Article of Faith 10

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, GoCeltics said:

Won’t Latter-day Saints now living in Salt Lake City and other places in the United States “gather their riches” so they can “purchase an inheritance” in Missouri and assist in building the New Jerusalem in order to seek safety and refuge from war and other calamities leading up to the Second Coming as Doctrine and Covenants 45:65-69 teaches?

I know of a few people that have, semi recently.

Edited October 27, 2025 by Tacenda

[Benjamin McGuire]

49 minutes ago, GoCeltics said:

Won’t Latter-day Saints now living in Salt Lake City and other places in the United States “gather their riches” so they can “purchase an inheritance” in Missouri and assist in building the New Jerusalem in order to seek safety and refuge from war and other calamities leading up to the Second Coming as Doctrine and Covenants 45:65-69 teaches?

I doubt it. I don't personally think that any Latter-day Saint living today will be around for the Second Coming. On top of that, it is hard to believe that in a apocalyptic context that wealth will continue to have much value. If governments collapse, even land ownership becomes much less meaningful.

[CV75]

3 hours ago, GoCeltics said:

How did you recognize the entities of the other two tribes?

When did the inclusion of the Ten Tribes in the patriarchal blessings begin?

Generally speaking, I recognize Judah from general observation throughout my life and Joseph from the Book of Mormon prophecies. But there are many of ways of looking at who-is-what, and many traditions and stories about it. I do not know exactly when saints' lineages began to be identified as one of the Ten Tribes in their patriarchal blessings, but there have been threads on this addressing the increase in variation as a declaration of lineage became a standard requirement and converts began joining from a greater variety of nations.

[Benjamin McGuire]

Patriarchal Blessings began in 1833. In 1834, we have very few designations. By 1837 it was included in more than 80% of them, and within another few years had climbed to more than 90%. Most of the early years had relatively small sample sizes - except for 1835 which had a relatively low percentage of tribe designations. You can read some things about it here (I am not a huge fan of the article, but it is useful in this question). So including a tribe occurs more or less at the beginning of patriarchal blessings and very quickly becomes a standard part of it. 

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I know of a few people that have, semi recently.

It seemed to be something of a thing back in the 80s.  I also knew of a political group that attempted setting up a community somewhere in Utah (my memory says south Utah county) based on the United Order.  

I don’t know if I am just out of that loop now (and was never really in it, I just knew people through the ward) and such things are still happening or those particular forms of preparing for the end times has died out. (There is the getting ready to get called out version, but last I heard Julie Rowe’s attempt to buy land and set up a community failed miserably pretty quickly plus I don’t remember if they were modeling on the United Order or just some idea of Rowe’s.)

Edited October 27, 2025 by Calm

[Navidad]

With the growth of the LDS church in Africa and in Asia, shouldn't the church look to a gathering more central to its new black and brown-skinned majority, which is virtually sure to increase? Isn't the Church going to have to make some big cultural shifts in order to remain relevant to its new members? The Mennonite Church is facing the identical situation.

[InCognitus]

8 hours ago, GoCeltics said:

Not all Judah and Benjamin remained in the land through their course of history though, when Babylon down to Rome and the Ottoman Empire controlled that area. One could consider this a form of being scattered too.

And.....

8 hours ago, GoCeltics said:

What is the difference in meaning between AOF 10 saying, "We believe in the restoration of the Twelve Tribes" as opposed to "the restoration of the Ten Tribes"?

This has already been answered in this thread by several others, and it is suggested in my original response which was this (in the bolded part below):

On 10/24/2025 at 8:33 AM, InCognitus said:

The "ten tribes" are the northern ten tribes that were scattered.  They will be restored to Israel.  The two remaining tribes (Judah and Benjamin) were in the southern kingdom that were not scattered at the time the northern tribes were scattered.  They will also be restored because we believe in the "literal" gathering of Israel, and they will literally be able to return to the lands promised to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob at some time in the future.

All of the tribes were scattered and all will be gathered.

8 hours ago, GoCeltics said:

Was the land of the United States promised to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?  If yes, where?

Vast promises were given to Jacob's sons, which included lands beyond what was given to Israel when they entered into the promised land after the first gathering (i.e. when did Zebulun ever dwell on the coast and be a haven of ships, and have the wealth of the sea?  See Genesis 49:13 and Deuteronomy 33:18-19).  And later on God said to Israel that the meek and righteous would "inherit the earth".  That covers all of it.

[longview]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

With the growth of the LDS church in Africa and in Asia, shouldn't the church look to a gathering more central to its new black and brown-skinned majority, which is virtually sure to increase? Isn't the Church going to have to make some big cultural shifts in order to remain relevant to its new members? The Mennonite Church is facing the identical situation.

