Is Our View Of "scripture" Wrong?

[JLHPROF]

The JoD isnot scripture, but are teachings of prophets, which we should consider prayerfully, based on more recent teachings and guidance by living prophets.

 

Exactly my point.  What are scriptures but teachings of earlier prophets?  Why do they rank higher that teachings in the Journals?

 

It's like we plot an inverse bell curve...

 

1. Ancient Prophets

3. Current Prophets

 

 

 

 

2. Early Church Prophets

 

Don't see why the teachings of number 2 are considered so much less reliable than numbers 1 & 3.

[mfbukowski]

He's a philosophy major. It's his fault, not yours.

Now how's about we head down to Tim Horton's and eat a bear claw?

You're not leaving me out are ya?

 

I can't help my affliction you know..  

Edited January 26, 2015 by mfbukowski

[Mars]

Was meant to be "we all"

[Freedom]

Tim Hortons it is. Of course, I look in my wallet and all I have is starbucks gift cards. Argh. 

[HappyJackWagon]

The incarnational view of Christ accepts him as both fully human and fully God. I think we can look at scripture in a similar way. Inspired scripture is fully of God, yet also has a filter which is fully human. In other words we can accept scripture as both inspired and fallible.

[Levi951]

All these evangelical threads have got me thinking and I have expressed this viewpoint in other threads but I'd like some feedback.

Forgetting for a moment the "translated correctly" clause we like to lean on, the scriptures - all of them (Bible, BoM, D&C, PoGP) contain two things:

 

1. The actual word of God

2. The teachings and records of his prophets.

 

I am willing to accept that when God speaks in scripture (as accurately as we have it recorded) that it is infallible if it is his word.

 

Why do we accept #2 so completely?

Why do the evangelicals assume that everything Paul wrote down is 100% correct?  Why do we assume that every revelation in the D&C is 100% correct?  Why do we assume that Mormon can't make a doctrinal mistake?

 

If we proceed on the assumption that the prophets in scripture were recording their teachings and we have recorded teachings from current prophets WHY do we rate one as infallible and the other as prone to opinions, errors etc?

 

Ideally there should never be a conflict in teaching, but IF there is, why do the prophets in scripture get more acceptance than the non-scriptural ones?  Why does Paul outrank Brigham?  Why should the teachings of Peter be more acceptable than the teachings of James?  Why should the teachings of David O. McKay be more acceptable than the teachings of John Taylor?

 

Why do we insist on creating an artificial hierarchy for accuracy in the recorded teachings of the prophets?  The scriptures ARE true but Paul had opinions, Peter had opinions, Mormon had opinions, Joseph Smith had opinions.  Wilford Woodruff had opinions..  Why rank?

2 Peter Ch 1: 18-21 Ch 2 1-3

"18. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. 19. We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20. Knowing, this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

1. But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be spoken evil of. 3. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not."

[Levi951]

The incarnational view of Christ accepts him as both fully human and fully God. I think we can look at scripture in a similar way. Inspired scripture is fully of God, yet also has a filter which is fully human. In other words we can accept scripture as both inspired and fallible.

2 Peter Ch 1: 18-21 Ch 2 1-3

"18. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. 19. We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20. Knowing, this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

1. But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be spoken evil of. 3. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not."

[mfbukowski]

2 Peter Ch 1: 18-21 Ch 2 1-3

"18. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. 19. We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20. Knowing, this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

1. But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be spoken evil of. 3. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not."

That's nice but guess what?  How do you KNOW that that scripture is "true"?  Why trust it to be scripture at all?

 

The only answer is that you have a testimony that it is true- a private revelation that it is true to start off with.  So the very admonition to NOT use private interpretation REQUIRES private interpretation to know that "we should not accept private interpretation."

 

It is essentially self-contradictory, a "Catch 22".  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catch-22_%28logic%29

 

Just a little epistemological problem there.

[Levi951]

That's nice but guess what?  How do you KNOW that that scripture is "true"?  Why trust it to be scripture at all?

 

The only answer is that you have a testimony that it is true- a private revelation that it is true to start off with.  So the very admonition to NOT use private interpretation REQUIRES private interpretation to know that "we should not accept private interpretation."

 

It is essentially self-contradictory, a "Catch 22".  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catch-22_%28logic%29

 

Just a little epistemological problem there.

Its important to trust God.

[mfbukowski]

Its important to trust God.

Of course, that is what testimony is.

[KevinG]

The map is not the territory.

[carbon dioxide]

Exactly my point.  What are scriptures but teachings of earlier prophets?  Why do they rank higher that teachings in the Journals?

 

It's like we plot an inverse bell curve...

