93 replies to this topic

[DBMormon]

Followerof Emmanuel - any time.  I wish I had seen this earlier.  sorry.  Good to hear from you again

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  How would I know if what I am doing is ever enough, so that the spirit won't leave me?  What does this look like for you?

When I am rebelling against God and not repenting, I lose the spirit.  When I make mistakes and repent and have a broken heart and contrite spirit, the Holy Ghost is with me.

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What Doctrine do you have that has brought you to your understanding?What do you do to prevent the spirit from leaving you? Thanks again for your willingness to share your perspectives.

I don't know what you mean by what Doctrine?  If you mean where in the scriptures do I get this 2nd Corinthians 12:9, Ether 12:27, Helaman 3:35, Moroni 10:32-33, and 2nd nephi 31 whole chapter/ to prevent the spirit from Leaving I try to be humble, repent, recognize without Christ I am nothing, try to serve him and act in his place, love him and my neighbors.  Reach upward and the spirit is there... stay at a plateau or rebel without repentance and I lose it

I agree with your scriptures completely - do you see a contradiction?

[followerofemmanuel]

reelmormon, on 01 June 2012 - 07:09 PM, said:

Followerof Emmanuel - any time.  I wish I had seen this earlier.  sorry.  Good to hear from you again

When I am rebelling against God and not repenting, I lose the spirit.  When I make mistakes and repent and have a broken heart and contrite spirit, the Holy Ghost is with me.

I don't know what you mean by what Doctrine?  If you mean where in the scriptures do I get this 2nd Corinthians 12:9, Ether 12:27, Helaman 3:35, Moroni 10:32-33, and 2nd nephi 31 whole chapter/ to prevent the spirit from Leaving I try to be humble, repent, recognize without Christ I am nothing, try to serve him and act in his place, love him and my neighbors.  Reach upward and the spirit is there... stay at a plateau or rebel without repentance and I lose it

I agree with your scriptures completely - do you see a contradiction?

I guess I am just wondering how you understand the spirit leaves people and then at what point? Do you understand that the spirit comes and goes in your life based on how faithfully you are living or once gone the spirit has left you period.  I guess when I read your post in felt like I interpreted it to mean, "you better be good or else I am leaving you"  I think I also have to understand who you believe the spirit to be.  I understand the spirit to be God.  So I guess maybe that’s where my questions should have started. Either way, what implications do you understand this to mean in a believers life?

The scriptures I posted have brought me to an understanding that the Holy Spirit teaches me, seals me unto the end and helps me in my weakness.  I believe we can grieve the Holy Spirit with unrepentance and acting as though we want nothing to do with God intervening in our lives.  If this is a season of sin, than I believe that God will discipline us until we return to him, but it is our choice. If you always lived pushin God away I guess I would doubt that someone had truly surrendered their life in faith to God. Something likes that. I am no theologian or acedemic so I apoligize in advanced for those who may read this and have any expectations for a high level discussion. As always, thanks for your grace folks.

Edited by followerofemmanuel, 03 June 2012 - 09:12 AM.

[DBMormon]

I know what it feels like not to have the Holy Ghost with me.  It is at times in my life when I have rebelled and sought to please the natural man and not God.  At those imes I find myself empty of his spirit.  The very moment I decide to repent and to come unto him, the sprit returns, gradually but in an assisting power that calls me to follow him.  It is not a matter of leaving for good.  Better put it is a matter of me walking away from him and his waiting for my return standing by ready to bless as soon as I do.  

Helaman 3:35  this coming unto christ and changing our natural man to be like him is all about "yielding our hearts to him"

[followerofemmanuel]

longview, on 26 May 2012 - 01:55 PM, said:

No.  There are two parts to the Atonement [Grace].  First part is unconditional [totally free] which is given to EVERY person born into this world regardless if they were monstrous people such as Hitler, Attila the Hun, or any other depraved or violent perpetrators.  That gift is the resurrection entailing the reunification of the body and the spirit [your actual person] with some degree of glory [Celestial, Terrestrial, Telestial, ...]

The other part is conditional but NOT in the sense that the Savior needs us to do part of the work.  Nothing we do will MERIT any fraction of the Atonement.  We are totally dependent on Him.  But He does require us to exert ourselves in obedience, faith [extremely important], learning, wisdom, empathy, humility, all things that we experience in this "vale of tears".  These efforts are required in order to fulfill the purpose for having mortal [probationary] experiences and to fully participate in the process of the Atonement which our Lord so graciously has offered to us, which is to exalt us and allow us to become like Him.  But not everybody will want to exist in the Celestial realm, they may prefer lower kingdoms or even outer darkness.



