which often meant she had to walk her three children to school in the rain.

"Nilla used to tell me how he loved denigrating her by doing things like saying women with long hair were dumb, knowing she had long hair," she said.

"And he used the Mormon religion to have power over his wife and children, using the teachings to tell them how they should live their lives.

"A lot of his friends were Arabs. He mixed with the type of men that would keep their wives under the thumb." Ross and Phyllis Hookey, who lived two doors up from the Mannas, agreed Gino Manna enjoyed power. "They had a lot of dogs in his backyard and we know he beat at least one of them to death," Mr Hookey said.

He may have loved her once but towards the end there was a lot of hate when he spoke of her," Mr Accetto said.

"It was her side of the family who had all the money and she owned the house.

"He was ferociously possessive of that house, it was his land and his home and he was telling me the Mormons were trying to take his house from him by getting her to hand it over to them.

MR MANNA had written scriptures on the walls of the house and believed he played a pivotal role in world affairs.

A NOTE was found in the laundry of the house including the words "Let the loved ones RIP".

Police said they had been called to the home up to 30 times in the 18 months before the tragedy to intervene in domestic disputes and had unsuccessfully searched the house for firearms.

Family friends told the court that Mrs Manna had been urged to leave her husband many times, but had refused because she feared for the safety of her own family.

Police had also offered to help her escape from her husband.

Mr Jeffrey Tempany, a senior member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, also known as the Mormon church, said Mr Manna had been excommunicated for "conduct unbecoming". "He was isolating his family from society," he said.

"Gino ruled his family in a cruel patriarchal manner.

"No one was to tell Gino what to do . . . he said he was the husband and could do what he wanted.

Mr Jeffrey Tempany, a senior member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, also known as the Mormon church, said Mr Manna had been excommunicated for "conduct unbecoming". "He was isolating his family from society," he said.

Copyright 1995 Nationwide News Pty Limited

The Advertiser

June 6, 1995 Tuesday

Mental illness is cruel in so many ways. Gone untreated, it robs its victims of any sort of decent life. It's even more tragic when the end result is the complete loss of lives. Mental illness will find a way to express itself within the culture and background of the particular victim, no matter what it is.

Now, back into retirement.

BTW, you have to be registered on the yuku board for the link to work.

PS, thanks, Nyal.

[selek]

Does insulting folks who are differing from you make you feel a buzz?

I say no, for it is not those who differ from me that are the target of my wit- poor rag though it be-, but the uncouth, the deceitful, the rapacious, the dishonest, the schemer, the liar, the jackal, the fraud and the fool. As such, you may find Beastie to be august company, but her post remains nonetheless, a stain, a blight, and a missive unworthy even of burning. Differ with me and we have no quarrel. Despise me and I'll think you a fool. Slander me and understand that you stand on dangerous ground.

Beastie is smart and thoughtful.

Smart? Thoughtful? I say to you nay- she is neither. She is clever. She is crafty. She is cunning and gifted with the serpent's own tongue to the twisting of words and truth to the service of deceit and treachery. Yet for all her eloquence, her skill at heaping up TRUTH could not mount up a pile of crumbs fit for a starving mouse.

Now, Montfleury , back to the play.

[MorningStar]

That argument is sickening to me. The belief that babies go to the Celestial Kingdom is just part of our doctrine. A rational thinking person wouldn't be able to inflict harm on their child, give up the chance to be with them for eternity, or interfere with their progression - all the many wonderful experiences life has to offer. A rational thinking person wouldn't rob their children of the chance to get married and have children of their own.

It's as offensive as saying an Atheist would kill because they don't believe in commandments or that Evangelicals would kill because they believe they can just be forgiven afterwards. Way lame.