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I think sometime before I became a teen, but maybe afterwards, Mom told me sometimes it was harder to live for someone than die for them. She had almost died a couple of times in her life, including as a child and had long lasting complications from them that she had to work hard and constantly to maintain a functioning body, so I think she had a decent background for her claim. We had just gotten home from church where someone had related the story of a mother choosing to put off cancer treatment because of being pregnant and leaving behind a young baby and several other young children because of her choice…or maybe it was in the church magazine that month. She was not dismissive of the sacrifice, she just thought recognition of what women (and men) had to do to live for their families should be praised as well. I do remember quite a few faith promoting stories of mothers dying for their children, how Christ like that was. Not much about how Christlike was washing dirty diapers while puking your guts out or fixing meals you can’t eat, etc. Mom taught me to look at the day to day stuff as marvels of love and charity and sacrifice, acceptable to God as much as giving up your life…it actually is just a different mode of giving up your life, most of the time not as permanent though.

Cal. Hi. You always put so much loving thought into your beliefs. May we meet in a happy place of peace. I won't say more until then.

I also had very high risk pregnancies and know the pain of losing a child. I knew that I had 3 children coming to me before they were born. Had I been faced in the situation of my life or the life of my first pregancy I would have made it a matter of prayer. Knowing I had 3 children, there is a chance, being prayerful I would have chosen my life to go on and trusted God with my first pregnancy. I made it a matter of prayer with the second child of whether to have one biologically or adopt. The answers were clear I should have one. If we came to the choice of me or that pregnancy I would made it a matter of prayer, but there is a chance the prayful answer would have been to choose my life to go on because my first child, a little boy, needed me. The same with the third pregnancy. Before my 3rd c-section we reminded the dr so many times about doing the tubal ligation and any other thing that could be done because we were confident that I wouldn't make it through another pregnancy. But there have been times since then that I have thought about what I would do if I got pregnant despite having surgery. Again we would have made it a matter of prayer and trusted the Lord and there is a chance we would have chose my life over a pregnacy while my children were still young. And maybe when they were older too. I no longer believe in the church, but still feel the same - we don't know God's whole plan for us or our children. We don't know when my first pregnancy truly became my son and the same for the other two. Our whole life has been filled with prayer, being willing to do what He wants and trusting Him. I'm happy to let other women work with God without me thinking I know better than they do about their own situations and I trust that God loves each of his children and has a plan for them, no matter how far they got in this life and how they left it.

Thanks cal. You are always so generous.

This is logical given the understanding of the soul and sin.

I think that’s a rational position.

In medieval times, it had not yet been determined that the soul comes into existence at conception. It wasn't that Aquinas would have accused the Mother of God of having sinned. Rather, it was undetermined at that time when the soul came into the body. It had to have occurred at least by the time of quickening, when the baby had mobility in the womb. In medieval times the timing of the entrance of the soul was undetermined. The teaching in the New Catechism (#366) is recent and does not affirm the timing. It only affirms that the soul is created "immediately" by God. The Catholic Encyclopedia of 1912 argues for why the current position of the Church satisfies the major premises of three schools of thought. But it does not reference a defined statement of the Church's doctrine either. www.newadvent.org/cathen/14153a.htm The question of timing appears to be more difficult than I have previously considered. For instance, twins are sometimes joined in the womb, before they split bodily. Are there two souls in one body before they split? I don't think we have that information at this time. The only hints I can think of is not from reasoning but revelation. When the Blessed Virgin visited Elizabeth after the Incarnation, the Christ child would have been only weeks old at the most. Elizabeth referred to Mary as "the mother of my lord." But even Elizabeth's inspired remark could be referring to the future. Ps. 51 has David saying that in sin he was conceived. Assuredly he is not referring to the marriage act. The Psalmists frequently resort to hyperbole. This could be another example of that. It would be a sola scriptura argument which as always, never settles doctrinal controversy. My reading of the New Catechism leaves the timing open according to how I read in #366. I think one would have to resort to the fallible teachings of St. Paul VI (Humanae Vitae) and John Paul II in regards to contraception and abortion. We are still learning all the time. We are trending towards ensoulment at conception. I have to admit that I do not think we are all the way there yet. Edit: Or maybe Catholics should infer ensoulment at conception because of the defined teaching of the Immaculate Conception. This does little for non-Catholics, but I think we could affirm that Mary could not be "immaculately conceived" without a soul for a length of time.

