Jump to content
Seriously No Politics ×

Brigham Young: "I am the voice of God. And anyone who doesn't like it will be hewn down."

smac97

By smac97
in Miscellaneous

Recommended Posts

smac97 Grand Master

smac97

Posted
Posted

When September Dawn came out in 2007, I was struck with a particular line in the film attributed to Brigham Young:

I am the voice of God. And anyone who doesn't like it will be hewn down."

I thought it odd that I had never heard of this quote before, particularly given that we have so many critics who are only too willing to cull soundbites from early LDS leaders in an attempt to make us look bad.

I started to do a bit of online research. The only reference I could find for this quote was one of the newsletters from Utah Lighthouse Ministries. Specifically, in the "Letters to the Editor" section, I found this letter from an anonymous author to Sandra Tanner:

Nov. 28, 2004

Sandra, I'm sorry to bother you but I'm having a difficult time finding the reference to this statement by Brigham Young and wondered if you would know off-hand, where it came from so I can look it up. Was it the JOD? If so, when and what pages? Thank you so much. I'm going crazy trying to find it.

"I am the voice of God and anyone who doesn't like it will be hewn down. God has revealed to me that I have the right and power to call down curses on anyone who tries to invade our lands. Therefore, I curse the Gentiles."

Also

"We are gathered here to build up the Kingdom of God. It exalts God that he has planted this people in a place that is not desired by the wicked. Until this moment, I have protected emigrants who have passed through this territory, but now, I will loose the Indians upon them! And if any miserable scoundrels come here to our Zion, cut their throats!"

Sandra Tanner responded that she was "not familiar with the quotes."

My interest in tracking down the source of this quote was renewed this morning when I came across a New York Times article, "With Only God Left as a Witness," by John Anderson (published on January 22, 2006, available online here). The director of the film, Christopher Cain, has this to say:

''And by the way,'' Mr. Cain said, ''I didn't write any of his dialogue,'' explaining that it was all in the depositions that Young gave after the massacre. ''I sat here watching this a couple of weeks ago and I was thinking: 'Maybe I made that up. I don't think he would have said that.' And I went back and pulled it up and, man, he did.''

Cain repeated his assertion of authentically quoting Brigham Young here. Some excerpts:

Cain was determined to portray the historical facts accurately and looked to many sources on which to base his script. He settled on a 27-page confession by John D. Lee, the only person convicted for his part in the carnage. He also tapped the actual transcripts of Brigham Youngâ??s speeches and sermons from the time. "If any miserable scoundrels come here, cut their throats,â? was the message in Youngâ??s "Blood Atonement Sermonâ? found in the Journal of Discourses, Vol. II, page 311.

...

Using the Mormon leaderâ??s own words, Cain incorporated that attitude into the script, "
Youngâ??s words are taken verbatim from his preaching, sermons and writings.
I donâ??t think I would have believed the things that were being said at the time, if they hadnâ??t been historically and factually recorded,â? Cain observed. "
But, you can look up the quotes
.â?

...

Citing more research directly from The Churchâ??s archives, Cain noted, "The other document that was the most damning was Brigham Youngâ??s deposition. If you read his deposition and compare that to what was coming out of his speeches at that time, clearly he was urging this kind of behavior. At the same time Young is saying that he knew nothing about the massacre.â? From what Cain surmised, this was not true, as illustrated in a quote from one of Youngâ??s transcripts where he says, "I will loose the Indians on them, we will slit their throats from ear to ear.â?
Young also declared himself to be "the voice of God, and anyone who doesnâ??t like it will be hewn down
.â?

During a radio interview of Cain, a caller called in and asked about this specific "hewn down" quotation. Here's a transcript of the exchange:

LM: Before I take issue with ya, I want to say that I agree with you folks that it is important to search out the roots of stuff like this when they happen, even if they happen to one of your own. I am a Mormon, and coming to grips with this has been quite a challenge.

The issue I want to take, is when you look at the trailer, the scene opens with a Brigham Young comment, something to the tune of "I am the Voice of God, and anyone who doesn't like it will be hewn down". Where did that quote come from?

HH: Chris Cain?

