Why does life make it so hard to trust God?

[bluebell]

There's a lady that I see on instagram sometimes (not a latter-day saint as far as I can tell) who has been saying some things that really resonate with me and many experiences I've had in my life.  The last one that she posted said:

"You're not afraid God's will won't happen.  You're afraid it will. 

Because somewhere along the way, 'God's will' became the explanation for everything that broke your heart.  The thing you lost.  The prayer He didn't answer.  The life you begged Him not to let fall apart.  And afterward you were told:  God knows best, God had a reason, God's ways are higher.  So now when someone says 'Trust God with the outcome' you don't hear comfort.  You hear:  Anything can happen and if it does, you have to find a way to call it good. 

Maybe that's why surrender feels so complicated.  Because somewhere along the way you stopped experiencing God's will as something you could rest in and started experiencing it as something you had to brace for."

Amen.

I know there is a God because I've personally experienced Him.  I know He loves me because I've personally experienced His love.  But translating that into trusting Him as been an uphill battle.

Why does it seem like life is set up to make it hard to trust Him and how do we do it anyway?  

[Tony uk]

19 minutes ago, bluebell said:

 

I know there is a God because I've personally experienced Him.  I know He loves me because I've personally experienced His love.  But translating that into trusting Him as been an uphill battle.

Why does it seem like life is set up to make it hard to trust Him and how do we do it anyway

I have felt God's presence in my own life. Sometimes when I have prayed for something. At times, when I have not asked directly. Sometimes I am guided without realising, until after some time do I realise of a presence of God's love in a personal action.

In my own thoughts process, it is a parent and child process. The parent providing a home, clothing, food and all what is necessary. And the child trusting that they will be cared for in a loving environment. I feel that it is a parent/child situation between God and ourselves. 

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, Tony uk said:

I have felt God's presence in my own life. Sometimes when I have prayed for something. At times, when I have not asked directly. Sometimes I am guided without realising, until after some time do I realise of a presence of God's love in a personal action.

In my own thoughts process, it is a parent and child process. The parent providing a home, clothing, food and all what is necessary. And the child trusting that they will be cared for in a loving environment. I feel that it is a parent/child situation between God and ourselves. 

Then how do you react when God doesn’t provide a home, clothing, and food  and everything necessary? Or they weren’t and/or aren’t being cared for in a loving environment? If you put God in front of a family court to testify about how He trusted his children to mortal parents he knew were abusive or would be abusive God would have to say that he did do that. God would be judged an unfit and negligent parent.

You can appeal to a larger context where everything will eventually made right or things will be healed but that is cold comfort to those enduring pain now. And then God is going to have to send those children to spirit prison/hell to ‘fix’ their unbelief in this loving God that put them in that situation because they are horrible sinners by virtue of having been born. It is a pretty screwed up way to run things.

[Tony uk]

Maybe this would require unconditional love and trust in God.

[The Nehor]

6 minutes ago, Tony uk said:

Maybe this would require unconditional love and trust in God.

That could easily be a very codependent relationship I am reminded of this old blog post I saved:

Quote

 

She never asks, as Chloe did a few chapters back, "how this fits with a loving, merciful God."

She just takes it and blames herself.

Loretta is dealt a horrible blow by the hand of God so she rushes off to the church to apologize, to say she's sorry for what she made him do and to promise that she'll never make him lose his temper like that again.

Loretta is God's battered wife.

 

 

[Tony uk]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

That could easily be a very codependent relationship I am reminded of this old blog post I saved:

I prefer the term, Faith.

[MustardSeed]

That’s such a great wondering and can be very painful too.  
 

Do you think when something bad happens that it’s Gods will? Is everything Gods will? 
 

Maybe if everything is Gods will the trick becomes radical acceptance, a willingness to accept the ride.  Letting go of your own expectations can require some grief, no? 
 

[Pyreaux]

Reminds me of one of my pillars of faith in God. I know I believe in justice and will never not believe in it, justice will always be a worthy goal to me, but I know often justice is not found on earth. If I'm to proceed to have any hope that justice could be served, I must have faith there is some other force in the universe that will deliver that justice. Like Karma or God.

The Just-World Fallacy is looking at present suffering, authority, or legal outcomes and working backward to assume, "They must have done something to deserve this," or "The system got it right because the system exists." The just-world bias actively protects injustice by sanctifying whatever outcome currently exists. It mistakes the status quo for right. If you believe in justice too, we should keep striving for what should be, rather than blindly accepting what is.

[Kevin Christensen]

When I was tracting in England near the start of my mission in 1973, one lady, passionately observed that her late husband had been good and kind his whole life, "and he STILL died!"

