Our First Estate...

[teddyaware]

3 hours ago, telnetd said:

"This life" is mortal life. The probationary state is also called the preparatory 
state in Alma 42:13.  

Alma 34:35 speaks of a final, endless state for those who had died in an unrepentant
state: "For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until 
death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal 
you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place 
in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the 
wicked.

Verse 32 again refers to it as "this life".

"For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the 
day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors".

Let’s cut to the heart of the matter. Here’s the problem: The reason why you’re confused on the most glorious principle of the preaching of the gospel to the dead (both to those who never had the chance to accept Christ while in the flesh, and also to those who previously rejected the gospel while in the body) is because you apparently don’t understand that the Book of Mormon, as we now have it, contains only the lesser portion of the teachings of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and that the deeper doctrinal teachings of Christ were deliberately left out of Mormon’s abridgment.

You’re appear to be approaching the Book of Mormon as if it’s a complete and definitive record that presents all the teachings of the gospel, including the deeper mysteries, but the fact is that the inverse is true. You see, the Prophet Mormon was pointedly commanded by the Lord to leave out of his abridgment the deeper teachings of the gospel of Christ — such as the great program preaching the gospel to the dead and the glorious doctrine of eternal marriage — with the promise that if the gentiles of the latter-days receive the Book of Mormon’s more basic and fundamental presentation of the gospel message with joy, gratitude and faith then he would reveal the deeper doctrines of truth to the Gentiles (us). And the Lord kept his promise when he revealed the deeper, more comprehensive teachings of the gospel when he revealed Doctrine and Covenants Sections 76, 88. 128 and 138.

1 And now it came to pass that when Jesus had told these things he expounded them unto the multitude; and he did expound all things unto them, both great and small.

2 And he saith: These scriptures, which ye had not with you, the Father commanded that I should give unto you; for it was wisdom in him that they should be given unto future generations.

3 And he did expound all things, even from the beginning until the time that he should come in his glory. —yea, even all things which should come upon the face of the earth, even until the elements should melt with fervent heat, and the earth should be wrapt together as a scroll, and the heavens and the earth should pass away;

and…

8 And these things have I written, which are a lesser part of the things which he taught the people; and I have written them to the intent that they may be brought again unto this people from the Gentiles, according to the words which Jesus hath spoken.

9 And when they shall have received this, which is expedient that they should have first, to try their faith, and if it shall so be that they shall believe these things then shall the greater things be made manifest unto them.

10 And if it so be that they will not believe these things, then shall the greater things be withheld from them, unto their condemnation.

11 Behold, I was about to write them, all which were engraven upon the plates of Nephi, but the Lord forbade it, saying: I will try the faith of my people.

12 Therefore I, Mormon, do write the things which have been commanded me of the Lord. And now I, Mormon, make an end of my sayings, and proceed to write the things which have been commanded me. (3 Nephi 26)

Your second stumbling block is it seems you refuse to believe that in God’s eyes of mercy the death of mortal body won’t occur until the gospel is no longer preached to the dead and vicarious temple work for the dead comes to an end. Until then, God views and judges the spirits of the deceased as if they’re still alive in the flesh.

6 For for this cause was the gospel also preached to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Peter 4)

Once you’re able to get doctrinally “unstuck,” you’ll be able to fully understand and rejoice exceedingly in the following words of truth:

30 But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appoint messengers clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkened, even to all the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead.

31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent have their sins and receive the gospel.

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets. (Doctrine and Covenants 138)

 

[nuclearfuels]

On 8/16/2025 at 10:13 AM, ZealouslyStriving said:

Thoughts?

I think we grow in our first estate as intelligences within the material that was created during the creative period (light,, rocks, ocean, land, plants, animals). Not sure why else we'd be taught about the order of Creation as often as we are. Not sure what other form we may have taken other than being parts of moons, planets, stars, the sun, etc. 

[Calm]

4 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

I think we grow in our first estate as intelligences within the material that was created during the creative period (light,, rocks, ocean, land, plants, animals).

