Brigham Young: "I am the voice of God. And anyone who doesn't like it will be hewn down."

[smac97]

This infraction is not typical of me for one-line comments. Saying that it will be cause for people not to take me seriously is a bit over the top though, don't you think?

Huh? Whuzzat?

Sorry, Scott. I was too busy not taking you seriously.

-Smac

[jwhitlock]

Great work, smac. Good research, as always, and good information.

[smac97]

I think many thousands of people are going to see reference to the movie and the quote so the work you have done is quite important.

I suppose so. Thanks.

-Smac

[pennylane2003]

I suppose so. Thanks.-Smac

I understand that the quote might not be exactly accurate, but isn't it true that Joseph Smith, Bringham Young and every other Prophet of the LDS has claimed that he is the voice of God? I mean isn't that the whole point, that revelation has not ceased and men like Joseph Smith and Young and the current LDS prophet hear God's voice and then speak it to the church?

I understand that the quote might not be exactly accurate, but isn't it true that Joseph Smith, Bringham Young and every other Prophet of the LDS has claimed that he is the voice of God? I mean isn't that the whole point, that revelation has not ceased and men like Joseph Smith and Young and the current LDS prophet hear God's voice and then speak it to the church?

Or is it just the "hewn down" part that you find offensive?

[selek]

Or is it just the "hewn down" part that you find offensive?

It's the blatant dishonesty, the inventing of quotes, and disingenuous malfeasance for rhetorical effect that is offensive.

It is the wholesale invention of inflammatory quotes, coupled with the attempt to pass these lies off as Gospel truth to besmirch the names and reputations of good men and to stir up bigotry, prejudice, and to inflame ignorance that is offensive.

It is the fact that these lies were passed off as direct quotes, that these words were used to incite anger against an innocent people- and the fact that those spreading the filth knew they were lying that is offensive.

The thrust, goal, and purpose of this movie was no different than anything produced by Leni Reifenstahl.

The techniques, the intent, and the hope of this movie were precisely the same as the propoganda pieces of the late 1930's.

The only difference is that Reifenstahl was a gifted filmmaker.

[Zakuska]

It is the fact that these lies were passed off as direct quotes, that these words were used to incite anger against an innocent people- and the fact that those spreading the filth knew they were lying that is offensive.

As one review put it...

Forget Grindhouse. September Dawn is the year's first honest-to-goodness exploitation flick, utilizing its "inspired by true events" yarn about the 1857 Mountain Meadows massacre for tear-jerking, righteous indignation-stoking melodrama. Christopher Cain's portrait of the Utah region's Mormons as insane-in-the-membrane zealots, as well as its depiction of their successful plot to kill (with the help of local Native Americans) 120 immigrants passing through to California, is reportedly based on the official 27-page confession of convicted Mormon John D. Lee. Yet the clunky, heavily skewed means by which this tale is presented is nothing short of egregious, with its Mormon characters demonized with such laughable gusto, and its Christian victims cast in such a holy, noble light, that the project quickly feels less like an attempt at historical truth-telling than like shameless anti-Mormon propaganda. Mastermind and holy prophet Brigham Young (Terence Stamp) spews bloodthirsty Joseph Smith-inspired fire and brimstone, Bishop Jacob Samuelson (Jon Voight) rails on about how the visitors are abominations (one of the women wears a gun!) who are intent on driving the Mormons from their lands, and Samuelson's son Micah (Taylor Handley) drools like a wild animal as he partakes in the carnage while disguised in Native American garb. This cartoonish demonization persistently seems tied to a religious-political agenda, as well as comes off as an easy way to provide bad guys for the hokey Romeo and Juliet romance between Samuelson's older boy Jonathan (Trent Ford) and gentile Emily (Tamara Hope), a courtship that amounts to one my-religion-versus-your-religion conversation and a hilarious come-hither look from a river-bathing Emily to her sweet Mormon hunk. The narrative is given specious modern parallels by the highlighted fact that the massacre took place on September 11th, and its schematic good-versus-evil structure is fortified by Cain's camera setups (low for the wicked Mormons, eye-level for the benevolent immigrants). Also, it's virtually impossible to take seriously a film whose main contentions can be wholly gleaned from its characters' facial hairâ??of which Voight's bushy arch-villain goatee is surely the cheesiest.

http://www.slantmagazine.com/film/film_review.asp?ID=2925

[smac97]

I understand that the quote might not be exactly accurate,

"Not...exactly accurate" being a nice way of saying "outright fabrication," right?

