MustardSeed

Ok.

I wasn’t there, I don’t know exactly what was said and so take this feedback with a grain of salt. There are multiple ways that you could’ve created space adjacent to your teaching partners ideology that would have been acceptable to most. Your anger is rooted in your parents rejection of you, and that’s totally valid. But it’s also blinding you to some opportunities you apparently have had to make a difference legitimately for young men and probably other areas, (audience here on this site for example- )your bitterness comes across in a way that doesn’t invite self reflection from anyone but rather creates defensiveness and guarding. I would’ve asked for you to be released myself. And I have no issues with young men not serving missions. But I do take issue with is people personal agendas particularly those rooted in unresolved wounding bleeding out in any way when in a position of leadership.

I’m glad they changed it. it annoys me when people claim I’m not Christian, that I don’t believe in real Jesus Christ. At the same time, I trust that people who get worked up about my claim to Christianity are coming from a place that I don’t yet understand. I’ve had plenty of friends have left the church who have stated that Mormons don’t get it. I’ve been a Mormon all of my life so it’s all I know. I trust that there’s a perspective outside of me that feels as right as mine does to me. Regarding Missionaries, absolutely back in the day, 30 years ago, it was very shameful to not serve and even worse to come home early. Change in Utah occurs slowly, but outside the bubble we don’t bat an eye any more when kids have not served a mission. The 80s and 90s were rough with shame.

My attacker told the judge his intention was to rape me, murder me and leave me in the river. I’m wondering if there’s a misunderstanding here - personally, I don’t have concerns that every man has latent within him a quiet rapist who could potentially surface. Rather what I’m saying is that without any reassurance of safety, I have to protect myself from every man via being on alert because I could get seriously hurt. I have less power than most men and I can’t discern my level of safety without more information, and That Takes Time. Even then, sometimes, that’s not enough. “Every man is a potential rapist” can be interpreted both ways. I certainly don’t mean the first. (maybe the first has some elements of truth in that we are all capable of evil but in my mind that’s beyond the scope of this conversation and can definitely see how upsetting that could be to hear, more so than the second .)

Also I’d like to mention, that I’ve noticed through the years participating on this site that often when the conversation turns to women’s issues, a lot of men have disappeared in the conversation. I’ve noticed, though on this many men showing up advocating for women’s experience and wanting things to be better for us. I want you to know that I notice and that it is very meaningful to me. Thank you. It matters.

I am very grateful tonight. My husband and I have not had an easy road but the last few years have been worth all the work in our marriage. We got to chatting tonight over dinner and I shared with him that I had been involved in this conversation online. I told him, which I’ve told him before, that I moved through the world a quiet, high alert state of mind. He stopped me immediately and said “ oh- I am so sorry that you have to do that.” And this is exactly why I feel safe with him. ❤️

I edited a few things in my previous post fyi.

Fair enough, and I do think that typically in a regular conversation, this is a language that I would use. But to be honest, when I’m walking down the street and nobody else is around, and a man I don’t know is walking up behind me, the first thing I think is “ protect yourself from rape”. Also, when I am walking out to my car in a dark parking lot, and there are not many people around, I’m looking out for men. Any men. Also, under certain circumstances, I’m hyper aware of just about any man I know when I am alone with them. Not my biological brothers, not my husband, not my sons. But literally, everybody else. I’m not screaming in my head, “he’s a rapist!” But rather my awareness is heightened. There’s only one reason that I am that way and that is because of potential. It’s a sad reality but I’m very used to it. I can see how that would be jarring for any man to read or hear- so I rarely say it out loud. EDITING TO SAY: I rarely say it out loud not because it doesn’t need to be said, but because it’s unpleasant to deal with the aftermath of saying it out loud. It would be nice to say it out loud and be met with curiosity, not the battle cry “Nonsense”.

What else can men do? Heres one to add to your list: lean into sensitivity, as opposed to leaning in to argument about how safe women “should” feel. (Which feels emotionally unsafe, btw)

Thank you for posting about this. I’m most interested in the idea that the constitution was written for religious people and that if the people are no longer religious, the constitution crumbles. Makes sense to me. that said, I imagine that people who are not religious, would take offense to such a statement. It might suggest that not being religious makes somebody bad or less than. I absolutely do not see it that way. For this reason, I will not be quoting this premise on my Facebook page lol- I don’t think the country has ever been perfect even when the constitution was fresh. I think religion creates a lot of problems. I can understand why people choose no religion in their lives. I can also see how the constitution was written in a way that requires a certain lawful mindset that religion requires.

Honestly Smac some folks just love to argue. I’d like to excuse myself now. This is ridiculous.