CC: I don't have the quote in front of me... I can't tell you exactly... I should have brought the quotes with me, but I didn't bring them.

HH: But you're certain it's a quote from a published and reputable source?

CC: Yes.

LM: Well, let me tell you where I'm coming from. I participate regularly in an apologetic message board where the critics and the apologists come together, and both 'sides of the aisle' have tried to search the source of this quote, and we can't find anything older than a couple of years. It seems to have not existed until a couple of years ago.

HH: Chris, will you send me what you believe to be the source of that, and I'll make sure I post that at Hughhewitt.com? (CC says yes) I hope that works for you, Rob, because we can't get to the bottom of that now, but I'll look up, and I will follow up on it.

And then there was an interview of the film's star, Jon Voight, by blogger Hugh Hewitt. In this interview Mr. Voight echoed Cain's claims that none of Brigham Young's dialog was fabricated (emphasis added):

And thereâ??s a tremendous amount of work thatâ??s been done on it, even recently. Thereâ??s a wonderful book by Will Bagley called The Blood of the Prophets. And people can read this stuff, and hopefully they will. They will see the film and they will go and do their own work on it.
But every word that is spoken by Brigham Young in the film was spoken by Brigham Young at the time around the Massacre.
And that itself is quite shocking if you, having been introduced to this story, in the way that you have, you will be able to see how he responded to the questioning of the government people who came to check it out, and the sermons that were around that event. So itâ??s very interesting stuff.

All this piqued my curiosity even further, so I dug a little deeper by sending an email to the screenwriter, Carole Whang Schutter. She did not respond, so I sent an email to her press agent (Helen), who sent this response:

Spencer,

Here is the answer to your question and a little added information.

It came from Sally Denton's book "American Massacre: The Tragedy at Mountain Meadows."She is a highly thought of Investigative Reporter who has written many best-selling historical books. I should have kept exactly where that came from but at the time, didn't think I was going to do a book. However, many of his sermons certainly were consistent with that particular phrase.

Joseph Smith also referred to himself as "god on earth," and "the voice of god," he said the prophets were "the voice of god." BY was a blind follower of Joseph and believed it.

Here is a statement one of the investors wrote:

All of the dialogue of Brigham Young in this movie is completely accurate and is taken from LDS documents except for one sentence. Everybody at the time
knew
he and Joseph Smith before him were the voices of God. The second clause of that sentence . . . â??and anyone who doesnâ??t like it will be hewn downâ? is a shorthand way of combining several statements made in the Blood Atonement sermons which he didnâ??t sugar coat. For example, he said, â??If any miserable scoundrels come here cut their throats.â? Sir Arthur Conan Doyle wrote a Sherlock Holmes meets the Mormons story called A Study in Scarlet in which he said , "In the meantime, remember that now and forever you are of our religion. Brigham Young has said it, and he has spoken with the voice of Joseph Smith, which is the voice of God."

There you have it: "The second clause of that sentence . . . 'and anyone who doesnâ??t like it will be hewn down' is a shorthand way of combining several statements made in the Blood Atonement sermons..."

Given that the quote was posted in a 2004 message on the Tanners' website, I was skeptical that Schutter just happened to use this exact wording as "a shorthand way of combining several statements made in the Blood Atonement sermons." I suspected that Schutter plagiarized the quote when she came across it on the Tanners' website and decided to incorporate it into the screenplay as an actual quote of Brigham Young.

Still, I wanted to know where Sally Denton got her citation for the "hewn down" quote. So I emailed Sally Denton:

I have run into a question regarding a quote in your book,
American Massacre: The Tragedy at Mountain Meadows, September 1857
.

Specifically, on page 105 of you book you state:
Young's church elders swept through the outlying communities in the winter of 1856-57 "in an orgy of recrimination and rebaptism," as one account put it, followed by the constant scrutiny of those who had been found lacking. Young declared that all backsliders should be "hewn down."

The footnote for these two quotes (fn 105) refers to "Josiah F. Gibbs, The Mountain Meadows Massacre, 8ff." This book, published in 1910, is available for download from GoogleBooks here and is also available for online viewing here.