Again, the claim here was that "every word" attributed to Brigham Young was obtained from the historical record. That's just not the case.

but isn't it true that Joseph Smith, Bringham Young and every other Prophet of the LDS has claimed that he is the voice of God?

Yes. But did Brigham Young claim that "anyone who doesn't like it will be hewn down?"

No.

Did Brigham Young counsel the Saints to "cut [the] miserable throats" of any emigrants passing through Utah?

No.

Are these fabricated attributions innocuous or harmless?

No.

I mean isn't that the whole point, that revelation has not ceased and men like Joseph Smith and Young and the current LDS prophet hear God's voice and then speak it to the church?Or is it just the "hewn down" part that you find offensive?

I have no particular qualm with the "voice of God" bit. The rest of the quote (as well as the fabricated portions of the second quote) are deeply problematic.

Particularly when they were sold to the public as authentic attributions.

And then, of course, there are the lines given to the fictitious Bishop Samuelson:

Check this out:

MEDIA ADVISORY, Aug. 27 /Christian Newswire/ -- "We have been honored, above all other men, to be the chosen instruments of death. Through their deaths, these Gentiles will attain eternal salvation... It is a duty we owe to God and to our church."

These are the powerful words of Mormon Bishop, Jacob Samuelson (Jon Voight), in a controversial new film that recently released in theaters across America.

...

September Dawn serves as an important reminder, not of the helpless victims, but as a warning against killing in the name of God or religion. Understanding the significance of this message, producers of the film have made clips available on WingClips.com to be used as sermon and teaching illustrations.

Yep, you heard right. WingClips.com is a service that provides movie clips for use in religious (read: Evangelical Protestant) sermons.

What sort of point in a sermon would be driven home by clips from September Dawn? What sort of clips from the movie are actually provided?

Take a look:

September Dawn - Blessing and Cursing - The Christian preacher and the Mormon bishop are each seen praying with their congregations, one with blessings and thankfulness, the other with cursing and hate.

(This scene alternates between shots of the immigrants praying and the Mormons praying.)

Shot of Immigrants Praying: Let us give thanks to the Lord...

Shot of Mormons (Bishop Samuelson) Praying: We thank you for the food we eat, the shelter that keeps us dry, the clothes that keep us warm...

Shot of Immigrants Praying: ...Thank you for this beautiful place for us to rest, and for the animals to feed and drink...

Shot of Mormons (Bishop Samuelson) Praying: ...We thank you for delivering the Gentiles into our hands...

Shot of Immigrants Praying: ...Bless the bishop, and his family, for allowing us to stay...

Shot of Mormons (Bishop Samuelson) Praying: ...Surely these people are cursed beyond hope of redemption...

Shot of Immigrants Praying: ...Thank you for showing the light of Christian charity to those who doubted our motives for staying in this glorious place...

Shot of Mormons (Bishop Samuelson): ...Curse the Gentile dogs who allow abominations, like that woman in pants who carries a gun. Curse all the people from Missouri who drove us from our land...

Shot of Immigrants Praying: ...In Jesus' name...

Shot of Mormons (Bishop Samuelson): ...May these children of Satan go to hell. Amen.

September Dawn - Duty to obey - The Bishop commands that his people kill all the settlers, under the pretense that it is the will of God. But his son questions whether they are being deceived:

(This scene is a sermon given by Bishop Samuelson.)

Bishop Samuelson: We...we have been honored above all other men to be the chosen instruments of death in carrying out this merciful deed. This our sacred duty. Through their deaths, these Gentiles will attain eternal salvation.

(Crowd members nod and murmer their agreement, but Bishop Samuelson's son looks upset).

We are to consider their deaths a virtuous act of grace and mercy.

(More nods, louder exclamations of agreement, and amens).

Brethren, we have a duty to perform. It is a duty we owe to God, and to our church.

(More amens.)

The orders of those in authority are that all the immigrants must die.

(Loud amens.)

Our leaders speak with inspired tongues, and their orders come from the God of Heaven. We have no right to question what they have commanded us to do. It is our duty to obey.

(Loud amens. Bishop Samuelson's son stands up and speaks.)

Bishop Samuelson's Son: And what of the laws of our land? Do we disobey the laws of our country? Whether we like it or not, we are still part of the United States.