 

1. Ancient Prophets

3. Current Prophets

 

 

 

 

2. Early Church Prophets

 

Don't see why the teachings of number 2 are considered so much less reliable than numbers 1 & 3.

I can see a reason that works at least for me  First, the scriptures are the official documents that the Church uses as is primary foundation.  All revelation that comes afterwards needs to be at least consistent with the foundation.  It is one reason I believe there will never be a revelation to the Church that allows SSM.  Such a practice is completely out of the bounds with the teachings in the Standard works. 

 

The journals may or many not contain new revelations.  But since they have not been put forth to the Church as official, the members are not bound to it.  We can read them and grow from them and the Holy Ghost can reveal many things to us when we read them for our personal growth but they do not rise to the level that God expects all members to accept or practice. 

 

I consider the teachings of living prophets a little higher than those that have passed for two reasons.  First living prophets are speaking to us in our day and circumstances and they might be a little different than the 19th century.  So they are more personally relevant to me.  Second, living prophets are alive.  So if there is a misunderstanding of what they are teaching, we can ask them for clarification.  Which is something that is hard to do with someone who is dead.  I do believe that Brigham Young was getting at something in his Adam-God statements but I think his statements as recorded have been highly misunderstood.  It would be nice to have Brigham Young teach us today on what exactly he meant and asking him real time questions for clarification.  Unfortunately he is dead and all we are left is a few statements here and there to figure out.

[mfbukowski]

The map is not the territory.

The steak is not the menu- William James (sort of....)

 

 

Reality versus symbols of reality

The lectures discussed the distinction between symbolism and reality. Symbols, such as the word "steak" on a menu, do not embody the actuality of the objects they represent. The word "steak" on a menu merely points to some slab of meat in the back of the restaurant. In a similar way, James posits that all of science is fundamentally detached from reality since the tools of science are merely pointers to some actual objective realm. He criticized his audience for the scientific tendency to ignore the unseen aspects of life and the universe. As an example, he discussed the way the notion of a lemon causes salivation in the mouth of an individual; while there is no lemon, there is clearly a process occurring worthy of academic inquiry.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Varieties_of_Religious_Experience

[Calm]

Now I know what I want for lunch.

[JLHPROF]

I consider the teachings of living prophets a little higher than those that have passed for two reasons.  First living prophets are speaking to us in our day and circumstances and they might be a little different than the 19th century.  So they are more personally relevant to me.

 

I hear this explanation a lot and I agree with it.  So did Brigham and Joseph.  But I have to say, I think it applies more to guidance in our lives and less to doctrine.

If a doctrine is true it doesn't change.  It shouldn't get reinterpreted, altered, adjusted, or disavowed.  What was true in 1850 is true in 1950, speaking doctrinally.

 

So while I 100% agree with the idea that current prophets are more valuable in leading God's people, I still see no reason why their views on doctrine should be considered more valuable.  Frankly, they shouldn't differ.

[carbon dioxide]

I hear this explanation a lot and I agree with it.  So did Brigham and Joseph.  But I have to say, I think it applies more to guidance in our lives and less to doctrine.

If a doctrine is true it doesn't change.  It shouldn't get reinterpreted, altered, adjusted, or disavowed.  What was true in 1850 is true in 1950, speaking doctrinally.

 

So while I 100% agree with the idea that current prophets are more valuable in leading God's people, I still see no reason why their views on doctrine should be considered more valuable.  Frankly, they shouldn't differ.

I agree and that is why I put the second part as well.  The teachings of the prophets in the 19th century regarding doctrinal issues is just valid then as it is today.  The difference for living prophets is if they say or write something that is hard for the members to understand, they can clarify what they said by some means.  Dead people can't clarify their history. I am confident that if we all got to sit down with Joseph Smith for an hour and asked him questions on polygamy and why he did this or that or said this or that, he would explain it to us so we would have a complete understanding of things.  But since we can't we are left to guess and have questions that will not be answered.  Brigham Young could explain where the ban on blacks holding the priesthood if he was alive or appeared to us in spirit.  But since that has not happened. we are limited in our understanding. 

Edited February 4, 2015 by carbon dioxide

[mfbukowski]

I hear this explanation a lot and I agree with it.  So did Brigham and Joseph.  But I have to say, I think it applies more to guidance in our lives and less to doctrine.

If a doctrine is true it doesn't change.  It shouldn't get reinterpreted, altered, adjusted, or disavowed.  What was true in 1850 is true in 1950, speaking doctrinally.

 

So while I 100% agree with the idea that current prophets are more valuable in leading God's people, I still see no reason why their views on doctrine should be considered more valuable.  Frankly, they shouldn't differ.

Why doesn't doctrine change?