Are you saying we did not have spirit bodies, but did have physical bodies to house our intelligences during our first estate? (Confused as this is a brand new idea to me, not challenging)

Edited September 4, 2025 by Calm

[Calm]

On 9/2/2025 at 2:30 PM, teddyaware said:

You’re appear to be approaching the Book of Mormon as if it’s a complete and definitive record that presents all the teachings of the gospel,

I suspect you are going to need to define “fulness” now given 

Quote

8 And gave him power from on high, by the means which were before prepared, to translate the Book of Mormon;

9 Which contains a record of a fallen people, and the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles and to the Jews also;

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/20?lang=eng&id=p8-9#p8-9

and this:

https://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/Fullness
 

Quote

FULL'NESS, noun [from full.]

1. The state of being filled, so as to leave no part vacant.

2. The state of abounding or being in great plenty; abundance.

3. Completeness; the state of a thing in which nothing is wanted; perfection.

In thy presence is fullness of joy. Psalms 16:11.

 

[The Nehor]

On 8/27/2025 at 1:10 PM, teddyaware said:

5 Who (I.e. all of humanity) shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

6 Forfor this cause (I.e. the inescapable fact the all mankind will be judged) was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Peter 4)

You have to really rip that verse out of context to make it about Jesus preaching to the dead. In context it is pretty clear that it is talking about people that were taught the gospel while alive but are not dead.

On 8/27/2025 at 1:10 PM, teddyaware said:

But if it makes you happy to think that the God of perfect love, knowledge, wisdom and mercy somehow created the most unjust and unmerciful horror show imaginable, because, in spite of the mountain of scriptural evidence that says otherwise, you want to continue to believe that the probationary state doesn’t continue after death that’s your prerogative.

I know I spend all day grinning and chuckling about living in the most unjust and unmerciful horror show imaginable.

This is why you can’t reach anyone. Everyone else is just an inhuman caricature to you that operates on pure spite and malevolence. I am not sure if this is how you think most people operate or if this is how you operate and you are projecting. I don’t know which is scarier either.

[ZealouslyStriving]

58 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

You have to really rip that verse out of context to make it about Jesus preaching to the dead. In context it is pretty clear that it is talking about people that were taught the gospel while alive but are not dead.

Sure... Because it's totally not tied at all to the thoughts found in the previous chapter 🙄

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison"

[Calm]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

You have to really rip that verse out of context to make it about Jesus preaching to the dead. In context it is pretty clear that it is talking about people that were taught the gospel while alive but are not dead.

Clarify please.  It is not just LDS who interpret it this way:

The NIV has the two verses linked 1Peter 3:19and 1Peter 4:6:  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Peter 3&version=NIV

 

[Calm]

Also while some commentators interpret the verse to mean the gospel was preached to those now dead while they were living, others do not:

Quote

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers

(6) For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead.--This version is misleading, and seems indeed to be one of those rare cases where the original has been expanded by the translators for doctrinal ends. The Greek is simply, For for this end was the gospel preached to the dead also, or, still more literally, to dead men also. No one with an un-preoccupied mind could doubt, taking this clause by itself, that the persons to whom this preaching was made were dead at the time of being preached to. If this is the case, then, pretty obviously, St. Peter is carrying us back to his teaching of 1Peter 3:19, and is explaining further the purpose of Christ's descent into hell.

https://biblehub.com/commentaries/1_peter/4-6.htm

Also Pulpit Commentary:

Quote

On the other hand, some of St. Peter's readers may, perhaps, have thought that those who had passed away before the gospel times could not be justly judged in the same way as those who then were living. The two classes, the living and the dead, were separated by a great difference: the living had heard the gospel, the dead had not; the living had opportunities and privileges which had not been granted to the dead. But, St. Peter says, the gospel was preached also to the dead; they too heard the glad tidings of salvation (καὶ νεκροῖς εὐηγγελίσθη). Some have thought that the word "dead" is used metaphorically for the dead in trespasses and sins. But it seems scarcely possible to give the word a literal sense in ver. 5 and a metaphorical sense in ver. 6. Some understand the apostle as meaning that the gospel had been preached to those who then were dead, before their death; but it seems unnatural to assign different times to the verb and the substantive. The aorist εὐηγγελίσθη directs our thoughts to some definite occasion. The absence of the article (καὶ νεκροῖς) should also be noticed; the words assert that the gospel was preached to dead persons - to some that were (lead. These considerations lead us to connect the passage with 1 Peter 3:19, 20. There St. Peter tells us that Christ himself went and preached in the spirit "to the spirits in prison;" then the gospel was preached, the good news of salvation was announced, to some that were dead. The article is absent both here and in ver. 5 (ζῶντας καὶ νεκρούς).

 

Edited September 4, 2025 by Calm

[teddyaware]

4 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Sure... Because it's totally not tied at all to the thoughts found in the previous chapter 🙄

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison"

It’s truly astonishing to me how there appear to be some who desperately need to believe the doctrine of Christ is unjust, unmerciful and grossly unfair. But then it all makes sense when I read the following words of wisdom from the prophet Alma.

11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell (Alma 12)

[telnetd]

On 9/2/2025 at 4:30 PM, teddyaware said:

6 For for this cause was the gospel also preached to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Peter 4)

@InCognitus also mentioned that part about being judged according to men in the flesh.

Doctrine and Covenants 138:34 says "And all other principles of the gospel that were 
necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged 
according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit".

Do they just have to know all the principles of the gospel or do they also have to keep
and perform all the principles of the Gospel to qualify themselves to be judged according
to men and live according to God in the spirit?  Who but those who return to live with
God in the highest part of the Celestial Kingdom are viewed as living according to God
in the spirit?

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Sure... Because it's totally not tied at all to the thoughts found in the previous chapter 🙄

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison"

Your sarcastic comment is unironically correct.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, teddyaware said:

It’s truly astonishing to me how there appear to be some who desperately need to believe the doctrine of Christ is unjust, unmerciful and grossly unfair. But then it all makes sense when I read the following words of wisdom from the prophet Alma.

11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell (Alma 12)

You’re projecting again.

[Calm]

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Your sarcastic comment is unironically correct.

Why do you believe it’s not tied to the idea in the previous chapter?

[InCognitus]

11 hours ago, telnetd said:

@InCognitus also mentioned that part about being judged according to men in the flesh.

Doctrine and Covenants 138:34 says "And all other principles of the gospel that were 
necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged 
according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit".

Do they just have to know all the principles of the gospel or do they also have to keep
and perform all the principles of the Gospel to qualify themselves to be judged according
to men and live according to God in the spirit?  Who but those who return to live with
God in the highest part of the Celestial Kingdom are viewed as living according to God
in the spirit?

I'm going to quote what I said again to provide the answer to this question:

On 8/31/2025 at 2:14 PM, InCognitus said:

The final judgement is based on how a person lived and responded to whatever truths had been made available to them while in their mortal life ("judged according to men in the flesh") combined with how they responded to further truths taught to them in the time between death and the final judgment and resurrection ("live according to God in the spirit" - 1 Peter 4:6). 

That's why it is urgent for those who have been taught the gospel in mortality to repent of their sins and prepare to meet God since they will be "judged according to men in the flesh", and those who have not heard the gospel in this life will be taught it in the time between death and the final judgement and resurrection, so that they may have a chance to "live according to God in the spirit".

In the bolded portion above I explained that the final judgement is based on how a person responded to the truths made available to them while in the mortal life (in the flesh).  In other words it is based on how the person lived their mortal life according to the truths that they "knew" about.  Knowledge of the truth is key to judging how a person lives their life in response to those truths.