Bishop Samuelson: How dare you question the voice of the Heavenly Father!

Bishop Samuelson's Son: I do not question the Heavenly Father. I question what the prophet and the apostles think they have heard. Is it not possible that Satan has deceived us all?

(Shouts from the crowd.)

If Jews are allowed to disagree with the various blood libels spewed against them over the years, I don't see why Latter-day Saints should ignore these present defamations against us.

-Smac

[jadams_4242]

When September Dawn came out in 2007, I was struck with a particular line in the film attributed to Brigham Young:

I am the voice of God. And anyone who doesn't like it will be hewn down."

I thought it odd that I had never heard of this quote before, particularly given that we have so many critics who are only too willing to cull soundbites from early LDS leaders in an attempt to make us look bad.

I started to do a bit of online research. The only reference I could find for this quote was one of the newsletters from Utah Lighthouse Ministries. Specifically, in the "Letters to the Editor" section, I found this letter from an anonymous author to Sandra Tanner:

Nov. 28, 2004

Sandra, I'm sorry to bother you but I'm having a difficult time finding the reference to this statement by Brigham Young and wondered if you would know off-hand, where it came from so I can look it up. Was it the JOD? If so, when and what pages? Thank you so much. I'm going crazy trying to find it.

"I am the voice of God and anyone who doesn't like it will be hewn down. God has revealed to me that I have the right and power to call down curses on anyone who tries to invade our lands. Therefore, I curse the Gentiles."

{quote} jadams_4040

Also we might remember when in copenhagen denmark president Kimball>>>>>In 1976 an area general conference was held in Copenhagen, Denmark. Following the closing session, President Spencer W. Kimball desired to visit the Vor Frue Church, where the Thorvaldsen statues of the Christus and of the Twelve Apostles stand. He had visited there some years earlier and wanted all of us to see it, to go there.

To the front of the church, behind the altar, stands the familiar statue of the Christus with His arms turned forward and somewhat outstretched, the hands showing the imprint of the nails, and the wound in His side very clearly visible. Along each side stand the statues of the Apostles, Peter at the front to the right and the other Apostles in order.

Most of our group was near the rear of the chapel with the custodian. I stood up front with President Kimball before the statue of Peter with Elder Rex D. Pinegar and Johan Helge Benthin, president of the Copenhagen stake.

In Peterâ??s hand, depicted in marble, is a set of heavy keys. President Kimball pointed to those keys and explained what they symbolized. Then, in an act I shall never forget, he turned to President Benthin and with unaccustomed firmness pointed his finger at him and said," I WANT YOU TO TELL EVERYONE OIN DENMARK THAT I HOLD THE KEYS" We hold the real keys, and we use them every day.â?

I think this is very close to what was quoted of B.Y a saying; only this has been documented.

[smac97]

Can you clean up this post a bit? I can't make sense of it.

-Smac

[smac97]

I've been having an interesting exchange with Sally Denton about this matter. Ms. Denton agrees that the source of the "hewn down" quote (as it appears in her book, not in September Dawn) may have been Lights and Shadows of Mormonism by Josiah Gibbs (rather than The Mountain Meadows Massacre by Gibbs).

Ms. Denton also said that she had no involvement in the production of September Dawn and that those involved with the film insisted they had never read her book (American Massacre). Ms. Denton has made this same claim here ("The movie, September Dawn, is not based on my book, American Massacre--at least not according to its producers who never consulted with me nor compensated me.").

Since Ms. Schutter has gone on record saying that Denton's book was the source of the "hewn down" quote, I suspect a wee bit of dishonesty going on here (on Ms. Schutter's part).

-Smac

[selek]

Can you clean up this post a bit? I can't make sense of it.

-Smac

Since JAdams hasn't, I'll take a stab at it:

When September Dawn came out in 2007, I was struck with a particular line in the film attributed to Brigham Young:

I am the voice of God. And anyone who doesn't like it will be hewn down."

I thought it odd that I had never heard of this quote before, particularly given that we have so many critics who are only too willing to cull soundbites from early LDS leaders in an attempt to make us look bad.

I started to do a bit of online research. The only reference I could find for this quote was one of the newsletters from Utah Lighthouse Ministries. Specifically, in the "Letters to the Editor" section, I found this letter from an anonymous author to Sandra Tanner:

Nov. 28, 2004

Sandra, I'm sorry to bother you but I'm having a difficult time finding the reference to this statement by Brigham Young and wondered if you would know off-hand, where it came from so I can look it up. Was it the JOD? If so, when and what pages? Thank you so much. I'm going crazy trying to find it.