Generally, I think that it's inherently a crime for us to attempt to take a life in mercy because we aren't God and don't know what He does.

Death of a child or spouse are the worse life stressors on many scales for good reason, often dramatically so. I do consider myself lucky.

I actually agree with this. But the child has to live with the consequences whether the parent is the best or the worse. I don’t believe life is so great any suffering is worth it. I believe in mercy killing under very limited circumstances. Very, very limited if there can be no consent. If we can accept God will take life in mercy, why would such be inherently a crime? Carelessly, selfishly…that is sinful as in my view all things selfish and careless are (I don’t mean simple lack of attention here, but lack of caring, lack of emotional investment). I understand that others view things differently. I don’t judge anyone as not charitable or empathetic enough if they see things differently. People think differently based on biology, environment, experience, and likely imo the faint influence of their eternal self (quieted down so we can experience mortality mentally and spiritually independent as possible). I will judge people if they take away the parents’ choice (whether birth or abortion is forced…the latter is pure evil, imo; the first is understandable out of concern for the child) and then refuse to stick around to support the forced circumstances. Children shouldn’t have to pay for the actions of people not their parents even more than their parents. Back to abortion choices… It’s the children a mother may already have that rank first and foremost for me. In my belief, there’s not a back up plan for them if Mom dies or her health goes down the tubes, if their father is also their grandfather or uncle, etc. There is if there is a miscarriage, stillbirth, or abortion. God promised everyone a chance at life enough to receive a body and a wonderful afterlife. Not too many universal promises for the in between. He promised to heal our wounds as if they never existed; he never said all the pain and suffering should therefore be acceptable to us. He never dismissed hardship in such a way. He even went out of his way to remove unnecessary suffering caused by our sins if we let him. Yes, he pointed out it was a “small moment” in the expanse of existence. Yes, he mentioned others had it even harder. He did say we didn’t understand the full context in a couple of places, that there is often a purpose to the sufferings, a reason to endure, including to condemn the wicked…which is something I will be asking for an explanation for because it seems to be very unjust (I can see if the need was to participate because there would be a future softening of the heart, but why should a good person suffer just so a bad person can be punished? The wicked won’t get blessings, isn’t that enough?) Anyway….best not to jump ship when things get difficult or to push others overboard. There is a purpose to suffering. (Doesn’t mean we need to go look for it. Definitely doesn’t mean we should intentionally cause it for others.) So I am not even close to saying that every baby in difficult circumstances should be aborted. My preference would be not to, but I don’t see it as automatically short sighted, uninspired, immoral or otherwise not the best choice. I believe that sometimes miscarriage, stillbirth, or abortion is less harmful to a spirit than that specific life would be. I have known two women who are so fertile that even with two or more forms of birth control (it was impressive what they had tried), they typically got pregnant in a few months after their latest pregnancy. One kept miscarrying. She wanted a child, but needed her body to heal for a better chance. I think she finally managed to carry one to term. The emotional toll of going through that again and again was horrendous. And yes, they used abstinence a few times in there. Can’t remember if she chose to get sterilized or not. The other’s husband got a vasectomy after the sixth or seventh kid, iirc. His body apparently accepted sterilization when hers had not. Might have been fifth kid. Yes, they both could have abstained for years instead. But in most of the cases, their doctors assured them this time it would take. The fail rate of tubal sterilization is pretty low. They had taken reasonable precautions. If they hadn’t shared their experiences with me, I would have been clueless of the behind the scenes trauma. Would have thought the childless state of the first was a preferred choice (her husband was a grad student) and the many children of the second her plan from the beginning. Neither of them chose to abort. I think that was magnificent of them given life had been one long pregnancy and very short recovery from pregnancy for both for years and years. I don’t like pregnancy, didn’t dislike it either. It was meh. Even breastfeeding wasn’t a fulfilling experience for me. First kid did it so fast I didn’t have time to get comfortable and bond. Second kid…brain was going weird by then and I would fall into depression with let down. It is just the way I am wired I think given other experiences. I don’t adapt well to quick changes of state. OTOH, I adore my newborns and young ones. The tears come every time I think of them. I have lost them, never to see them again. The adults are way too different. I cannot have the same connection with them now that I did then. They don’t move, looks smell, or make sounds the way they did then. If I could care for my babies, I would have had many more. Postpartum is not great; worse was pregnancy was causing health issues to dramatically accelerate. My son was very independent, it he still needed me fully present, being able to have him as the center of my world. So I waited 8 years for the next one till I knew he could handle it better if I was emotionally or physically absent. I owed him that having chosen to bring him into the world. He should not have to pay for my actions. She took me down so hard and kept me down (my body responding to her needs) that after a few years we knew it was best to stop there. I would not have aborted if birth control (two kinds) failed and I got pregnant, but I would have mourned…and kept my mouth shut about the cost on the family it would be. Loved the adult versions too, btw. Not as intensely, as overwhelmingly I think, but as deeply. For anyone in difficult circumstances who decides after serious consideration, preferably much prayer and research into possibilities, to abort, I would mourn with them if they decide for their family this time an abortion is necessary. I am sooooo grateful when families are not placed in that position. I don’t know why our American society isn’t doing everything they can to help each family avoid being placed in circumstances where abortion feels like the only workable option. It saddens and angers me. I am not objective about that in the least though I have lots of objective reasons why we should be helping families in this way rather than just telling them it’s not allowed. It’s an intelligent way to grow our economy, strengthen our community, lower long term costs.