[HappyJackWagon]

 

JLHPROF, on 04 Feb 2015 - 4:01 PM, said:

I hear this explanation a lot and I agree with it.  So did Brigham and Joseph.  But I have to say, I think it applies more to guidance in our lives and less to doctrine.

If a doctrine is true it doesn't change.  It shouldn't get reinterpreted, altered, adjusted, or disavowed.  What was true in 1850 is true in 1950, speaking doctrinally.

 

So while I 100% agree with the idea that current prophets are more valuable in leading God's people, I still see no reason why their views on doctrine should be considered more valuable.  Frankly, they shouldn't differ.

The problem with this view of doctrine is that it fails to recognize that every time a doctrine is discussed it is based upon the interpretation and communication skills of the person sharing. Joseph Smith will interpret and communicate differently than Thomas Monson. Another way of thinking about it is we never have a perfectly pure understanding of doctrine because it always passes through a human filter. Until God speaks directly to us, in person, the doctrine will never be disseminated perfectly. But even then, it will be received imperfectly by imperfect human's.

 

Understanding of what we believe is doctrine changes continually.

[JLHPROF]

Why doesn't doctrine change?

 

Because truth is eternal, and there are plenty of scriptures to show this.

 

If doctrine changes it is because our prophets taught it wrong.  Either the first ones or the recent ones.  But true doctrine doesn't change.

[DBMormon]

The Community of Christ view of scripture is intriguing and I really like it!

===============================================

 

It is important to note that we do not believe in scripture, but in the God to whom scripture points.  Through our books of scripture--Hebrew, Christian, and Restoration--we find an "indispensable witness" of Christ (D&C 163:7a).  They are the standard works by which God speaks to and shapes our community.  We turn to scripture in worship, for guidance, and to feel the peace of the Holy Spirit.  Scripture at its best provides our model for Christ-like living.

 

We understand scripture as an ongoing message between God and covenant peoples.  In scripture, we find both the voice of God and of the prophets and apostles.  Because the human voice is fixed in time and culture, we understand the limitations of scripture; because the Eternal voice is absolute, we proclaim the absolute nature of scripture, especially when its message is taken in its entirety.  As such, no one verse or set of verses should be used to oppress persons or act unjustly, for the message of scripture in its entirety is love, peace, compassion, and justice--or, in a word, Christ.

 

Community of Christ affirms: "Scripture is vital and essential to the church, but not because it is inerrant (in the sense that every detail is historically or scientifically correct). Scripture makes no such claim for itself. Rather, generations of Christians have found scripture simply to be trustworthy in keeping them anchored in revelation, in promoting faith in Christ, and in nurturing the life of discipleship. For these purposes, scripture is unfailingly reliable" ("Scripture in Community of Christ," Affirmation Five).

 

Recent inspired counsel on scripture, given by our prophet and recorded as D&C 163:7, reads:

 

Scripture is an indispensable witness to the Eternal Source of light and truth, which cannot be fully contained in any finite vessel or language. Scripture has been written and shaped by human authors through experiences of revelation and ongoing inspiration of the Holy Spirit in the midst of time and culture.

Scripture is not to be worshiped or idolized. Only God, the Eternal One of whom scripture testifies, is worthy of worship. God’s nature, as revealed in Jesus Christ and affirmed by the Holy Spirit, provides the ultimate standard by which any portion of scripture should be interpreted and applied.

It is not pleasing to God when any passage of scripture is used to diminish or oppress races, genders, or classes of human beings. Much physical and emotional violence has been done to some of God’s beloved children through the misuse of scripture. The church is called to confess and repent of such attitudes and practices.

Scripture, prophetic guidance, knowledge, and discernment in the faith community must walk hand in hand to reveal the true will of God. Follow this pathway, which is the way of the Living Christ, and you will discover more than sufficient light for the journey ahead.

Edited February 5, 2015 by DBMormon

[mfbukowski]

Because truth is eternal, and there are plenty of scriptures to show this.

 

If doctrine changes it is because our prophets taught it wrong.  Either the first ones or the recent ones.  But true doctrine doesn't change.

How do you know those scriptures are true?

 

The only thing eternal IS change. Heraclitus said truth was a river that is always changing and yet in another sense, never changing.  Too bad he lost the battle with Plato.

 

A little has happened since they built the pyramids.  The earth used to be flat you know.

Edited February 5, 2015 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

The Community of Christ view of scripture is intriguing and I really like it!

===============================================

 

It is important to note that we do not believe in scripture, but in the God to whom scripture points.  Through our books of scripture--Hebrew, Christian, and Restoration--we find an "indispensable witness" of Christ (D&C 163:7a).  They are the standard works by which God speaks to and shapes our community.  We turn to scripture in worship, for guidance, and to feel the peace of the Holy Spirit.  Scripture at its best provides our model for Christ-like living.