"I am the voice of God and anyone who doesn't like it will be hewn down. God has revealed to me that I have the right and power to call down curses on anyone who tries to invade our lands. Therefore, I curse the Gentiles."

Also we might remember when in copenhagen denmark president Kimball>>>>>In 1976 an area general conference was held in Copenhagen, Denmark. Following the closing session, President Spencer W. Kimball desired to visit the Vor Frue Church, where the Thorvaldsen statues of the Christus and of the Twelve Apostles stand. He had visited there some years earlier and wanted all of us to see it, to go there.

To the front of the church, behind the altar, stands the familiar statue of the Christus with His arms turned forward and somewhat outstretched, the hands showing the imprint of the nails, and the wound in His side very clearly visible. Along each side stand the statues of the Apostles, Peter at the front to the right and the other Apostles in order.

Most of our group was near the rear of the chapel with the custodian. I stood up front with President Kimball before the statue of Peter with Elder Rex D. Pinegar and Johan Helge Benthin, president of the Copenhagen stake.

In Peterâ??s hand, depicted in marble, is a set of heavy keys. President Kimball pointed to those keys and explained what they symbolized. Then, in an act I shall never forget, he turned to President Benthin and with unaccustomed firmness pointed his finger at him and said," I WANT YOU TO TELL EVERYONE OIN DENMARK THAT I HOLD THE KEYS" We hold the real keys, and we use them every day.â?

I think this is very close to what was quoted of B.Y a saying; only this has been documented.

JAdams cited your post about the September Yawn deceipt, and then moved onto Brigham Young's "I am the voice of God" quote.

He offered up an anecdote about President Kimball and several General Authorities visiting the Christus statue in Denmark.

President Kimbal pointed to the keys held by the Apostle Peter and said, "I hold the keys. We hold the real keys and we use them every day."

JAdams was suggesting that President Kimball's remarks were on a par with President Young's, implying that as holders of the Priesthood keys Young, then Kimball in his turn, and Monson today are the voice of God on Earth.

[smac97]

JAdams cited your post about the September Yawn deceipt, and then moved onto Brigham Young's "I am the voice of God" quote.

I'm not seeing a similarity in the quotes.

He offered up an anecdote about President Kimball and several General Authorities visiting the Christus statue in Denmark.

President Kimbal pointed to the keys held by the Apostle Peter and said, "I hold the keys. We hold the real keys and we use them every day."

JAdams was suggesting that President Kimball's remarks were on a par with President Young's, implying that as holders of the Priesthood keys Young, then Kimball in his turn, and Monson today are the voice of God on Earth.

A prophet claiming to be the "voice of God" is not particularly troubling. It's the rest of the quote that is bothersome.

And the fact that this fabricated quote was passed of as authentic.

-Smac

[Scott Lloyd]

I'm not seeing a similarity in the quotes.

A prophet claiming to be the "voice of God" is not particularly troubling. It's the rest of the quote that is bothersome.

And the fact that this fabricated quote was passed of as authentic.

-Smac

I'm trying not to seem irritable here, but it seems to me this should be self-evident. Why would we object to the "voice of God" concept, when that is a pillar of our faith? On the other hand, why would we not object to murderous statements being falsely attributed to our revered leaders?

Common sense, people!

[selek]

I'm not seeing a similarity in the quotes.

A prophet claiming to be the "voice of God" is not particularly troubling. It's the rest of the quote that is bothersome.

And the fact that this fabricated quote was passed of as authentic.

-Smac

I quite agree with you, and I suspect JAdams does as well.

I believe (and he's certainly free to correct me) that JAdams was demonstrating modern parallels to the authentic portion of the quote, and was not attempting to justifying the attached falsehood in any way.

As Scott pointed out, the "voice of God" concept is a pillar of our faith- I believe that is what JAdams was attempting to demonstrate.

I don't read anything in his post as trying to justify or extend any kind of faux-authenticity to MS. Schutter's bilious falsehood.

[smac97]

I quite agree with you, and I suspect JAdams does as well.

I believe (and he's certainly free to correct me) that JAdams was demonstrating modern parallels to the authentic portion of the quote, and was not attempting to justifying the attached falsehood in any way.