It is fun and so fulfilling to play in a healthy body. I still remember and treasure the feeling. I think it would be cool to experience different modes of strength, flexibility, etc.

If you weren’t so emotionally wound up around the wording here it would be obvious. Here are just a few of the experiences (with some details slightly modified) of just one woman I know: As a teenager, was followed repeatedly by man driving car while walking dog around her neighborhood Older brother of roommate at BYU (was RM and AP on his mission) repeated cornered and one time pinned her down while expressing interest in her. Study abroad in Europe host dad (from conservative family who had hosted women before) sexually assaulted her Man pretending to be Uber driver asks her to get in car while in hot tub at business conference with several female friends, was groped under the water by strange man While at a different business conference man broke into her hotel room while she was sleeping Attending concert random stranger grabbed her butt At family reunion trusted family member spied on her in shower I could go on and on. This is just one woman and just some of her many many traumatic experience experiences with men. The men might be strangers. They might be friends. They might’ve been known for years. It really is traumatic. Now it’s your turn please provide the shared traumatic experience that would lead you to say all gay men are potential pedophiles. I’ll wait.

I'd like for there to be no artificial barriers between anyone and anyone else. I'd like union and/or reunion with everyone and everything, and that includes all of you, with @The Nehor expessing as all of their genders. I would like to know and be known. I'd like to have understanding and I'd like to have something meaningful and challenging to work on, even if the latter means temporarily foregoing understanding. I'd like to play whatever my role is as part of All That Is.

I have extremely high risk pregnancies. I remember being asked who they should save if it came to that while in labor with my first. My son was the only thing I could think of. I would never have said me. I also am a mother who left the hospital with empty arms and got to pick out a casket for my daughter. I would have given my next breath for her to have lived. The only reason that I didnt go crazy with my grief was my 2 living children. I wanted too, I wanted to die from the pain of losing her. It is a pain that you cannot know unless you have been there. And if you don't know that pain, then you are incredibly lucky. I am the child that was not supposed to be born. Doctors told my mom that she would die and any baby would die or be a miscarriage. Obviously that was wrong. We were both fine. I strongly disagree with killing a baby for the actions of their parents. Two forms of birth control, or maybe dont have sex if you are not willing to have a baby.

Are you a mind reader? Cool! What am I thinking, right now?

Given that you're a sailor, I understand, completely, where you're coming from. I hope, though, in certain parts of the world and/or at certain sufficient elevations, there are four (or at least three) seasons.

What a lovely way to start the day (yep, just ate breakfast, woke up an hourish ago, takes me forever to get moving). Thank you.

Anyone reading my mind risks becoming as confused as I am. 🙂

This is something that I never thought of previously. It certainly has given me something to consider in the future. Thank you for the inspiration Calm.

Joy has different levels to it than happiness. I see it as closer to ecstasy. I think recognizing what you couldn’t have before, you now can have and having to work for it increases the dopamine hit when you get it. More dopamine, more intense experience. Happiness intensifies to joy. God knew what he was doing when he wired us up.

Perhaps when they were more righteous at the beginning they didn’t care to differentiate because status wasn’t important to them, they were just all family. So they adopted the name of their first family leader as their tribal name. The blessing might have influenced them to do so. And after time, Sam and Nephi’s family became so intermingled, most lost track. I can see the ruling families wanting to track because it gave credibility to their claims to trace to rulers, especially when pedigree became important again after class became an ugly part of their community. If Sam’s descendants never held positions due to Sam family connections, that would be less likely to track. The genealogies in scripture follow typically follow one line. They may not have thought of genealogy in the same way we do, tracking as many ancestors as we can. Or Sam just didn’t have sons who had children, which meant while he had seed, they would be counted among the father’s tribal lineage.