I have reviewed this source and cannot find either of the quotes you attribute to it ("in an orgy of recrimination and rebaptism" and "backsliders should be 'hewn down'").

Can you point me to the page number in Gibbs's book where you found these two quotes?I received no response, so after a long while (more than a year), I re-sent this email and received a prompt response from Ms. Denton. She told me that she wrote her book many years ago, that she no longer has access to the research files for it, and that if the endnotes cite Josiah Gibbs then the "hewn down" quote appeared in an edition of the Gibbs book.

I had already read the book by Gibbs, so I knew Denton was incorrect. So I dug still deeper and then responded to Ms. Denton with my results:

Dear Ms. Denton:

Thank you for your response. I wonder if there might be a minor error in attribution here. I have reviewed the referenced source by Mr. Gibbs (available for download from GoogleBooks
and for online viewing
) and have not found the two quotations ("in an orgy of recrimination and rebaptism" and "backsliders should be 'hewn down'"). The Library of Congress only shows one published edition of
The Mountain Meadows Massacre
by Josiah Gibbs, so I think the edition published in 1910 is the only version of that book.

However, Mr. Gibbs wrote another book,
Lights and Shadows of Mormonism
(an online version is available
). On page 200 of this publication, Mr. Gibbs quotes from a passage in the Journal of Discourses (Vol. III, page 266):
That Brigham Young had no respect for the rights of saint or sinner, when those rights were in conflict with his preconceived ideas of what the Almighty wanted, has been abundantly proved by execrpta already taken from his sermons. In every sense of the word, Brigham Young was a religious despot. The laws of his country, the rights of those of other religious beliefs, were, in his opinion, all subservient to the laws of God of which he was the sole earthly interpreter and executioner. There is not the slightest doubt that he intended, and in some instances did, "lay judgment to the line and righteousness to the plummet." And to show exactly what the last quotation meant, the following excerpt is given: "The time is coming when justice will be laid to the line and righteousness to the plummet; when we shall take the old broadsword and ask, 'Are you for God?' And if you are not heartily on the Lord's side, you WILL BE HEWN DOWN."â??"Journal of Discourses," Vol. III, page 266.

Is it possible that Lights and Shadows, rather than The Mountain Meadows Massacre, was the actual source of the "hewn down" quotation?

Actually, I think it the better atttribution for the "hewn down" comment would be the Journal of Discourses (since that is the source Gibbs was quoting). Further, the citation provided by Mr. Gibbs is slightly incorrect. The quotation is from page 226 of Volume III (rather than page 266). (A scanned copy of Volume III is available here.)

As for the other quotation ("orgy of recrimination and rebaptism"), I have not found this quote in either of the books written by Mr. Gibbs. However, this appears to be a bit of editorializing by Mr. Gibbs, so I am not interested in it as much as the "hewn down" quotation.

You may be interested to know that your book's citation to Brigham Young's warning to "backsliders" (that they "should be 'hewn down'") was used by the screenwriter of the movie September Dawn to create what she (and the director, and the star, Jon Voight) claimed is an actual quote from Brigham Young: "I am the voice of God. And anyone who doesn't like it will be hewn down." This line was used in the movie's trailer and was prominent in the advertising campaign for the movie.

Anyway, I thank you for your time.

In sum:

1. The quote attributed to Brigham Young (specifically, "And anyone who doesn't like it will be hewn down") is a fabrication.

2. This quote did not originate with Brigham Young. Or with the screenwriter (Carole Schutter). Or with Sally Denton. Or with Sally Denton's source (Josiah F. Gibbs). It was instead plagiarized by Ms. Schutter from an anonymous letter which was sent to Sandra Tanner and posted on her website. Here is the quote as it appears in the anonymous 2004 letter posted on the Tanners' website:

"I am the voice of God and anyone who doesn't like it will be hewn down. God has revealed to me that I have the right and power to call down curses on anyone who tries to invade our lands. Therefore, I curse the Gentiles."

And here is the quote from the movie (transcribed here):

"I am the voice of God, and anyone who doesnâ??t like it will be hewn down. God has revealed to me that I have the right and the power to call down curses on anyone who tries to invade our lands. Therefore, I curse the gentiles."