The top hierarchy is already very nicely structured to deal with rapid expansion in any particular areas of the world. The Twelve Apostles preside over quorums of the Seventies which can acquire more and more leaders directly from local areas. I believe the Seventies will continue to add more quorums. I queried the AI:

Quote

The LDS Church currently has

12 quorums of the Seventy, consisting of the First and Second Quorums (General Authority Seventies) and 10 quorums for the Area Seventies. Area Seventies are organized into geographical quorums for worldwide leadership and administration, as detailed by newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org. 

 

[GoCeltics]

22 hours ago, Benjamin McGuire said:

On top of that, it is hard to believe that in a apocalyptic context that wealth will continue to have much value. If governments collapse, even land ownership becomes much less meaningful.

Including @Tacenda

How is the prophecy of Doctrine and Covenants 45:65-69 fulfilled with those Latter-day Saints who will be alive to see the Second Coming of Christ if none of those events in Missouri happen?

[Benjamin McGuire]

1 hour ago, GoCeltics said:

How is the prophecy of Doctrine and Covenants 45:65-69 fulfilled with those Latter-day Saints who will be alive to see the Second Coming of Christ if none of those events in Missouri happen?

If only I could see the future ...

[GoCeltics]

23 hours ago, InCognitus said:

Vast promises were given to Jacob's sons, which included lands beyond what was given to Israel when they entered into the promised land after the first gathering (i.e. when did Zebulun ever dwell on the coast and be a haven of ships, and have the wealth of the sea?  See Genesis 49:13 and Deuteronomy 33:18-19).  And later on God said to Israel that the meek and righteous would "inherit the earth".  That covers all of it.

“Zebulun shall dwell at the haven of the sea; and he shall be for an haven of ships; and his border shall be unto Zidon.”

This blessing suggests that Zebulun’s descendants would live near the sea (Mediterranean) and be involved in maritime activities. The reference to Zidon (or Sidon) indicates that their territory would extend toward this ancient Phoenician city, known for its trade and seafaring.

The phrase “utmost bound of the everlasting hills” in Genesis 49:26 (for Joseph) is a poetic expression and isn’t specifically referring to a geographical location like the United States. It’s more about conveying the idea of vastness and enduring blessings. You see a similar structure for the blessings upon Issachar, Dan, and Benjamin. I think some interpretations and teachings within the Latter-day Saint tradition may have connected this phrase to the Americas.

[InCognitus]

50 minutes ago, GoCeltics said:

“Zebulun shall dwell at the haven of the sea; and he shall be for an haven of ships; and his border shall be unto Zidon.”

This blessing suggests that Zebulun’s descendants would live near the sea (Mediterranean) and be involved in maritime activities. The reference to Zidon (or Sidon) indicates that their territory would extend toward this ancient Phoenician city, known for its trade and seafaring.

Exactly the point.  Do you see Zebulun's land allocation extending to the Mediterranean in any of the land allocation maps?  I don't.  See the purple area below:

So when and how did Zebulun realize those promised blessings?

54 minutes ago, GoCeltics said:

The phrase “utmost bound of the everlasting hills” in Genesis 49:26 (for Joseph) is a poetic expression and isn’t specifically referring to a geographical location like the United States. It’s more about conveying the idea of vastness and enduring blessings. You see a similar structure for the blessings upon Issachar, Dan, and Benjamin. I think some interpretations and teachings within the Latter-day Saint tradition may have connected this phrase to the Americas.

It seems counter intuitive to say that the phrase "utmost bound of the everlasting hills" has no geographical meaning, don't you think?  (Poetic or not).

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, InCognitus said:

Exactly the point.  Do you see Zebulun's land allocation extending to the Mediterranean in any of the land allocation maps?  I don't.  See the purple area below:

So when and how did Zebulun realize those promised blessings?

It seems counter intuitive to say that the phrase "utmost bound of the everlasting hills" has no geographical meaning, don't you think?  (Poetic or not).

The one thing that confused me about these maps is how Simeon is supposed to be one of the Lost tribes. I mean Benjamin and Judah make sense as being part of the southern kingdom but Simeon is way south.

[InCognitus]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The one thing that confused me about these maps is how Simeon is supposed to be one of the Lost tribes. I mean Benjamin and Judah make sense as being part of the southern kingdom but Simeon is way south.