Not quite.  Repentance alone is not enough.  We will not MERIT anything with simple promises.  We need to go through a refining process . . .


Moroni 10:32

32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:20

20 For if you keep my commandments you shall receive of his fulness, and be glorified in me as I am in the Father; therefore, I say unto you, you shall receive grace for grace.

Thanks for all the information you have given.  I have had some time to read and ponder.  You had mention that you believe there are 3 degrees of Glory.  My next questions is who goes where and on what grounds. And in your view, is there a hell or lake of fire?  Thanks again!

[zerinus]

longview, on 26 May 2012 - 01:55 PM, said:

Not quite. Repentance alone is not enough. We will not MERIT anything with simple promises.  We need to go through a refining process . . .

Moroni 10:32

32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace is sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:20

20 For if you keep my commandments you shall receive of his fulness, and be glorified in me as I am in the Father; therefore, I say unto you, you shall receive grace for grace.

Repentance and keeping the commandments are two sides of the same coin.

[Storm Rider]

followerofemmanuel, on 03 June 2012 - 08:15 PM, said:

Thanks for all the information you have given.  I have had some time to read and ponder.  You had mention that you believe there are 3 degrees of Glory.  My next questions is who goes where and on what grounds. And in your view, is there a hell or lake of fire?  Thanks again!

Two coppers from a weak mind and a poor servant:  The Bible talks of three glories.  Who goes where really depends upon each individual.  Not everyone has been given the same opportunities for learning truth in this life and yet God has preprared a way for each to enter his presence or to obtain the greatest glory.  What is important is how each responds to truth and lives what truth they have been given.  Not a single person will be denied the Celestial Kingdom due to a lack of exposure to the Gospel of Jesus; each will be given the chance to learn, repent, obtain baptism and all other necessary ordinances.

In my personal view there is a hell.  For me hell is any degree of separation from God; it is the knowing that we could have dwelt in his presence and chose not to by bowing to the passions of mortality.  The lake of fire exists; but I also think of it as a place of utter darkness, an outer darkness if you will.  It is that point furtherest from God and where Satan and the sons of perdition reside.

[zerinus]

reelmormon, on 26 May 2012 - 03:33 PM, said:

Zerinus - the parable about lunch is wrong.  If your good behavior means you get Ice cream then on some level you merited it or  earned it.  Yet the scriptures say it is wholly upon the merits, mercy, and grace of God.

The actually being good doesn't get you the ice cream in my theology.  The trying or effort does.  God is not result based.  He looketh on the heart

My parable was not meant to be an accurate representation, but to provide a contrast with followerofemmanuel's parable; and from that point of view it was a correct representation.

[zerinus]

followerofemmanuel, on 03 June 2012 - 08:15 PM, said:

Thanks for all the information you have given.  I have had some time to read and ponder.  You had mention that you believe there are 3 degrees of Glory.  My next questions is who goes where and on what grounds. And in your view, is there a hell or lake of fire?  Thanks again!

Information about the three degrees of glory is not given in the Book of Mormon. It is given in section 76 of the Doctrine and Covenants:

http://www.lds.org/s.../dc/76?lang=eng

If you read that all the way through, it will answer all of your questions.

Edited by zerinus, 04 June 2012 - 01:59 AM.

[DBMormon]

D&C 88:21  Only the Sanctified inherit the Celestial Kingdom.   Only those who experience the mighty change and have the counteneance of Christ.  That can be chosen in this life or the next but can not be postponed when your opportunity comes.  These are individuals who repent and live the Doctrine of Christ either in this life if the opportuntiy presents itself or in the next.

The Terrestrial World is those who are good but do not want to live the Doctrine of Christ.  

The Tellestial World is for the those who rob and chaet and commit adultery and could care less about the impact of their choices on anyone but themselves

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D&C 76

And again, we saw the terrestrial world, and behold and lo, these are they who are of the terrestrial, whose glory differs from that of the church of the Firstborn who have received the fulness of the Father, even as that of the moon differs from the sun in the firmament.
73 And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh;
75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.
77 These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.
79 These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God.

80 And now this is the end of the vision which we saw of the terrestrial, that the Lord commanded us to write while we were yet in the Spirit.
82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.
84 These are they who are thrust down to hell.
86 These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;
88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of Salvation

Edited by reelmormon, 04 June 2012 - 04:24 AM.