So part of trusting God is learning better what to expect.  If something happens that I did not expect or desire (a not infrequent occurrence in life), I have found that my trust and faith increases when I seriously consider, "What should I expect?"

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Tooele, UT

[Teancum]

5 hours ago, bluebell said:

There's a lady that I see on instagram sometimes (not a latter-day saint as far as I can tell) who has been saying some things that really resonate with me and many experiences I've had in my life.  The last one that she posted said:

"You're not afraid God's will won't happen.  You're afraid it will. 

Because somewhere along the way, 'God's will' became the explanation for everything that broke your heart.  The thing you lost.  The prayer He didn't answer.  The life you begged Him not to let fall apart.  And afterward you were told:  God knows best, God had a reason, God's ways are higher.  So now when someone says 'Trust God with the outcome' you don't hear comfort.  You hear:  Anything can happen and if it does, you have to find a way to call it good. 

Maybe that's why surrender feels so complicated.  Because somewhere along the way you stopped experiencing God's will as something you could rest in and started experiencing it as something you had to brace for."

Amen.

I know there is a God because I've personally experienced Him.  I know He loves me because I've personally experienced His love.  But translating that into trusting Him as been an uphill battle.

Why does it seem like life is set up to make it hard to trust Him and how do we do it anyway?  

The problem of evil and suffering have caused many thoughtful persons to question their relationship, beliefs and faith that such a being exists. As well as being about to trust such a being. And the comments you shared from this person in Instagram, well I don't find pithy platitudes and comments that somehow the suffering and pain in life is somehow the God's will for us. It is like telling a parent who lost a child prematurely that "they are in a better place" or "God has a mission for your child on the other side of the veil." Such comments poorly timed can be vary hurtful even if well intended. Nobody know what is some divine being's will for us, if such a being exist.

The fac that any child is inflicted with cancer seems to beg off that such a thing is God's plan, will or its higher ways. 

And your last question you pose is one for you to ponder and conclude upon. And nobody else. This is a primary reason that led me I highly doubt a God that is taught in LDS and Christian theology exists.

[teddyaware]

5 hours ago, bluebell said:

There's a lady that I see on instagram sometimes (not a latter-day saint as far as I can tell) who has been saying some things that really resonate with me and many experiences I've had in my life.  The last one that she posted said:

"You're not afraid God's will won't happen.  You're afraid it will. 

Because somewhere along the way, 'God's will' became the explanation for everything that broke your heart.  The thing you lost.  The prayer He didn't answer.  The life you begged Him not to let fall apart.  And afterward you were told:  God knows best, God had a reason, God's ways are higher.  So now when someone says 'Trust God with the outcome' you don't hear comfort.  You hear:  Anything can happen and if it does, you have to find a way to call it good. 

Maybe that's why surrender feels so complicated.  Because somewhere along the way you stopped experiencing God's will as something you could rest in and started experiencing it as something you had to brace for."

Amen.

I know there is a God because I've personally experienced Him.  I know He loves me because I've personally experienced His love.  But translating that into trusting Him as been an uphill battle.

Why does it seem like life is set up to make it hard to trust Him and how do we do it anyway?  

The following two quotations, the first from the Prophet Joseph Smith and the second from our victorious atoning Lord, who endured infinite and eternal suffering on the way to being crowned with eternal glory and Lordship, provide two very illuminating answers to your question:

“You will have all kinds of trials to pass through. And it is quite as necessary for you to be tried as it was for Abraham and other men of God, and ... God will feel after you, and He will take hold of you and wrench your very heart strings, and if you cannot stand it you will not be fit for an inheritance in the Celestial Kingdom of God.” (Joseph Smith}

6 If thou art accused with all manner of false accusations; if thine enemies fall upon thee; if they tear thee from the society of thy father and mother and brethren and sisters; and if with a drawn sword thine enemies tear thee from the bosom of thy wife, and of thine offspring, and thine elder son, although but six years of age, shall cling to thy garments, and shall say, My father, my father, why can’t you stay with us? O, my father, what are the men going to do with you? and if then he shall be thrust from thee by the sword, and thou be dragged to prison, and thine enemies prowl around thee like wolves for the blood of the lamb;

7 And if thou shouldst be cast into the pit, or into the hands of murderers, and the sentence of death passed upon thee; if thou be cast into the deep; if the billowing surge conspire against thee; if fierce winds become thine enemy; if the heavens gather blackness, and all the elements combine to hedge up the way; and above all, if the very jaws of hell shall gape open the mouth wide after thee, know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good.