 

We understand scripture as an ongoing message between God and covenant peoples.  In scripture, we find both the voice of God and of the prophets and apostles.  Because the human voice is fixed in time and culture, we understand the limitations of scripture; because the Eternal voice is absolute, we proclaim the absolute nature of scripture, especially when its message is taken in its entirety.  As such, no one verse or set of verses should be used to oppress persons or act unjustly, for the message of scripture in its entirety is love, peace, compassion, and justice--or, in a word, Christ.

 

Community of Christ affirms: "Scripture is vital and essential to the church, but not because it is inerrant (in the sense that every detail is historically or scientifically correct). Scripture makes no such claim for itself. Rather, generations of Christians have found scripture simply to be trustworthy in keeping them anchored in revelation, in promoting faith in Christ, and in nurturing the life of discipleship. For these purposes, scripture is unfailingly reliable" ("Scripture in Community of Christ," Affirmation Five).

 

Recent inspired counsel on scripture, given by our prophet and recorded as D&C 163:7, reads:

 

Scripture is an indispensable witness to the Eternal Source of light and truth, which cannot be fully contained in any finite vessel or language. Scripture has been written and shaped by human authors through experiences of revelation and ongoing inspiration of the Holy Spirit in the midst of time and culture.

Scripture is not to be worshiped or idolized. Only God, the Eternal One of whom scripture testifies, is worthy of worship. God’s nature, as revealed in Jesus Christ and affirmed by the Holy Spirit, provides the ultimate standard by which any portion of scripture should be interpreted and applied.

It is not pleasing to God when any passage of scripture is used to diminish or oppress races, genders, or classes of human beings. Much physical and emotional violence has been done to some of God’s beloved children through the misuse of scripture. The church is called to confess and repent of such attitudes and practices.

Scripture, prophetic guidance, knowledge, and discernment in the faith community must walk hand in hand to reveal the true will of God. Follow this pathway, which is the way of the Living Christ, and you will discover more than sufficient light for the journey ahead.

Oh you mean the Bible is true insofar as it is translated correctly?

 

Yeah, I believe that too!

[Tacenda]

The Community of Christ view of scripture is intriguing and I really like it!

===============================================

It is important to note that we do not believe in scripture, but in the God to whom scripture points. Through our books of scripture--Hebrew, Christian, and Restoration--we find an "indispensable witness" of Christ (D&C 163:7a). They are the standard works by which God speaks to and shapes our community. We turn to scripture in worship, for guidance, and to feel the peace of the Holy Spirit. Scripture at its best provides our model for Christ-like living.

We understand scripture as an ongoing message between God and covenant peoples. In scripture, we find both the voice of God and of the prophets and apostles. Because the human voice is fixed in time and culture, we understand the limitations of scripture; because the Eternal voice is absolute, we proclaim the absolute nature of scripture, especially when its message is taken in its entirety. As such, no one verse or set of verses should be used to oppress persons or act unjustly, for the message of scripture in its entirety is love, peace, compassion, and justice--or, in a word, Christ.

Community of Christ affirms: "Scripture is vital and essential to the church, but not because it is inerrant (in the sense that every detail is historically or scientifically correct). Scripture makes no such claim for itself. Rather, generations of Christians have found scripture simply to be trustworthy in keeping them anchored in revelation, in promoting faith in Christ, and in nurturing the life of discipleship. For these purposes, scripture is unfailingly reliable" ("Scripture in Community of Christ," Affirmation Five).

Recent inspired counsel on scripture, given by our prophet and recorded as D&C 163:7, reads:

Scripture is an indispensable witness to the Eternal Source of light and truth, which cannot be fully contained in any finite vessel or language. Scripture has been written and shaped by human authors through experiences of revelation and ongoing inspiration of the Holy Spirit in the midst of time and culture.

Scripture is not to be worshiped or idolized. Only God, the Eternal One of whom scripture testifies, is worthy of worship. God’s nature, as revealed in Jesus Christ and affirmed by the Holy Spirit, provides the ultimate standard by which any portion of scripture should be interpreted and applied.

It is not pleasing to God when any passage of scripture is used to diminish or oppress races, genders, or classes of human beings. Much physical and emotional violence has been done to some of God’s beloved children through the misuse of scripture. The church is called to confess and repent of such attitudes and practices.

Scripture, prophetic guidance, knowledge, and discernment in the faith community must walk hand in hand to reveal the true will of God. Follow this pathway, which is the way of the Living Christ, and you will discover more than sufficient light for the journey ahead.

This is awesome!

[DBMormon]

This is awesome!

I know right?  This is a fowler stage 5 sort of take.