The likelihood of coincidence is pretty darn low. Schutter's agent claims: "All of the dialogue of Brigham Young in this movie is completely accurate and is taken from LDS documents except for one sentence. Everybody at the time knew he and Joseph Smith before him were the voices of God. The second clause of that sentence . . . 'and anyone who doesnâ??t like it will be hewn down' is a shorthand way of combining several statements made in the Blood Atonement sermons..."

I think "a shorthand way" is a not-so-subtle way of saying "My client plagiarized a specious quote from an anonymous letter on an anti-mormon website and then passed it off as an authentic statement by Brigham Young."

3. The only way Schutter can avoid a charge of plagiarism is if she was the author of the 2004 anonymous letter to the Tanners. This is actually a pretty plausible explanation. Note that the anonymous letter includes two alleged quotes attributed to Brigham Young. Here's the other one:

"We are gathered here to build up the Kingdom of God. It exalts God that he has planted this people in a place that is not desired by the wicked. Until this moment, I have protected emigrants who have passed through this territory, but now, I will loose the Indians upon them! And if any miserable scoundrels come here to our Zion, cut their throats!"

Now compare that quote with this excerpt from page 42 of the novelization of the movie:

Brigham lifted his eyes toward heaven and pronounced, "We are gathered here to build up the kingdom of god. It exalts god that he has planted this people ina place that is not desired by the wicked." Lowering his eyes, he leaned over with a fierce look. "Until this moment, I have protected emigrants who have passed through this territory, but now..." He again raised his eyes and one hand in supplication to the sky. Then, dropping his hand, he turned and scowled at the men and added threateningly, "Now I will loose the Indians upon them! And if any miserable scoundrels come here to our Zion, cut their throats!"

So both quotes supposedly written by Schutter are verbatim restatements of the quotes from the anonymous 2004 letter to the Tanners. Either Schutter is a plagiarist (if she did not write the letter), or a fabricator (if she did).

4. Sandra Tanner was apparently hired by the production as an "advisor" for the film. I wonder if she signed off on these fabricated quotes (particularly given that she has specifically addressed them in 2004).

5. The various statements by the Chris Cain and Jon Voight to the effect that "every word that is spoken by Brigham Young in the film was spoken by Brigham Young at the time around the Massacre" are not true.

6. This fabricated quote becomes perhaps the best-known line from the movie. It's the opening line in the movie's trailer. The clip of the actor speaking the line is available on Yahoo!Movies. It's repeatedly referred to by various news media and others as a legitimate quote of Brigham Young's words (see, e.g., here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here and here). The film's online production notes give this quote as an authentic statement from Brigham Young.

7. Critics of the LDS Church have picked up this quote and are using it as ammunition against the Church. See, e.g., here:

While the Mormon Church would like to downplay Brigham Youngâ??s role in the massacre, it could never have happened without his endorsement. Young actually considered himself to be a god to the Mormon people. Here are a couple of quotes of Brigham himself:

â??Jehovah created me to be your God on earth.â?

â??I am the voice of God. And anyone who doesnâ??t like it will be hewn down.â?

8. MRM did voice some mild skepticism about this quote's provenance. This quote is also listed as "fictitious" on WikiQuotes.

Thanks,

-Smac

JLFuller Rookie

JLFuller

Posted
Posted
When September Dawn came out in 2007, I was struck with a particular line in the film attributed to Brigham Young:

I am the voice of God. And anyone who doesn't like it will be hewn down."

I thought it odd that I had never heard of this quote before, particularly given that we have so many critics who are only too willing to cull soundbites from early LDS leaders in an attempt to make us look bad.

I started to do a bit of online research. The only reference I could find for this quote was one of the newsletters from Utah Lighthouse Ministries. Specifically, in the "Letters to the Editor" section, I found this letter from an anonymous author to Sandra Tanner:

Nov. 28, 2004

Sandra, I'm sorry to bother you but I'm having a difficult time finding the reference to this statement by Brigham Young and wondered if you would know off-hand, where it came from so I can look it up. Was it the JOD? If so, when and what pages? Thank you so much. I'm going crazy trying to find it.

