MustardSeed

Ah. Indeed. They both were respectful and yet firm in their replies to you. Youve earned that respect in your consistent presentation.

They are lucky to have you .

Prudential caution being labeled as “prejudice” is, it seems to me, intended to upset. (Ineffective, but noted, because it’s such a strange false equivalence for a reasonable person to stoop to) “You’re prejudiced” is a character attack. This sentiment was asserted several times, not directly to me but passive aggressively (thereby conveniently deniable.) Insult is intended in that.

1. I value the assertiveness and even the fighting words because to be so utterly dismissed around such a real daily topic felt so demeaning and to be defended is so unusual and felt like a cold drink of water on a hot day. ( I get that some who have spoken up and other who haven’t also felt demeaned by the inner dialogue some women have that “I need to be careful in the presence of any unvetted, and unfortunately at times vetted man because terrible things happen, and those terrible things include rape thus any man TO ME could be potential rapist for all I know) 2. I respect the apology. ALL conflicts (and I see this thread as a conflict) are dynamically driven. Meaning, everyone plays a problematic part. Very little accountability , including from me, on this thread., Manols accountability just makes him even more likeable and safe to me. Note that accountability, though it can feel scary, is less costly than we anticipate. Smac when you have occasionally noted your reactivity and overly dramatic responses I have noted that as well. I have noticed your new book being helpful, though it was juxtaposed by other challenges and seemed to cancel out your efforts on this thread IMO. I don’t feel more connected to you after this thread, and I admit I’m sure you don’t feel connected to me either. I’m afraid my at least monthly experience of boundary crossing from gross or inappropriate men will not allow me to backpedal my big protection plan for life, and I’m not going to lie here and pretend I dont move through the world in a way that requires me to be extremely cautious with every male stranger in the world. And to be mildly cautious with all the rest, particularly in certain circumstances. No exception. Except, like I said, with my brothers and my sons. Im sad it’s that way, for all of us. The world is still somehow a beautiful place- but trust that my experience in the world is vastly different than that of just about any man.

This is so fascinating to me honestly. I take you absolutely as One Who would support the idea that whatever the prophets says, your prayers are going to result in the same message so just listen, follow, and do and it will all work out. You strike me as One Who might even say, “ when the prophet speaks, You now know what to think, so adjust accordingly, no debates needed.” And yet here you are saying that you have never come across this Messaging in the church. That tells me that you seem to have adopted this message organically. That’s remarkable. Unless I misunderstand who you are?

(Perhaps this is already been mentioned, but I’m growing weary of the topic so I’m being lazy.) AI helps, but these statements are very old. But personally, having heard the sentiment over and over throughout the years by local leaders and teachers and comments in Sunday school often enough that I’m part of this conversation today, I would imagine that these original statements have been sticky enough that it’s become part of culture for our church. Maybe not in Smacs ward but ok: Ai: “The most famous is not actually “when the prophet speaks, the thinking is done,” but: “When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done.” “When they give direction, it should mark the end of controversy.” — Ward Teachers’ Message, Improvement Era, June 1945, published under the supervision of the Presiding Bishopric. This was an official teaching message for ward teachers, not merely a private opinion piece. It generated controversy at the time. A Unitarian minister, J. Raymond Cope, wrote to Church President George Albert Smith expressing concern. Smith replied that the Church does not expect blind obedience and that members should use their reason and judgment. A later statement is even closer to your wording: “When the prophet speaks, the debate is over.” This phrase was quoted approvingly by N. Eldon Tanner in an August 1979 First Presidency message. He was referencing a statement made by Elaine Cannon at a Church fireside.”

I stand all amazed honestly. Smac if I ever need a lawyer I’m calling you. I had to read this about five times. I think maybe you didn’t intend this.

Likewise! But I was really asking you about the bigger picture in reference to the original statement here on the thread “when the prophet speaks the discussion is over” - someone had said they had received this message from the pulpit often, but they were being told here that this was not actually a thing. I’m trying really hard to make sure that the person who made this statement doesn’t feel gaslit, because I feel like that happens too often on this site so when it does happen, I like to clarify. But I feel like the moment has passed anyway. I don’t even remember who said what anymore 😅

Cool, I’m exactly the same way. I just wondered if you had received messaging from leadership that we should or should not challenge statements made by general authorities or what have you. My experience is that Elder C’s words are a breath of fresh air.