Doctrine and Covenants 138:34 (in context) says basically the same thing. The spirits of the dead were taught the truths that they didn't know about while in the flesh, and they will still be judged based on their deeds while in the flesh according to the truths that they knew about during their mortal life.  A person in the spirit world (after death) really can't "keep" or "perform" getting baptized or receiving the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands (for example), but they can accept those ordinances performed on their behalf (vicarious baptism for the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands).  Those who believe the teachings and accept those ordinances will be living according to God in the spirit.

[teddyaware]

2 hours ago, InCognitus said:

I'm going to quote what I said again to provide the answer to this question:

In the bolded portion above I explained that the final judgement is based on how a person responded to the truths made available to them while in the mortal life (in the flesh).  In other words it is based on how the person lived their mortal life according to the truths that they "knew" about.  Knowledge of the truth is key to judging how a person lives their life in response to those truths.

Doctrine and Covenants 138:34 (in context) says basically the same thing. The spirits of the dead were taught the truths that they didn't know about while in the flesh, and they will still be judged based on their deeds while in the flesh according to the truths that they knew about during their mortal life.  A person in the spirit world (after death) really can't "keep" or "perform" getting baptized or receiving the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands (for example), but they can accept those ordinances performed on their behalf (vicarious baptism for the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands).  Those who believe the teachings and accept those ordinances will be living according to God in the spirit.

Prior to Doctrine and Covenants 138 being added to the Standard Works in 1978, I was quite familiar with the contents of Joseph F Smith’s vision because the things taught therein intrigued and fascinated me. I clearly remember thinking to myself that if Joseph F Smith’s vision were ever to be added to the scriptures that it would be a real doctrinal game changer, due to the fact that its disclosures of God’s mercy and grace definitely go beyond what was is found in Doctrine and Covenants 76. Consider the following:

18 While this vast multitude waited and conversed, rejoicing in the hour of their deliverance from the chains of death, the Son of God appeared, declaring liberty to the CAPTIVES who had been faithful; (how interesting to refer to the spiritual existence in paradise as a form of captivity from which souls longed to be liberated?)

30 But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead. (note here how the gospel is preached “to all the spirits of men.” Prior to 1978 I remember wondering to myself why, according to Joseph F Smith, the unalloyed gospel is preached to the spirits of all the dead when, at least up to that point, I thought the eventual inheritors of the telestial kingdom ended up in the spirit prison (hell) because they refuse to receive and accept of the gospel message, yet here they are being taught the gospel of Jesus Christ that they rejected?)

31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel. (now it appears the only way to escape confinement in the spirit prison and to eventually inherit a kingdom of glory is to receive the gospel?)

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression having rejected the prophets. (now I’m thinking thatvthe only way to be able to harmonize the Book of Mormon’s “day of this life” with Joseph F Smith’s vision is to expand the timeframe of the “day of this life” to include the time spent in the spirit world after death and prior to the resurrection?)

33 These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands, (really?! those who rejected the gospel message in the flesh, who are  cast down to hell after death as a consequence of their willful rebellion, are taught the actual gospel of Jesus Christ, not some booby prize version of the gospel, including its saving ordinances?!)

34 And all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (so now it’s starting to look to me that the Book of Mormon is actually correct — there really is no other way to inherit one of the Father’s heavenly mansions of glory other than to accept Jesus Christ and his gospel! Jesus Christ really is the only name under heaven whereby men can be saved, and none are exempt)

35 And so it was made known among the dead, both small and great, the unrighteous as well as the faithful, that redemption had been wrought through the sacrifice of the Son of God upon the cross. (Yup, looks to me like the only way anyone can be saved in any of the kingdoms of heavenly glory is to accept Jesus Christ and his gospel!)

 

36 Thus was it made known that our Redeemer spent his time during his sojourn in the world of spirits, instructing and preparing the faithful spirits of the prophets who had testified of him in the flesh;

37 That they might carry the message of redemption unto all the dead, unto whom he could not go personally, because of their rebellion and transgression, that they through the ministration of his servants might also hear his words. (Now I’m getting it! Those members who think the gospel and its redeeming ordinances are only for the inheritors of the celestial kingdom are in error! And now I see that the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants really do harmonize beautifully!)