"I am the voice of God and anyone who doesn't like it will be hewn down. God has revealed to me that I have the right and power to call down curses on anyone who tries to invade our lands. Therefore, I curse the Gentiles."

Also

"We are gathered here to build up the Kingdom of God. It exalts God that he has planted this people in a place that is not desired by the wicked. Until this moment, I have protected emigrants who have passed through this territory, but now, I will loose the Indians upon them! And if any miserable scoundrels come here to our Zion, cut their throats!"

Sandra Tanner responded that she was "not familiar with the quotes."

My interest in tracking down the source of this quote was renewed this morning when I came across a New York Times article, "With Only God Left as a Witness," by John Anderson (published on January 22, 2006, available online here). The director of the film, Christopher Cain, has this to say:

''And by the way,'' Mr. Cain said, ''I didn't write any of his dialogue,'' explaining that it was all in the depositions that Young gave after the massacre. ''I sat here watching this a couple of weeks ago and I was thinking: 'Maybe I made that up. I don't think he would have said that.' And I went back and pulled it up and, man, he did.''

Cain repeated his assertion of authentically quoting Brigham Young here. Some excerpts:

Cain was determined to portray the historical facts accurately and looked to many sources on which to base his script. He settled on a 27-page confession by John D. Lee, the only person convicted for his part in the carnage. He also tapped the actual transcripts of Brigham Youngâ??s speeches and sermons from the time. "If any miserable scoundrels come here, cut their throats,â? was the message in Youngâ??s "Blood Atonement Sermonâ? found in the Journal of Discourses, Vol. II, page 311.

...

Using the Mormon leaderâ??s own words, Cain incorporated that attitude into the script, "
Youngâ??s words are taken verbatim from his preaching, sermons and writings.
I donâ??t think I would have believed the things that were being said at the time, if they hadnâ??t been historically and factually recorded,â? Cain observed. "
But, you can look up the quotes
.â?

...

Citing more research directly from The Churchâ??s archives, Cain noted, "The other document that was the most damning was Brigham Youngâ??s deposition. If you read his deposition and compare that to what was coming out of his speeches at that time, clearly he was urging this kind of behavior. At the same time Young is saying that he knew nothing about the massacre.â? From what Cain surmised, this was not true, as illustrated in a quote from one of Youngâ??s transcripts where he says, "I will loose the Indians on them, we will slit their throats from ear to ear.â?
Young also declared himself to be "the voice of God, and anyone who doesnâ??t like it will be hewn down
.â?

During a radio interview of Cain, a caller called in and asked about this specific "hewn down" quotation. Here's a transcript of the exchange:

LM: Before I take issue with ya, I want to say that I agree with you folks that it is important to search out the roots of stuff like this when they happen, even if they happen to one of your own. I am a Mormon, and coming to grips with this has been quite a challenge.

The issue I want to take, is when you look at the trailer, the scene opens with a Brigham Young comment, something to the tune of "I am the Voice of God, and anyone who doesn't like it will be hewn down". Where did that quote come from?

HH: Chris Cain?

CC: I don't have the quote in front of me... I can't tell you exactly... I should have brought the quotes with me, but I didn't bring them.

HH: But you're certain it's a quote from a published and reputable source?

CC: Yes.

LM: Well, let me tell you where I'm coming from. I participate regularly in an apologetic message board where the critics and the apologists come together, and both 'sides of the aisle' have tried to search the source of this quote, and we can't find anything older than a couple of years. It seems to have not existed until a couple of years ago.

HH: Chris, will you send me what you believe to be the source of that, and I'll make sure I post that at Hughhewitt.com? (CC says yes) I hope that works for you, Rob, because we can't get to the bottom of that now, but I'll look up, and I will follow up on it.