I've wondered the same thing.  Apparently (according to Wikipedia  ), they migrated north and were lost, and three verses are cited in support of that idea:

"The Book of Joshua locates its territory inside the boundaries of the Tribe of Judah (Joshua 19:9). It has been usually counted as one of the ten lost tribes, although its territory was surrounded by and gradually being absorbed by Judah from the start. For any Simeonites to be of the Northern Kingdom of Israel or to be affected by the Assyrian sack of the kingdom (future lost tribes) would imply a northward migration at some point in time, with support perhaps from 2 Chronicles (15:9 and 34:6,7)."

Those three verses read:

"And he [Asa] gathered all Judah and Benjamin, and the strangers with them out of Ephraim and Manasseh, and out of Simeon: for they fell to him out of Israel in abundance, when they saw that the Lord his God was with him." (2 Chronicles 15:9)

"And so did he [Josiah] in the cities of Manasseh, and Ephraim, and Simeon, even unto Naphtali, with their mattocks round about.  And when he had broken down the altars and the groves, and had beaten the graven images into powder, and cut down all the idols throughout all the land of Israel, he returned to Jerusalem."  (2 Chronicles 34:6–7)

The cities of Simeon seemed to be on king Josiah's purge list.

[Benjamin McGuire]

13 hours ago, InCognitus said:

Exactly the point.  Do you see Zebulun's land allocation extending to the Mediterranean in any of the land allocation maps?  I don't.  See the purple area below:

While these maps are based on descriptions found in the Old Testament, all of these descriptions are written long after the events they allegedly describe. From archaeological history, we know that none of the tribes of Israel actually occupied the territories as described in these sections of the Old Testament. The conquest was never complete. So we run into this very real historical problem when we try to use these descriptions in the way that you are using them here. The general consensus (and I agree with this) is that the first half of Joshua would have been composed in the mid-600s BCE, while the rest of Joshua came later - perhaps even in the post-exilic period. This makes the division of the land among the tribes more of a 'what should have been' rather than a 'what really was'. Genesis 49, which you quote, doesn't fit well with the much later mapping in Joshua. But the mapping in Genesis, Exodus, and Numbers doesn't exclude this ideal for Zebulon. These maps don't materialize out of thin air. We can loosely date them because of their resemblance to political maps that we have from other sources. Some of them match political divisions under Assyrian control, some under Babylonian control. And this contributes to the academic dating of the texts to periods of time that match the historical record.

[InCognitus]

4 hours ago, Benjamin McGuire said:

While these maps are based on descriptions found in the Old Testament, all of these descriptions are written long after the events they allegedly describe. From archaeological history, we know that none of the tribes of Israel actually occupied the territories as described in these sections of the Old Testament. The conquest was never complete. So we run into this very real historical problem when we try to use these descriptions in the way that you are using them here. The general consensus (and I agree with this) is that the first half of Joshua would have been composed in the mid-600s BCE, while the rest of Joshua came later - perhaps even in the post-exilic period. This makes the division of the land among the tribes more of a 'what should have been' rather than a 'what really was'. Genesis 49, which you quote, doesn't fit well with the much later mapping in Joshua. But the mapping in Genesis, Exodus, and Numbers doesn't exclude this ideal for Zebulon. These maps don't materialize out of thin air. We can loosely date them because of their resemblance to political maps that we have from other sources. Some of them match political divisions under Assyrian control, some under Babylonian control. And this contributes to the academic dating of the texts to periods of time that match the historical record.

Thank you.

I think this goes toward the idea I was trying to put across, which is that the lands where Israel will be gathered are nothing like what some people might expect.  I think many people (mostly outside the church) treat the return of Israel to their own lands as if they are confined to the areas we typically see on such maps.  But I see those lands as a symbol of the covenant and something that belongs to them, but not an area of confinement for their inheritance.  I'm interested in further thoughts on this subject.

[GoCeltics]

On 10/28/2025 at 6:04 PM, InCognitus said:

Exactly the point.  Do you see Zebulun's land allocation extending to the Mediterranean in any of the land allocation maps?  I don't.  See the purple area below:

So when and how did Zebulun realize those promised blessings?

It seems counter intuitive to say that the phrase "utmost bound of the everlasting hills" has no geographical meaning, don't you think?  (Poetic or not).

The words spoken about Zebulun appear to have some future fulfillment (after this blessing or yet future from us) otherwise the blessing would not make sense.

The kingship fell upon Judah, the context being Israel of course (Genesis 49:10). The blessing upon Jacob which prevailed over his progenitors (Genesis 49:26) did not include a priesthood or land in the United States.  "Have prevailed" is denoting what Jacob had then, not land he would not have in the future.

Everlasting hills, if you want to move it from geographical locations outside Israel to the United States, could also be other lands that have high mountains or ranges of hills.