 

57 I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead.

58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God, (there’s the necessity for the saving gospel ordinances again!)

59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works for they are heirs of salvation. (And to cap it all off, this verse makes it clear that the sufferings of the wicked in the spirit prison do not enable them to atone for their own sins, which is why the inheritors of the telestial kingdom must ultimately be “washed clean,” a most definite reference to the saving ordinance of baptism for the remission of sins!)

Yet as clear as all of this is to me, most reject out of hand what I believe to be perfectly obvious because they’ve become so accustomed to seeing things the way they’ve always understood them that they find it impossible to receive what I believe to be glorious further light and knowledge. Go figure…

Edited September 5, 2025 by teddyaware

[nuclearfuels]

On 9/3/2025 at 8:40 PM, Calm said:

On 9/3/2025 at 4:05 PM, nuclearfuels said:

I think we grow in our first estate as intelligences within the material that was created during the creative period (light,, rocks, ocean, land, plants, animals).

Are you saying we did not have spirit bodies, but did have physical bodies to house our intelligences during our first estate? (Confused as this is a brand new idea to me, not challenging)

I think we progressed from intelligences with spirit bodies that were contained in each creative period's creation (light, rocks, ocean, plants, animals). 

[Calm]

7 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

I think we progressed from intelligences with spirit bodies that were contained in each creative period's creation (light, rocks, ocean, plants, animals). 

I am finding it difficult to visualize what you mean by “contained” since we currently teach our spirit bodies match our physical bodies.  Are you suggesting overtime our spirit bodies evolved and therefore needed new physical bodies to contain them, moving up in complexity from light to animals, finally human physical forms?

Edited September 5, 2025 by Calm

[telnetd]

On 9/4/2025 at 11:28 PM, InCognitus said:

The final judgement is based on how a person lived and responded to whatever truths had been made available to them while in their mortal life ("judged according to men in the flesh") combined with how they responded to further truths taught to them in the time between death and the final judgment and resurrection ("live according to God in the spirit" - 1 Peter 4:6). 

That's why it is urgent for those who have been taught the gospel in mortality to repent of their sins and prepare to meet God since they will be "judged according to men in the flesh", and those who have not heard the gospel in this life will be taught it in the time between death and the final judgement and resurrection, so that they may have a chance to "live according to God in the spirit".

In the bolded portion above I explained that the final judgement is based on how a person responded to the truths made available to them while in the mortal life (in the flesh).  In other words it is based on how the person lived their mortal life according to the truths that they "knew" about.  Knowledge of the truth is key to judging how a person lives their life in response to those truths.

Doctrine and Covenants 138:34 (in context) says basically the same thing. The spirits of the dead were taught the truths that they didn't know about while in the flesh, and they will still be judged based on their deeds while in the flesh according to the truths that they knew about during their mortal life.  A person in the spirit world (after death) really can't "keep" or "perform" getting baptized or receiving the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands (for example), but they can accept those ordinances performed on their behalf (vicarious baptism for the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands).  Those who believe the teachings and accept those ordinances will be living according to God in the spirit.

If atheists or people from other religions heard the key truths of the gospel (the 
atonement of Christ, baptism, and repentance) and rejected these and then died, what 
other truths would they then hear in the spirit world and obey to live according to 
God in the spirit?

You're missing the fact that all who don't obey all the ordinances are not living in 
accordance to God because they do not inherit all that God had in store for them.

"And all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order 
to qualify them selves that they might be a judged according to men in the flesh, but 
live according to God in the spirit" (v. 34).

Verse 35 continues:  "And so it was made known among the dead, both small and great, 
the unrighteous as well as the faithful, that redemption had been wrought through the 
sacrifice of the Son of God upon the cross".

These unrighteous ones (the unjust) are the ones who perished in the days of Noah,
whom Christ is said to have visited in earlier verses (7-10).