And then there was an interview of the film's star, Jon Voight, by blogger Hugh Hewitt. In this interview Mr. Voight echoed Cain's claims that none of Brigham Young's dialog was fabricated (emphasis added):

And thereâ??s a tremendous amount of work thatâ??s been done on it, even recently. Thereâ??s a wonderful book by Will Bagley called The Blood of the Prophets. And people can read this stuff, and hopefully they will. They will see the film and they will go and do their own work on it.
But every word that is spoken by Brigham Young in the film was spoken by Brigham Young at the time around the Massacre.
And that itself is quite shocking if you, having been introduced to this story, in the way that you have, you will be able to see how he responded to the questioning of the government people who came to check it out, and the sermons that were around that event. So itâ??s very interesting stuff.

All this piqued my curiosity even further, so I dug a little deeper by sending an email to the screenwriter, Carole Whang Schutter. She did not respond, so I sent an email to her press agent (Helen), who sent this response:

Spencer,

Here is the answer to your question and a little added information.

It came from Sally Denton's book "American Massacre: The Tragedy at Mountain Meadows."She is a highly thought of Investigative Reporter who has written many best-selling historical books. I should have kept exactly where that came from but at the time, didn't think I was going to do a book. However, many of his sermons certainly were consistent with that particular phrase.

Joseph Smith also referred to himself as "god on earth," and "the voice of god," he said the prophets were "the voice of god." BY was a blind follower of Joseph and believed it.

Here is a statement one of the investors wrote:

All of the dialogue of Brigham Young in this movie is completely accurate and is taken from LDS documents except for one sentence. Everybody at the time
knew
he and Joseph Smith before him were the voices of God. The second clause of that sentence . . . â??and anyone who doesnâ??t like it will be hewn downâ? is a shorthand way of combining several statements made in the Blood Atonement sermons which he didnâ??t sugar coat. For example, he said, â??If any miserable scoundrels come here cut their throats.â? Sir Arthur Conan Doyle wrote a Sherlock Holmes meets the Mormons story called A Study in Scarlet in which he said , "In the meantime, remember that now and forever you are of our religion. Brigham Young has said it, and he has spoken with the voice of Joseph Smith, which is the voice of God."

There you have it: "The second clause of that sentence . . . 'and anyone who doesnâ??t like it will be hewn down' is a shorthand way of combining several statements made in the Blood Atonement sermons..."

Given that the quote was posted in a 2004 message on the Tanners' message board, I was skeptical that Schutter just happened to use this exact wording as "a shorthand way of combining several statements made in the Blood Atonement sermons." I suspected that Schutter plagiarized the quote when she came across it on the Tanners' website and decided to incorporate it into the screenplay as an actual quote of Brigham Young.

Still, I wanted to know where Sally Denton got her citation for the "hewn down" quote. So I emailed Sally Denton:

I have run into a question regarding a quote in your book,
American Massacre: The Tragedy at Mountain Meadows, September 1857
.

Specifically, on page 105 of you book you state:
Young's church elders swept through the outlying communities in the winter of 1856-57 "in an orgy of recrimination and rebaptism," as one account put it, followed by the constant scrutiny of those who had been found lacking. Young declared that all backsliders should be "hewn down."

The footnote for these two quotes (fn 105) refers to "Josiah F. Gibbs, The Mountain Meadows Massacre, 8ff." This book, published in 1910, is available for download from GoogleBooks here and is also available for online viewing here.

I have reviewed this source and cannot find either of the quotes you attribute to it ("in an orgy of recrimination and rebaptism" and "backsliders should be 'hewn down'").

Can you point me to the page number in Gibbs's book where you found these two quotes?I received no response, so after a long while (more than a year), I re-sent this email and received a prompt response from Ms. Denton. She told me that her book many years ago, that she no longer has access to the research files for it, and that if the endnotes cite Josiah Gibbs then the "hewn down" quote appeared in an edition of the Gibbs book.

I had already read the book by Gibbs, so I knew Denton was incorrect. So I dug still deeper and then responded to Ms. Denton with my results:

Dear Ms. Denton:

Thank you for your response. I wonder if there might be a minor error in attribution here. I have reviewed the referenced source by Mr. Gibbs (available for download from GoogleBooks
and for online viewing
) and have not found the two quotations ("in an orgy of recrimination and rebaptism" and "backsliders should be 'hewn down'"). The Library of Congress only shows one published edition of
The Mountain Meadows Massacre
by Josiah Gibbs, so I think the edition published in 1910 is the only version of that book.