This is a wonderful quote. I love it. Is this your experience, overall, in our church?

I once heard it said that biologically, when we come across a stranger, our brain is assessing two things. Is this person dangerous, and also is it a potential sexual partner. We’re talking on a very basic cellular level here, of course. Personal history, headline news, other people’s experiences are all going to shape that meter for each of us.

I think for the purposes of this conversation, I know what California is saying. I don’t need every little word to be perfect to understand his message. I understand what he’s communicating. my relationship with California, and with you and with everybody else here is more important to me than rejecting a message based on a word. I know that words are very important to you. But to me, standing on ceremony with this inhibits actual conversations. And yes, I do believe that the church wants us to think and ponder and ask questions. But I do not think they want any sort of debate. I think they want us to pray and receive the same answers that they have already provided. That is my opinion.

Yes. 100%

How can we best help you? Your thought didn’t come across here in a complete sentence. Maybe you can give us a little more information so we can support.

Wow. Thank you. I feel seen .

I understand. I promise I will never say “ Danzo I think you have a potential to be a sexual predator” I would be completely out of bounds. I can commit to never saying that to you. Nor will I ever say that to anybody nor have I. It’s really unfortunate that you have to be so careful. What I hear you saying is that you resent having to be so careful due to women’s outrageous anxiety. what I want you to say is that you resent having to be so careful due to the fact that so many women on the daily have to deal with inappropriate behavior from men, and that there is no way for us to know when we are completely safe and so we have to be extra cautious. And it’s not fair to you. Because honestly, it’s not. It’s not fair to you. It’s not fair to so many good men. I hate that for you. Assuming you are a good man. I’m sure you have many women that reflect your goodness. And I’m sure that it is painful to have to consider all who do not know you and do not trust you because of not knowing you, and their real live experience.

I’ve heard several iterations from pulpit etc of “ when the prophet speaks the debate is over.” Less so since Covid (I have theories) but California Id hate for you to feel gaslit on this. It’s certainly been propagated.

I’m not a bishop (shocking, I know) but can’t imagine why anyone holding the child would be a problem for anyone- that said, I think your Bishop went rogue. Imo.

Nvmd

I just dont love it when men suppose how women think, or how we should think. What I do love is when men say, “Im upset that men have done enough harm in the world that you 1.perceive lack of safety 2. Experience actual threat. Your concerns make sense. “ Just yesterday i was pumping gas. A dude walked up to me, got 2 feet from me, and asked what perfume i wear and told me i probably look great driving my sporty black car. He would not go away. I did not invite this nor did I feel comfortable. I did not assume anybody was going to rape me at the gas station. But if anyone here cant understand how gross that feels, how it adds to the pile of info, how that was in public in daylight, and how thats JUST YESTERDAY i dont know what else there is to say. I guess there isnt anything anyway.

Still are, from my experience

I loved it. I was hesitant because I’m really deeply affected by watching young boys die in war movies but 99% of the movie was filmed in an office building . I agree the acting was outstanding.

Honestly because I’m done being polite. Until you with others start requiring your team to change as loudly as you try to disqualify (me) with argument, nothing will change. Men don’t often listen to women as much as they will listen to other men and Smac we need you to defend us, not fight every line we write as though it is a sport. For you it looks to be a game. For us it’s daily concern.

Apparently participating does not equal listening. Instead, being of a victim mentality and finding apparent joy in argument seems to be the order of the day. im not worried that you are, or will turn into, a rapist. But since you are male, and I am female, I will always have a watchful eye on precarious situations with you and every other male. Sorry if that upsets you. But not really because I didn’t cause that need for awareness. thanks to those who try to get it. Also, Anxiety disorder is a mental health diagnosis with a code and everything. Awareness is not mental disorder. It’s life.

Anxiety disorders? Ok. ✅