8 The Son of Man hath descended below them all. Art thou greater than he? (Doctrine and Covenants 122)

[The Nehor]

9 minutes ago, Teancum said:

The problem of evil and suffering have caused many thoughtful persons to question their relationship, beliefs and faith that such a being exists. As well as being about to trust such a being. And the comments you shared from this person in Instagram, well I don't find pithy platitudes and comments that somehow the suffering and pain in life is somehow the God's will for us. It is like telling a parent who lost a child prematurely that "they are in a better place" or "God has a mission for your child on the other side of the veil." Such comments poorly timed can be vary hurtful even if well intended. Nobody know what is some divine being's will for us, if such a being exist.

Some people take “mourn with those that mourn” to mean explain why the person shouldn’t be mourning and their mourning is wrong and bad.

[Teancum]

5 hours ago, Tony uk said:

I have felt God's presence in my own life. Sometimes when I have prayed for something. At times, when I have not asked directly. Sometimes I am guided without realising, until after some time do I realise of a presence of God's love in a personal action.

In my own thoughts process, it is a parent and child process. The parent providing a home, clothing, food and all what is necessary. And the child trusting that they will be cared for in a loving environment. I feel that it is a parent/child situation between God and ourselves. 

How do you distinguish this feeling of God's presence from any other emotional response? Is there something that makes what you felt different or special from normal emotional reactions?

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Kevin Christensen said:

So part of trusting God is learning better what to expect.  If something happens that I did not expect or desire (a not infrequent occurrence in life), I have found that my trust and faith increases when I seriously consider, "What should I expect?"

I wish the scriptures were better at teaching that instead of effusively talking about being blessed in all things both temporal and spiritual or pouring out blessings that there is not room to receive and the regular ‘if then’ statements that obedience leads to prosperity.

The prophets should probably have stuck with the “underpromise and overdeliver” bit instead of the opposite.

[Teancum]

4 hours ago, Tony uk said:

Maybe this would require unconditional love and trust in God.

Seems like a lop sided relationship.

[smac97]

5 hours ago, bluebell said:

There's a lady that I see on instagram sometimes (not a latter-day saint as far as I can tell) who has been saying some things that really resonate with me and many experiences I've had in my life.  The last one that she posted said:

"You're not afraid God's will won't happen.  You're afraid it will. 

Because somewhere along the way, 'God's will' became the explanation for everything that broke your heart.  The thing you lost.  The prayer He didn't answer.  The life you begged Him not to let fall apart.  And afterward you were told:  God knows best, God had a reason, God's ways are higher.  So now when someone says 'Trust God with the outcome' you don't hear comfort.  You hear:  Anything can happen and if it does, you have to find a way to call it good. 

Maybe that's why surrender feels so complicated.  Because somewhere along the way you stopped experiencing God's will as something you could rest in and started experiencing it as something you had to brace for."

Amen.

I know there is a God because I've personally experienced Him.  I know He loves me because I've personally experienced His love.  But translating that into trusting Him as been an uphill battle.

Why does it seem like life is set up to make it hard to trust Him and how do we do it anyway?  

A few quick thoughts:

1. Agency.  Ascribing all events to "God's will" only works in the broadest abstract sense.  His will was to have us come to earth to be tested and to learn and to grow, but His will is not that we should sin, injure others, violate covenants, and so on.  He gave us the opportunity to sin, apparently because of the "opposition in all things" concept, but He also gave us the means to overcome those sins (the Atonement, repentance).

2. Vicissitudes of Life.  The natural, unpredictable ups and downs, shifts in fortune, and alternating phases of good and bad experiences that every person encounters.  My dad, when discussing such things, would sometimes conclude with a shrug as "Well, that's all a part of living in a Telestial World."  His implication was not fatalism, but rather that we can and will find a better place of peace and rest, but that meanwhile we do our part as best we can, and repent along the way.

3. For my part, I have found help in A) retaining in my memory, and repeating, the attributes of God (He knows us, loves us, our "immortality and eternal life" are His "work and {} glory" (Moses 1:37), B) striving to be grateful, and C) striving to be humble.  Remembrance.  Gratitude.  Humility.  These help me cope with difficult times.

4. Back in 2004, Elder Dennis Simmons gave a great talk: "But if not..."  Very much worth a read.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Teancum]

17 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

You will have all kinds of trials to pass through. And it is quite as necessary for you to be tried as it was for Abraham and other men of God, and ... God will feel after you, and He will take hold of you and wrench your very heart strings, and if you cannot stand it you will not be fit for an inheritance in the Celestial Kingdom of God.” (Joseph Smith}

I used to love this quote. I came to feel differently about it. So my honest, and not taunting question to you is, why? Why would a loving God test and try us, intentionally intentionally, in such a way in order to inherit the celestial glory? Why?  It seems cruel to me. Would any of us intentionally inflict such suffering on one of our children?