However, Mr. Gibbs wrote another book,
Lights and Shadows of Mormonism
(an online version is available
). On page 200 of this publication, Mr. Gibbs quotes from a passage in the Journal of Discourses (Vol. III, page 266):
That Brigham Young had no respect for the rights of saint or sinner, when those rights were in conflict with his preconceived ideas of what the Almighty wanted, has been abundantly proved by execrpta already taken from his sermons. In every sense of the word, Brigham Young was a religious despot. The laws of his country, the rights of those of other religious beliefs, were, in his opinion, all subservient to the laws of God of which he was the sole earthly interpreter and executioner. There is not the slightest doubt that he intended, and in some instances did, "lay judgment to the line and righteousness to the plummet." And to show exactly what the last quotation meant, the following excerpt is given: "The time is coming when justice will be laid to the line and righteousness to the plummet; when we shall take the old broadsword and ask, 'Are you for God?' And if you are not heartily on the Lord's side, you WILL BE HEWN DOWN."â??"Journal of Discourses," Vol. III, page 266.

Is it possible that Lights and Shadows, rather than The Mountain Meadows Massacre, was the actual source of the "hewn down" quotation?

Actually, I think it the better atttribution for the "hewn down" comment would be the Journal of Discourses (since that is the source Gibbs was quoting). Further, the citation provided by Mr. Gibbs is slightly incorrect. The quotation is from page 226 of Volume III (rather than page 266). (A scanned copy of Volume III is available here.)

As for the other quotation ("orgy of recrimination and rebaptism"), I have not found this quote in either of the books written by Mr. Gibbs. However, this appears to be a bit of editorializing by Mr. Gibbs, so I am not interested in it as much as the "hewn down" quotation.

You may be interested to know that your book's citation to Brigham Young's warning to "backsliders" (that they "should be 'hewn down'") was used by the screenwriter of the movie September Dawn to create what she (and the director, and the star, Jon Voight) claimed is an actual quote from Brigham Young: "I am the voice of God. And anyone who doesn't like it will be hewn down." This line was used in the movie's trailer and was prominent in the advertising campaign for the movie.

Anyway, I thank you for your time.

In sum:

1. The quote attributed to Brigham Young (specifically, "And anyone who doesn't like it will be hewn down") is a fabrication.

2. This quote did not originate with Brigham Young. Or with the screenwriter (Carole Schutter). Or with Sally Denton. Or with Sally Denton's source (Josiah F. Gibbs). It was instead plagiarized by Ms. Schutter from an anonymous letter which was sent to Sandra Tanner and posted on her website.

3. The various statements by the Chris Cain and Jon Voight to the effect that "every word that is spoken by Brigham Young in the film was spoken by Brigham Young at the time around the Massacre" are not true.

4. This fabricated quote becomes perhaps the best-known line from the movie. It's the opening line in the movie's trailer. The clip of the actor speaking the line is available on Yahoo!Movies. It's repeatedly referred to by various news media and others as a legitimate quote of Brigham Young's words (see, e.g., here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here and here). The film's online production notes give this quote as an authentic statement from Brigham Young.

5. Critics of the LDS Church have picked up this quote and are using it as ammunition against the Church. See, e.g., here:

While the Mormon Church would like to downplay Brigham Youngâ??s role in the massacre, it could never have happened without his endorsement. Young actually considered himself to be a god to the Mormon people. Here are a couple of quotes of Brigham himself:

â??Jehovah created me to be your God on earth.â?

â??I am the voice of God. And anyone who doesnâ??t like it will be hewn down.â?

6. MRM did voice some mild skepticism about this quote's provenance. This quote is also listed as "fictitious" on WikiQuotes.

Thanks,

-Smac

You don't really mean to say that some of our detractors make things up do you? Forsooth! Ain't they got no shame? Come to think of it, it really does make sense that Brigham should whack 'em. :P

BCSpace Grand Master

BCSpace

Posted
Posted
1. The quote attributed to Brigham Young (specifically, "And anyone who doesn't like it will be hewn down") is a fabrication.