Let me make this clarification since smac seems personally attacked. If smac was on a secluded trail walking toward me, and i knew somehow it was smac from mormondialogue, id have no concerns for my safety. Same scenario, if i didnt know it was him at all, id be on high alert. i believe most people understand this without spelling it out , but just in case-

Want to add for full circle purposes that there are men In my life who are untrained formally that I would feel safe sharing a current situation of compromised safety with, in hopes of being believed validated and protected. Many on this site as well. There are many I deem as not leanable, who might question my experience, and I would hope they would not be my church leaders - but often they are. If I was assaulted today my bishop would not be my first stop. Would go to husband, police, friends, family and therapist in that order. No reason for bishop unless it was a ward member who caused harm.

I’m just an average gal. My experience with assault is pretty run of the mill. Was grabbed on the breast (not grazed, but grabbed and squeezed) in a crowded crosswalk. I presume by a man. Been flashed in public - full Monty- twice. Ran at and pinned to a wall by a naked man. Barricaded in a parking lot by a man who propositioned me as I was walking to the car. As a teen a 26 year old male from my ward was waiting for me at my bus stop and walked near me til I got home- I’d never spoken to him before. A man I babysat for tried to kiss me as he dropped me off- his wife was my yw advisor. Mom didn’t believe me. Recently asked by man behind me in grocery store to accompany him back to his place with zero conversation preceeding. cat calls galore. There’s the one major event that went to trial but I already shared that story. that’s top of mind- pretty normal stuff. All unacceptable. But I still love men. That is, those I have vetted as safe enough. Whenever a male comes to my home, if I haven’t met them, I request my husband be there. Band mates, home repairs etc. No exceptions, religion etc. It’s too bad. I advise the same to my daughters. I don’t consider myself imbalanced - I absolutely consider the world and danger imbalanced. Yes. Every man is a potential threat until I categorize him otherwise. I don’t think about it much, it’s just a way of life. I don’t point and yell “rapist” nor do I even think the word “rapist”- but for the purpose of this conversation, and I’m sure it lands hard, yes, every male is potentially dangerous to me. Sometimes, the threat is very very quickly mitigated. but there is zero exception to initial care I take especially when I’m isolated with a male I don’t know, and at times, isolated with a man I know, and at times, not isolated but around men I don’t know. Even in groups with men I know, I’m not 100% guaranteed safety unfortunately. but my life is good. I adore so many men that I surround myself with. Even many men on this site.

It isn’t fair that all men are suspect in certain circumstances. It’s really sad actually. There are a lot of unfair things in life. That’s hard. But, when it comes to instinct and safety, fairness and yes even political correctness sit in the back seat to reality. Back to topic at hand, there really is no good answer for training church leaders providing professional support in a church that operates on a layperson volunteer program, none that I can think of. I would not sign on to be the bishops advisor, any more than Smac should be the churches free lawyer. If a bishop wants to consult with me , they all know where to find me but I have never in 20 years had a bishop make an appointment to consult for how to handle tough parrishoners. That’s a travesty because plenty of bishops trust me enough to refer me to others. And as a therapist I myself am trained to consult with a therapist for tough cases. working with a fair number of LDS clients I’ve heard my fair share of complaints regarding leadership regarding how abuse, affairs, incest, excess handled. Obviously all one sided. But does anyone here really expect that Joe from accounting , just called as bishop, who has never asked to be or been trained to be a counselor is capable of handling serious life concerns from multiple individuals and know how without inflicting further trauma? Yikes. Stuff is going to happen.

I do view all men as potential rapists. All men. Until I have information that says otherwise. Context also matters. If I’m walking down a hallway with many people I’m not worried about each man or getting raped. But if I’m alone in a parking lot and any male I don’t know approaches, I’m preparing mentally for rape. every time. context matters.

My experience is vast and anecdotal., It’s just my opinion working as a professional therapist directly with Bishops and with numerous victims. I don’t know how much the church can do considering that this type of training would require a lot of time and effort and this is a Layperson church.

IMO church leaders are woefully undertrained regarding how to deal with perps. It’s hard enough as a trained therapist.

Hm. When I think of the oj case being bumbled I automatically go to Furman planting evidence. plenty of blame to go around on the mishandling of that case.

My opinion on this is just mine. But if the church is having a hard time retaining folks, that’s the church’s fault. It’s my opinion that a pure gospel based church experience would be beautiful and people would be flocking to be a part of it and remain. But, humans.

Indeed. Thank you for stating this . No one wins here.

Good.

Ok best to you -

Sometimes because of Jesus we put our foot down and insist on being treated respectfully and humanely. I’m not telling YOU to do things differently. I’m speaking for anyone reading, thinking they need to do things like you. best wishes, you’ve been through it.

I don’t think God has a choice 😅