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might 
bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By 
which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were 
disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the 
ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water ” (1 Peter 
3:18–20 )  For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, 
that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in 
the spirit" (1 Peter 4:6 )

The term "judged according to men in the flesh" seems to apply to both those living
in mortality and those in the spirit world.

[telnetd]

On 9/5/2025 at 2:04 AM, teddyaware said:

Prior to Doctrine and Covenants 138 being added to the Standard Works in 1978, I was quite familiar with the contents of Joseph F Smith’s vision because the things taught therein intrigued and fascinated me. I clearly remember thinking to myself that if Joseph F Smith’s vision were ever to be added to the scriptures that it would be a real doctrinal game changer, due to the fact that its disclosures of God’s mercy and grace definitely go beyond what was is found in Doctrine and Covenants 76. Consider the following:

18 While this vast multitude waited and conversed, rejoicing in the hour of their deliverance from the chains of death, the Son of God appeared, declaring liberty to the CAPTIVES who had been faithful; (how interesting to refer to the spiritual existence in paradise as a form of captivity from which souls longed to be liberated?)

It's also interesting that only these are in the chains of hell.

"And the saints rejoiced in their redemption, and bowed the knee and acknowledged 
the Son of God as their Redeemer and Deliverer from death and the chains of hell".

On 9/5/2025 at 2:04 AM, teddyaware said:

 

37 That they might carry the message of redemption unto all the dead, unto whom he could not go personally, because of their rebellion and transgression, that they through the ministration of his servants might also hear his words. (Now I’m getting it! Those members who think the gospel and its redeeming ordinances are only for the inheritors of the celestial kingdom are in error! And now I see that the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants really do harmonize beautifully!)

 

The rebellious and transgressors are the disobedient ones of 1 Peter 3:18-19.

“By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were 
disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the
ark was preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water". (138:8-9).

[ZealouslyStriving]

Interesting how one camp condemns us with the false accusation that we think all non-Mormons are going to hell, but the other camp thinks our God is too accommodating. 🤨

[teddyaware]

2 hours ago, telnetd said:

It's also interesting that only these are in the chains of hell.

"And the saints rejoiced in their redemption, and bowed the knee and acknowledged 
the Son of God as their Redeemer and Deliverer from death and the chains of hell".

The rebellious and transgressors are the disobedient ones of 1 Peter 3:18-19.

“By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were 
disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the
ark was preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water". (138:8-9).

The righteous in paradise are not subjected to the “chains of hell.” Rather, they are subjected to the “chains of death” because the spirit world is an extension ofthe fallen state, the full deliverance from which can only can only be effectuated by means of a glorious resurrection from the dead. The expressions “chains of death” (physical death) and “chains of hell” are not synonymous. Yet it is verily true that even the righteous in paradise view the separation of their spirits from their bodies to be a form of bondage that can only come to an end through the resurrection of the body. Truly, even the righteous dead in paradise yearn to be delivered from all the effects of the fall, including the bondage of physical death.

50 For the dead (the dead in paradise) had looked upon the long absence of their spirit from their bodies as a bondage.

51 These the Lord taught, and gave them power to come forth, after his resurrection from the dead, to enter into his Father’s kingdom, there to be crowned with immortality and eternal life, (Doctrine and Covenants 138)

Also, one of the great illuminating blessings found Doctrine and Covenants 138 is the revelation that the wicked and rebellious antediluvians of Noah’s day, referred to by the Apostle Peter, are used as representative prime examples of all the rebellious, unrighteous and unsaved spirits in the spirit prison, who will, sooner or later, be retaught the gospel by the Lord’s authorized representatives that they might be delivered from the chains of hell, if they so choose. Please note that the following passages refer to the rebellious dead in general, not just to the wicked of Noah’s day.