Nevertheless, it is a great quote. If BY doesn't want it, I'll be happy to take it. Could be useful on my kids.... Very much akin to Bill Cosby's "I brought you into this world, I can take you out."

:P

smac97 Grand Master

smac97

Posted
  • Author
Posted
A lot of work, and nicely done at that.

Would it be permissible for me to create a blog post (attributed of course) on your efforts?

Sure.

mfbukowski Grand Master

mfbukowski

Posted
Posted

Bravo! Encore!

smac97 Grand Master

smac97

Posted
  • Author
Posted
I recommend you send a copy of the OP to all 25 of the people who saw the film.

I don't think I need to worry about this film's influence on society. It was seen by very, very few people.

Still, it told a lie. And lies should be rebutted when they are exposed.

-Smac

cksalmon Proficient

cksalmon

Posted
Posted
[sNIP!]

Hi smac--

You're persistent, aren't you? Good work.

You really ought to attempt to have your research here published somewhere less evanescent and with a larger readership. FAIR for one, of course. But, hopefully somewhere in print, too.

While the film is inconsequential, the BY "quotation" seems to have taken on a life of its own (as you noted).

Best.

cks

JLFuller Rookie

JLFuller

Posted
Posted

smac

Pardon my cynicism. You did a good job. I guess you young guys have to discover these things yourselves. But us old folks have been down in the mud and the blood for decades with stuff like this. After a while you look at it as just another whack. No big deal. Its nothing new. I acknowledge that we should refute the bunk whenever we come across it - good days and bad. Don't stop. Throw their trash right back at them - albeit with a song on your lips and love in your heart.

Lightbearer Rising Star

Lightbearer

Posted
Posted

Excellent work Spencer! As always Anti-Mormonism is shown with their usual "lets just fake it, nobody will check" attitude. :P

BCSpace Grand Master

BCSpace

Posted
Posted
I recommend you send a copy of the OP to all 25 of the people who saw the film.
I don't think I need to worry about this film's influence on society. It was seen by very, very few people.

Still, it told a lie. And lies should be rebutted when they are exposed.

I think many thousands of people are going to see reference to the movie and the quote so the work you have done is quite important.

smac97 Grand Master

smac97

Posted
  • Author
Posted
smac

Pardon my cynicism. You did a good job. I guess you young guys have to discover these things yourselves.

I'm not sure that my interest in this matter is a result of my youth (I'm 35, not exactly a spring chicken anymore).

But us old folks have been down in the mud and the blood for decades with stuff like this.

I'm not a neophyte at apologetics, either.

I think there is some risk to becoming blas

cdowis Grand Master

cdowis

Posted
Posted
Impressive work, Spencer. Bravo.

The rule is to give your ONE line comment without giving the gigabyte citation. No one is going to take you seriously if you continue to do this.

thanks

LeSellers Veteran

LeSellers

Posted
Posted
BravoZulu.jpg
I am wondering what the message is:

It could be "B" "Z", (meaningless to me), or it could be "I am taking in, discharging, or carrying dangerous cargo, and I require a tug." This seems to be somewhat more in line with the OP.

Just wondering ...

Lehi

selek Rising Star

selek

Posted
Posted
I am wondering what the message is:

It could be "B" "Z", (meaningless to me), or it could be "I am taking in, discharging, or carrying dangerous cargo, and I require a tug." This seems to be somewhat more in line with the OP.

Just wondering ...

Lehi

"When in danger or in doubt run in circles, scream and shout.

Give them hell and fire a gun, hoist the signal up: 'Well Done.'"

Scott Lloyd Grand Master

Scott Lloyd

Posted
Posted
The rule is to give your ONE line comment without giving the gigabyte citation. No one is going to take you seriously if you continue to do this.

thanks

Sorry. Force of habit. I'm used to hitting the "Reply" button, typing my response, and hitting "Send."

I went back in and deleted the gigabyte.

This infraction is not typical of me for one-line comments. Saying that it will be cause for people not to take me seriously is a bit over the top though, don't you think?

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Go to topic listing

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...