I think there would also be a greater ability to observe, listen carefully, pay attention to details, be precise in speaking (between all the increased mental ability those abilities should increase surely?). Iow, communication skills should flourish given how much potential we would have and endless time to learn. And if we have eternal companions, we would have a lot of experience with interpretation of expressions and moods and what they mean with certain words and phrases, so overtime misunderstandings should at least drop very, very low.

Surf a wave around an entire planet. Fly through a supernova. Ride a dinosaur. Build a polycule of twinks and tomboys. Create a tree that produces medium rare steaks. Try switching genders just to see what it is like. Test the electron moon scenario to see what would actually happen:

I personally think it is a massive emotional burden for a child to learn their mother died because of them. I was told I caused my mother’s back issues due to guiding the toboggan over a dip and felt guilty about that for way too long. I have no doubt it affected my self image, I was less because I had foolishly harmed my mother. I was no more than five or six at the time it happened. No way could I have been guiding the toboggan in any meaningful manner. I can’t believe my dad actually thought I was responsible and have no clue why he thought that would be funny. Or maybe he felt guilty and humor was a way to soften his guilt. Compare that to finding out, most likely when you are quite young, your mother died for you. I suspect it would be told as a sign that your mother loved you so much, but I have seen those types (someone sacrificed so much out of love) of messages backfire drastically too many times to believe that most kids would be comforted by that enough to counter the huge burden of guilt. And the mother isn’t there to constantly reassure the child it isn’t their responsibility that she chose that way as she should be doing for anything else. I personally don’t think sacrificing in a way that causes harm should be expressed as a sign of love for any child who is not yet emotionally mature enough to understand how love can turn a sacrifice into an opportunity, to be able to focus solely on the positive instead of getting fixated on how they harmed their parent or another. Even if it’s not death, but significantly harming her health…yeah, don’t see that as a good thing. It’s not a scar you can lay aside even when you get old enough to intellectually recognize you were not responsible. My mother was also told not to have children. I was her fourth pregnancy in four years and when she looked to miscarry, my dad and grandparents apparently went out to celebrate my death (I suspect they just went out for an previously arranged meal, but it got a new label) while my mother stayed home and prayed I would survive. Obviously I did. My mother loved to share with me that I was her miracle baby, how important I was to her. I fixated on my dad and grandparents preferring me dead rather than alive because of what it did to Mom (her health was crap by the time of her fifth child). I wonder how much that affected my relationship with my dad (he was autistic and didn’t make emotional connections well, especially with kids, but that’s not how I interpreted his behavior back then). I have a hard time imagining I am that unusual in my reactions in hearing how my mother was permanently harmed by me. I believe life is hard enough that knowledge isn’t a burden a child should carry. If a mother has done what she could with sterilization or birth control—though I agree using another form if possible is wise, not all women can afford sterilization or tolerate birth control hormones (that’s me) or IUds (me) or spermicides (thankfully not me, but I know some)—I don’t think because she chose to continue to have physical intimacy with her husband, she should risk a pregnancy if told by doctors it will significantly harm her. We now know the uterus can affect a woman’s health in ways beyond reproduction, so even a hysterectomy has costs. https://news.asu.edu/20240528-health-and-medicine-asu-research-finds-link-between-removal-uterus-brain-function I believe the spirit of an aborted baby is given another chance at life. I think there are too many miscarriages and stillborns that died without any harm done to them for God not to have a great plan arranged for those billions of spirits. Why would it be different for an aborted spirit who had no part in that choice? I also believe earlier abortions are much better than later ones, I would hope if that was the choice, it is done quickly. I don’t believe abortions should be done for convenience or health issues that are likely to be temporary and not a major cost. I also believe birth control should be free for those below a certain level of income at least if there are abortion laws earlier than the third trimester and always free maternal health care, pre and post natal as well as extensive nutrition support for families with children. It is self defeating to deprive children of minimal nutrition as that just limits their ability to function as an adult and contribute to the community and instead increases health care and productivity costs.. And a less healthy parent is going to not be able to care for their children as well, more likely adding childhood trauma, which has major health risks for adults…again a unnecessary burden on the community. The best way to prevent an abortion is to lower the need and desire to have one.