As Scott pointed out, the "voice of God" concept is a pillar of our faith- I believe that is what JAdams was attempting to demonstrate.

I don't read anything in his post as trying to justify or extend any kind of faux-authenticity to MS. Schutter's bilious falsehood.

Okay.

It's a little galling that anti-mormons so frequently get away with this sort of thing with impunity.

-Smac

[Analytics]

Okay.

It's a little galling that anti-mormons so frequently get away with this sort of thing with impunity.

-Smac

Good detective work, Spencer. Itâ??s unfortunate that the movie wasnâ??t honest about what was said and that the writers werenâ??t honest about how rigorous they were in their research.

But letâ??s keep this in perspective. What we are talking about is the Mountain Meadows Massacre. If an anti-Mormon wants to make the Mormons look bad he doesnâ??t need to resort to lying, twisting the truth, and making things up; all he has to do is tell the truth about what happened.

[Scott Lloyd]

Good detective work, Spencer. Itâ??s unfortunate that the movie wasnâ??t honest about what was said and that the writers werenâ??t honest about how rigorous they were in their research.

But letâ??s keep this in perspective. What we are talking about is the Mountain Meadows Massacre. If an anti-Mormon wants to make the Mormons look bad he doesnâ??t need to resort to lying, twisting the truth, and making things up; all he has to do is tell the truth about what happened.

It's a bit more complicated than that, unless one believes telling "the truth" does not include providing honest perspective and historical context.

[smac97]

Good detective work, Spencer. Itâ??s unfortunate that the movie wasnâ??t honest about what was said and that the writers werenâ??t honest about how rigorous they were in their research.

It's more than mere dishonesty. It's more than fabricating a quote, attributing it to Brigham Young and telling the world that it's authentic.

It's the content.

But letâ??s keep this in perspective. What we are talking about is the Mountain Meadows Massacre. If an anti-Mormon wants to make the Mormons look bad he doesnâ??t need to resort to lying, twisting the truth, and making things up; all he has to do is tell the truth about what happened.

I agree. And yet this particular group of anti-mormons did "resort to lying, twisting the truth, and making things up."

Funny, that.

-Smac

[selek]

I agree. And yet this particular group of anti-mormons did "resort to lying, twisting the truth, and making things up."

I don't.

Mountain Meadows does not make "the Mormons" look bad.

It makes some Mormons look bad, and deservedly so.

The only way to pin what happened on the Mormon Church and Mormon society as a whole is to engage in falsehood and deliberate deception.

[Analytics]

It's a bit more complicated than that, unless one believes telling "the truth" does not include providing honest perspective and historical context.

Really? Are you really saying that if somebody provides an honest perspective and historical context to the MMM that the Mormons don't look bad?

[ttribe]

Really? Are you really saying that if somebody provides an honest perspective and historical context to the MMM that the Mormons don't look bad?

What does "THE Mormons" mean? All Mormons? The idiots who committed the act itself? Who, exactly?

[selek]

Really? Are you really saying that if somebody provides an honest perspective and historical context to the MMM that the Mormons don't look bad?

If he's not, I am.

[Analytics]

What does "THE Mormons" mean? All Mormons? The idiots who committed the act itself? Who, exactly?

The Latter-day Saints depicted in the movie.

[smac97]

Really? Are you really saying that if somebody provides an honest perspective and historical context to the MMM that the Mormons don't look bad?

That's a fair question.

And the answer is no.

I reject notions of "collective guilt." I don't blame all Jews for the death of Jesus. I don't blame all Muslims for the 9/11 terror attacks. I don't blame all Catholics for the atrocities during the Crusades. I don't blame all atheists for the deaths brought about by Joseph Stalin and Mao Tse Tung.

And I don't blame all Mormons for the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

The death of Jesus doesn't make all Jews throughout history "look bad." The 9/11 attacks didn't make all Muslims throughout history "look bad." The Crusades did not make all Catholics throughout history "look bad." The murderous regimes of Joseph Stalin and Mao Tse Tung did not make all atheiststhroughout history "look bad."

And the Mountain Meadows Massacre did not make all Mormons throughout history "look bad."

-Smac

[ttribe]

The Latter-day Saints depicted in the movie.

That's not necessarily a helpful answer given the apparent evidence that there are certain Mormons who's actions were misrepresented in the movie.