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Maybe if everything is Gods will the trick becomes radical acceptance, a willingness to accept the ride.  Letting go of your own expectations can require some grief, no? 

“Seek and expect miracles.” - President Nelson

Trying to lower or get rid of expectations is really pushing against the grain of scripture, prophetic counsel, and the whole vibe of church culture and admonitions.

I mean, sure, there are the “and if not” admonitions that sometimes you won’t get it but my brain can’t work on this level. How do you fully expect the best and all kinds of miracles and then shift to a kind of resigned stoicism and then go back to optimistic expectations? Wouldn’t just a more moderate realism be more palatable than advocating for a roller coaster ride.

I sincerely envy the people I see in Church (and elsewhere) that can seem convinced the best will happen and then it very often doesn’t and then in the next situation they seem to think the best will happen again.

HOW DOES THAT BRAND OF OPTIMISM SURVIVE BEING ALMOST PERPETUALLY WRONG?

Edited 20 hours ago by The Nehor

[Teancum]

2 minutes ago, smac97 said:

A few quick thoughts:

1. Agency.  Ascribing all events to "God's will" only works in the broadest abstract sense.  His will was to have us come to earth to be tested and to learn and to grow, but His will is not that we should sin, injure others, violate covenants, and so on.  He gave us the opportunity to sin, apparently because of the "opposition in all things" concept, but He also gave us the means to overcome those sins (the Atonement, repentance).

I like the idea that not all events are attributable to a God being. But the idea that he sent us here to be tested while causing us to forget everything I find much more difficult to accept.

2 minutes ago, smac97 said:

2. Vicissitudes of Life.  The natural, unpredictable ups and downs, shifts in fortune, and alternating phases of good and bad experiences that every person encounters.  My dad, when discussing such things, would sometimes conclude with a shrug as "Well, that's all a part of living in a Telestial World."  His implication was not fatalism, but rather that we can and will find a better place of peace and rest, but that meanwhile we do our part as best we can, and repent along the way.

Yet such tings are so grossly unfair. You and I were born into abundance and thank God for our food. Others, they were born into a place where food may be hard to come by.  How is the randomness of fair is God loves all his children eqiually?  I think your daed was born into a place where he could easily be a bit flippant about it. And I do not mean that as an insult.

2 minutes ago, smac97 said:

3. For my part, I have found help in A) retaining in my memory, and repeating, the attributes of God (He knows us, loves us, our "immortality and eternal life" are His "work and {} glory" (Moses 1:37), B) striving to be grateful, and C) striving to be humble.  Remembrance.  Gratitude.  Humility.  These help me cope with difficult times.

c

Good things if you want to continue to believe in God.

[MustardSeed]

I keep returning to this.  It squeezes a fundamental question I have often- is there room to be faithful and not expect anything at all from God? In fact for me it seems to be the only way. 
I find life to be woefully unfair - both in my favor and otherwise.  None of it makes any sense and it threatens to erode my faith at times.  
after life promises do nothing to motivate me.  
if I can instead trust that God exists and loves me and hears me and loves me and is at the root of all that man chooses to do that is good, then I can enjoy the occasional if not oft glimmer of greatness and beauty I can thoroughly enjoy and recognize that he is at the root of that, if not the cause . 

[The Nehor]

15 minutes ago, Teancum said:

How do you distinguish this feeling of God's presence from any other emotional response? Is there something that makes what you felt different or special from normal emotional reactions?

I used to think there was. When my faith started to ebb after failed revelation I experimented and found that with the right mental and emotional stimulation I could replicate what I used to call revelatory experiences. So I went looking for continued reasons to press on elsewhere.

[The Nehor]

4 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I keep returning to this.  It squeezes a fundamental question I have often- is there room to be faithful and not expect anything at all from God? In fact for me it seems to be the only way. 

I’m not sure that is faith anymore if it expects nothing. That is like saying I trust someone completely knowing they are unreliable when I am in need. What is the trust based on? Maybe just being reliable in another life?

4 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I find life to be woefully unfair - both in my favor and otherwise.  None of it makes any sense and it threatens to erode my faith at times.  

Yep. And being told that I am so fortunate doesn’t help. It is like saying you should be happy. God could have made it so much worse and even did for a lot of people throughout history and up to this day. So I should trust God because he could have made it so much worse and he did for many of his children? That is supposed to be a consolation for anyone with empathy?

4 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

after life promises do nothing to motivate me.