[followerofemmanuel]

zerinus, on 04 June 2012 - 01:56 AM, said:

Information about the three degrees of glory is not given in the Book of Mormon. It is given in section 76 of the Doctrine and Covenants:

http://www.lds.org/s.../dc/76?lang=eng

If you read that all the way through, it will answer all of your questions.

Thanks, I will read that!

[followerofemmanuel]

reelmormon, on 04 June 2012 - 04:24 AM, said:

D&C 88:21  Only the Sanctified inherit the Celestial Kingdom.   Only those who experience the mighty change and have the counteneance of Christ.  That can be chosen in this life or the next but can not be postponed when your opportunity comes.  These are individuals who repent and live the Doctrine of Christ either in this life if the opportuntiy presents itself or in the next.

The Terrestrial World is those who are good but do not want to live the Doctrine of Christ.  

The Tellestial World is for the those who rob and chaet and commit adultery and could care less about the impact of their choices on anyone but themselves

Helpful.  Thank you!  So is Tellestrial kinda like hell?  Well, I should actually read the link before I ask anymore questions.  You guys are great!

[DBMormon]

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Helpful.  Thank you!  So is Tellestrial kinda like hell?  Well, I should actually read the link before I ask anymore questions.  You guys are great!

Hell in the sense that you missed out and wasted your chance to make a positive effect on you and others.  But still more glorious and beautiful then The earth we have now.   Also the Holy Ghost will be able to have influence there.

LDS theology aslo has a state called outer darkness where those who deny the holy Ghost or commit murder and do not repent will go.

[zerinus]

followerofemmanuel, on 04 June 2012 - 09:51 AM, said:

Helpful. Thank you! So is Tellestrial kinda like hell?

No. The telestial kingdom is a kingdom of glory, but a lesser glory than the terrestrial or celestial. Some of those who end up in the telestial kingdom may have to pass through hell for their sins; but the telestial is still a kingdom of glory, therefore it is not equivalent to hell.

[DBMormon]

Last Chapter
Salvation
    While I could spend a lot of time describing what Salvation holds in store for us, I feel that subject has been exhausted.  I would rather take a few minutes and help you to see the simpleness of the The Plan of Redemption is.  We are told the story of Moses as he held up the rod with the serpent on it.  Any who wanted to be saved from the effects of the bite from the fiery serpent that was sent from God , only had to look at the serpent upon the rod.  We are told that many of them perished because they refused to look upon it.  We are even told the reason for this decision.  They had refused to look because of the easiness of it.  The gospel symbolism should be jumping out at us.  The serpent here is Christ.  He on the cross having made an atonement for us, having provided a simple way, an easy way.  Faith, Repent, receive ordinances, and keep trying everyday.  Essentially to yield your heart to him (Helaman 3:35).

    It doesn't get any easier then that and yet many in the church and out of it refuse to look to Christ and the way because of the easiness of it.  They want to be measured by their works, thinking they are doing better than others.  They don't realize no matter how good they are or how much they do, it is not enough.  Doing works simply for the value that one thinks they have is motivated by pride.  The Savior is looking for humility.  One who humbles himself and turns his heart over to Christ will have works motivated by his heart and the works over time will have increased by God's Grace.

    The Savior and Lucifer both were seen In the pre-existent council as admirable.  They were both ones others looked up to.  In regards to their works prior to the rebellion one could assume their works were similar.  The difference was to be found in what motivated them and to whom or what where their hearts yielded to.  Lucifer's heart was full of pride and a desire to glorify himself.  Lucifer wanted our return to be based on a perfect works system.  He saw a plan where we would all choose the right and all of us make it back.  You see, the plan had each of us being judged by our works, which works would have been perfect.  If God truly desired a works based righteousness from his children, Satan would have presented the better plan.  The Savior had yielded his heart and will to his Heavenly Father and Jesus was full of humility.   His way included agency which meant mistakes would be made.  His way included faith and repentance, it included a Savior who would lay down his life so that mistakes could be forgiven and forgotten.  God cares so much more for his children then we will ever understand and all he ask for is our heart, not our perfection.  If our heart is in the right place then while it may take eternity, the perfection will come.  We will have the time needed to become perfect if only we will begin this day and every day hereafter to head towards God and his only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ, who hath laid down his life for us.

    2^nd Nephi 31:19-21 clearly explains that the principles laid out here are the pure doctrine of Christ.  It is the only and true doctrine for us to return to our Heavenly Father.