10 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Peter 4:6.)

and…

30 But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even toallthe spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead.even to all the  spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead. (Doctrine and Covenants 138)

 

 

[InCognitus]

3 hours ago, telnetd said:

If atheists or people from other religions heard the key truths of the gospel (the 
atonement of Christ, baptism, and repentance) and rejected these and then died, what 
other truths would they then hear in the spirit world and obey to live according to 
God in the spirit?

You're missing the fact that all who don't obey all the ordinances are not living in 
accordance to God because they do not inherit all that God had in store for them.

What you say above is not a “fact”.  People who hear the true gospel of Jesus Christ in this life and understand it and knowingly reject it are not given the same opportunities as others in the next life. 

And as I said before, their being judged according to men in the flesh has to do with their living their mortal life in accordance with the truths that they given and understand while in mortality, even if those truths are few in number.  People in that situation “obey all the ordinances” by accepting those ordinances as performed for them vicariously.  

As it says in Doctrine and Covenants 137:7–10:

“Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;  Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom; For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts. And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven.”  

3 hours ago, telnetd said:

These unrighteous ones (the unjust) are the ones who perished in the days of Noah,
whom Christ is said to have visited in earlier verses (7-10).

And just in case anyone had any doubts that you (telenetd), and theplains are not the same person, your repeated preoccupation with this issue should definitely prove it.  Read what has already been said on this topic in the other thread.

[CV75]

I don't think the gospel is preached to and vicarious ordinances performed for people who cannot possibly choose to benefit from this post-mortal ministry. Despite this opportunity, they may still choose to live in lesser light and be quickened by the attendant lesser glory, but the potential and invitation are there for them to become exalted.

[teddyaware]

3 hours ago, InCognitus said:

What you say above is not a “fact”.  People who hear the true gospel of Jesus Christ in this life and understand it and knowingly reject it are not given the same opportunities as others in the next life. 

And as I said before, their being judged according to men in the flesh has to do with their living their mortal life in accordance with the truths that they given and understand while in mortality, even if those truths are few in number.  People in that situation “obey all the ordinances” by accepting those ordinances as performed for them vicariously.  

As it says in Doctrine and Covenants 137:7–10:

“Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;  Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom; For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts. And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven.”  

And just in case anyone had any doubts that you (telenetd), and theplains are not the same person, your repeated preoccupation with this issue should definitely prove it.  Read what has already been said on this topic in the other thread.

Two honest questions for which I personally don’t have a definitive answers:

Let’s suppose Alma the Younger died of shock when the rebuking angel first appeared to him. If this intelligent young man, who had been diligently taught the gospel of Jesus Christ by his inspired father, experienced the exact kind of private hell ordeal after death that he endured while lingering near death, would the fulness of salvation in the celestial kingdom have been denied him? If the answer is yes, what do you think it is about death that causes all hope for complete repentance and obtaining the fullness of salvation to be lost?

Edited September 8, 2025 by teddyaware

[InCognitus]

10 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

Two honest questions for which I personally don’t have a definitive answers:

Let’s suppose Alma the Younger died of shock when the rebuking angel first appeared to him. If this intelligent young man, who had been diligently taught the gospel of Jesus Christ by his inspired father, experienced the exact kind of private hell ordeal after death that he endured while lingering near death, would the fulness of salvation in the celestial kingdom have been denied him? If the answer is yes, what do you think it is about death that causes all hope for complete repentance and obtaining the fullness of salvation to be lost?

First, given your hypothetical example, I think the angel would be rebuked and he would be the one in jeopardy for accidently killing Alma the younger, because I know the Lord knew Alma was deceived and that he could be used for a greater purpose (much like the apostle Paul when he was going around witnessing the killing of faithful Christians before his conversion). Furthermore, I suspect another angel would show up and raise Alma from the dead.  (How's that for getting around your hypothetical example?  ).

I don't believe all hope for complete repentance would be lost, and I think Alma would recognize the error of his ways in the spirit world if that story played out the way you described it.  But I can't say how the Lord would judge him or where his place would be in the degrees of glory.  I hope they have a hypothetical question and answer seminar in the afterlife so we can ask that question.