Yeah, if God seems to make overhyped promises of prosperity and joy here and I find it underwhelming then I have a hard time getting excited about more promises that could also be overhyped.

4 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

 if I can instead trust that God exists and loves me and hears me and loves me and is at the root of all that man chooses to do that is good, then I can enjoy the occasional if not oft glimmer of greatness and beauty I can thoroughly enjoy and recognize that he is at the root of that, if not the cause . 

I just sometimes wonder if God is even needed in that equation.

[teddyaware]

26 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I used to love this quote. I came to feel differently about it. So my honest, and not taunting question to you is, why? Why would a loving God test and try us, intentionally intentionally, in such a way in order to inherit the celestial glory? Why?  It seems cruel to me. Would any of us intentionally inflict such suffering on one of our children?

For the same reason that Christ was required was to suffer far more than us all. Our suffering with Christ is the essential refiner’s fire by which our faith in God’s goodness is perfected, for if our faith remains unshakeable, in spite of every device the adversary can amass against us, we will be found worthy to inherit the infinite and eternal fullness of God’s love, intelligence, wisdom and power, and forever thereafter the powers of darkness will remain forever subject to those who have overcome the powers of darkness through their faith in Jesus Christ.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit that we are the children of God:

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. (Romans 8:16-18)

 

 

Edited 20 hours ago by teddyaware

[smac97]

21 minutes ago, Teancum said:

The problem of evil and suffering have caused many thoughtful persons to question their relationship, beliefs and faith that such a being exists. As well as being about to trust such a being. And the comments you shared from this person in Instagram, well I don't find pithy platitudes and comments that somehow the suffering and pain in life is somehow the God's will for us.

When I went into Basic Training, I knew it was going to be a challenge.  I went anyway because I expected to encounter these challenges, and that I would have the opportunity to meet and overcome them, or to endure them.  The drill sergeants went out of their way to put stressors on us: physical endurance, fatigue, sleep deprivation, high-stress environments, dangerous environments.  These were not a frustration of the purpose of Basic Training, they were part and parcel of that purpose.  Other elements were nicer.  We each took an oath to defend our country.  We put on uniforms.  We agreed, in principle, to go into harm's way if ordered to do so.  We were training because, as the not-Churchill-or-Orwell-but-somebody said, I perceived that “People sleep peaceably in their beds at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.”  The work needed to be done, and people needed to volunteer to do it.

21 minutes ago, Teancum said:

It is like telling a parent who lost a child prematurely that "they are in a better place" or "God has a mission for your child on the other side of the veil." Such comments poorly timed can be vary hurtful even if well intended. Nobody know what is some divine being's will for us, if such a being exist.

Well-intentioned stuff like this would hopefully be times well and expressed well.

21 minutes ago, Teancum said:

The fac that any child is inflicted with cancer seems to beg off that such a thing is God's plan, will or its higher ways. 

Yes, that's a real struggle.

A few years back I discovered that a classmate of mine from high school had died, and that police later realized that she had delivered and killed three babies.  I knew this girl all through junior high and high school.  We weren't chums, but we knew each other and had many classes together over the years.  It was genuinely shocking to hear she had (apparently) done these terrible things, that she had chosen to do these things more than once.

The death of a child through disease or natural disaster is, I think, generally more difficult to process than when a child dies through the known bad acts of a known person.  Thomas Hobbes said that, without government and society, we would face "continual fear and danger of violent death" and find life to be be "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short."  It think this observation would apply with similar utility to heavenly government and society.  I can choose nihilism, or I can choose the Plan of Salvation.  Both require faith, but the latter both brings much solace and joy and hope and also makes a lot of sense to me.  I just can't bring myself to, in the end, embrace the notion that there is no purpose or meaning in life, that this is all there is, that good things and bad things are all just matters of happenstance, and that there is nothing when we die.

21 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Quote

Why does it seem like life is set up to make it hard to trust Him and how do we do it anyway?  

And your last question you pose is one for you to ponder and conclude upon. And nobody else. This is a primary reason that led me I highly doubt a God that is taught in LDS and Christian theology exists.

We all are learning from each other, but ultimately we pick and choose what influences we list to accept.

I have experienced too many things that are beyond my ken to reject or remain ambivalent about the existence of God and our relationship with Him.  

Thanks,

-Smac

[MustardSeed]

23 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Seek and expect miracles.” - President Nelson

I sort of get this.  I just can’t expect “blessings” because I get really disillusioned when the blessings expectation is grossly unmet. 
but I also get being in a mindset where every day seems to have miracles in it- you do find what you seek.  

Edited 20 hours ago by MustardSeed