You might also want to consider Ezekiel chapters 47 and 48.

Edited October 30, 2025 by GoCeltics

[Benjamin McGuire]

1 hour ago, GoCeltics said:

Everlasting hills, if you want to move it from geographical locations outside Israel to the United States, could also be other lands that have high mountains or ranges of hills.

The oldest map of the world that we have is a Babylonian map (dated to around the 8th century BC).  Encircling the known world are mountains. These mountains supported the heavens. They represented permanence. The phrase in Genesis 49:26 - "unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills" is akin to saying - "unto the ends of the earth" - both physically and metaphorically (as long as the earth exists). This goes back to your earlier comments - but it doesn't - at least in the context of Genesis - directly represent some specific place or range of mountains. The interpretation of making the everlasting hills the United States in LDS thought comes from Joseph Fielding Smith. I think it's a stretch.

[InCognitus]

On 10/30/2025 at 7:45 AM, GoCeltics said:

The words spoken about Zebulun appear to have some future fulfillment (after this blessing or yet future from us) otherwise the blessing would not make sense.

Yes, this indicates that the land inheritances of the tribes of Israel are not limited to what is commonly portrayed in Bible maps.  Their inheritances goes far beyond that.

On 10/30/2025 at 7:45 AM, GoCeltics said:

"Have prevailed" is denoting what Jacob had then, not land he would not have in the future.

This is a misconstruing of the text.  Jacob was in Egypt at the time.  What land did he really have? The blessings were given to him (past tense), but clearly not all of them had been realized at the time that Jacob pronounced his blessing upon Joseph.  He was given a blessing (as one Jewish commentary describes it), "that bursts all bounds, one that has no limits, that reaches even unto the four corners of the world, as it is stated, (Genesis 28:14) “[God said to Jacob] and thou shalt spread abroad to the West and to the East [and to the North and to the South]”, an unqualified promise that was made neither to Abraham nor to Isaac."

You keep trying to restrict the Israelites land blessings to a Bible land map, but their blessings go far beyond that.

On 10/30/2025 at 7:45 AM, GoCeltics said:

Everlasting hills, if you want to move it from geographical locations outside Israel to the United States, could also be other lands that have high mountains or ranges of hills.

Or it means the entire world, as was explained in the prior post.  That's what I believe it means.  It might even include Canada.

On 10/30/2025 at 7:45 AM, GoCeltics said:

You might also want to consider Ezekiel chapters 47 and 48.

I already did that in my post to you in the other thread on February 25, 2024. 

Edited November 1, 2025 by InCognitus

[GoCeltics]

21 hours ago, InCognitus said:

Yes, this indicates that the land inheritances of the tribes of Israel are not limited to what is commonly portrayed in Bible maps.  Their inheritances goes far beyond that.

"and his border shall be unto Zidon" doesn't seem far beyond.  Maybe you're thinking about Sidon in the Book of Mormon or that Zebulun will inherit all coastlines which can serve as havens for ships.

[InCognitus]

8 hours ago, GoCeltics said:

"and his border shall be unto Zidon" doesn't seem far beyond.  Maybe you're thinking about Sidon in the Book of Mormon or that Zebulun will inherit all coastlines which can serve as havens for ships.

No, I'm thinking about beyond the borders shown on typical Bible maps that are derived from the book of Joshua, like the one I posted above, along with the fact that they are said to rejoice in their "going out" and their abundance from the sea (Deuteronomy 33:18-19), which implies they go places and get good things from their seafaring ventures (which would be really really hard to do given the land allotment described in Joshua 19).

In other words, the land that we may imagine that Israel will inherit and return to may not be what you've been led to think it is.

[GoCeltics]

On 11/1/2025 at 6:50 PM, InCognitus said:

No, I'm thinking about beyond the borders shown on typical Bible maps that are derived from the book of Joshua, like the one I posted above, along with the fact that they are said to rejoice in their "going out" and their abundance from the sea (Deuteronomy 33:18-19), which implies they go places and get good things from their seafaring ventures (which would be really really hard to do given the land allotment described in Joshua 19).

In other words, the land that we may imagine that Israel will inherit and return to may not be what you've been led to think it is.

“And of Zebulun he said, Rejoice, Zebulun, in thy going out; and, Issachar, in thy tents. They shall call the people unto the mountain; there they shall offer sacrifices of righteousness: for they shall suck of the abundance of the seas, and of treasures hid in the sand.”

This celebrates how Zebulun and Issachar will enjoy material blessings from the sea and land, worship God rightly, and draw other peoples to God through their faithfulness and prosperity.

Where you put that mountain, seas, and sand is up to you.