Article: A Female Episcopal Priest Visits A Mormon Temple

[Pahoran]

Bluebell and Selek1 -

(instead of hitting the quote button I just addressed the post to you two - I'll figure it out in time I hope.)

While I do appreciate everything you say in response to my post, I am left feeling a bit . . . unenlightened.

Let me ask this: Do you believe that if a person is not a temple worthy Mormon, and they die after they are eight years old, and they are not the subject of post-mortem proxy, they cannot get into the Celestial Kingdom and will therefore never meet God or Jesus?

btw, I've heard non-Mormons characterized as lost, fallen, and sinful, but "beastial?"

Welcome to the forum, Law22.

Selek was, of course, talking with tongue in cheek; I should have thought that was obvious.

Others have already addressed your questions, so I'd like to follow up with a question of my own: what, if anything, do you believe needs to happen for a mortal to receive salvation?

You see, we've seen more than our share of what I call "Hermit Crab" posters: people who merrily pick and jab at LDS teachings (or their perceptions thereof) while carefully keeping the vulnerabilities of their own faith positions carefully concealed. So my question is asked in the interests of full disclosure and a level playing field.

Regards,

Pahoran

[selek1]

As stated above, the LDS people and the Mormon faith are not interested in condemning those who seek Christ- but rather we invite all men (and women, too) to join us on a path that will ultimately lead them to know the Savior, and to become joint heirs with him.

The Episcopal minister mentioned in the OP gets that. And while she does not agree with our theology or practice, she can at least see how it might be of value to sincere disciples of Christ.

Unfortunately, there far too many who adopt the legalistic, checklist mindset of the teacher in the following video.

They have lost sight of the beauty of the Gospel, and of the unfathomable gift which they have been offered.

Ultimately, Christ will welcome all who are humble, penitent, and who truly, genuinely seek after him- for all such will reconcile themselves to his Gospel and his Grace.

[Buzzard]

How did a nice warm, fuzzy thread like this one devolve so? I guess if you can't start your own provocative thread due to your newbieness, just hijack one, no matter how seemingly unrelated.

But it was a nice article.

[Calm]

That's how they're doing it in all the new temples, including those being renovated. Going 'back' to a form of Salt-Lake-progressive-style! (Creation, Garden, and Telestial/World sequences all together in one beautifully mural-ed World room, followed by a physical move into the Terrestrial Room, and then, as always, a Celestial Room). I love it.

I experienced this first in the Cardston temple, moving up around the core of the temple on staircases. It makes the experience more meaningful between the symbolism of rising up through the kingdoms as well as the different surroundings creating a different mood...plus gives my legs a nice break from sitting.

Edited April 23, 2012 by calmoriah

[Robert F. Smith]

If a non-Mormon can find God in a Mormon temple, can a Mormon find God in a non-Mormon church?

I have found God very much present in the orthodox synagogues I have attended.

[why me]

If a non-Mormon can find God in a Mormon temple, can a Mormon find God in a non-Mormon church?

Yes. Many times when I am sitting inside a catholic church, I feel the pressence of god. At times I have thought of it as the holy spirit resting there. I don't believe that mormons believe that god can only be felt in their meetings. God's pressence can be found among the holy and he dwells in holy places.

[why me]

How did a nice warm, fuzzy thread like this one devolve so? I guess if you can't start your own provocative thread due to your newbieness, just hijack one, no matter how seemingly unrelated.

But it was a nice article.

I think that we are back on track now.Difficult to stir up the troops when the troops are finding god in holy places and not just in the temple or in a lds meeting. Mormons are very tolerant of other faiths, regardless of what critics and exmembers may think.

[Anakin7]

Absolutely.

Amen To That !.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[cinepro]

I have found God very much present in the orthodox synagogues I have attended.

I'm curious if other LDS think there are any religions that won't feel God's presence? Do non-Christian religions? Can Pagans or Druids? If a group of atheists got together to do community service (such as planting trees or working at a soup kitchen), could they feel God's spirit?

[Saints Alive]

I think feeling God's presence is more about the mindset and motivations of the individual than the location or building they are in.

[Buzzard]

I'm curious if other LDS think there are any religions that won't feel God's presence? Do non-Christian religions? Can Pagans or Druids? If a group of atheists got together to do community service (such as planting trees or working at a soup kitchen), could they feel God's spirit?

I think that there are some belief systems that if they felt the spirit, they would not recognize/acknowledge their experience thusly.

[cinepro]

I think that there are some belief systems that if they felt the spirit, they would not recognize/acknowledge their experience thusly.

Even so, this line of thought is interesting in that there seem to be members of churches (including LDS) who attend services and "feel the spirit" and then attribute specific meanings about the "truth" of their church based on this experience. But I'm not sure we all agree on what "the spirit" actually means in this context.

I can understand other Christians feeling "the spirit", as it would make sense for God to want to encourage people in a line of worship that acknowledges Jesus and the atonement.

But why would God send The Holy Ghost to a meeting of Scientologists? Or Druids? Where do we draw the line? Would God ever send His Spirit to a Tony Robbins seminar?

Edited April 23, 2012 by cinepro

[altersteve]

I'm curious if other LDS think there are any religions that won't feel God's presence? Do non-Christian religions? Can Pagans or Druids? If a group of atheists got together to do community service (such as planting trees or working at a soup kitchen), could they feel God's spirit?

Anyone can feel God's Spirit, whether they recognize it or not.

[ERMD]

Thank you so much for the link but I've read it.

You're obviously not really looking for answers to your "questions" but rather trolling to make a point.

[Law22]

Welcome to the forum, Law22.

Selek was, of course, talking with tongue in cheek; I should have thought that was obvious.

Others have already addressed your questions, so I'd like to follow up with a question of my own: what, if anything, do you believe needs to happen for a mortal to receive salvation?

You see, we've seen more than our share of what I call "Hermit Crab" posters: people who merrily pick and jab at LDS teachings (or their perceptions thereof) while carefully keeping the vulnerabilities of their own faith positions carefully concealed. So my question is asked in the interests of full disclosure and a level playing field.

Regards,

Pahoran

Thank you for the welcoming post! Yes, I did assume the "beast" reference was in jest. Hence the smiley face.

I have been involved in a couple different churches over the years, to include the LDS church. Although I suppose the jury is still out, or maybe out once again, concerning my own beliefs, I do believe in Christ as my savior, and that salvation is born solely of His grace. I attend a non-denominational church every Sunday. I am not at all interested in being a hermit crab, but do look forward to further discussions here. To that end, I would admit that I sometimes tend toward the blunt, but honestly mean no offense. I am perfectly comfortable in my faith, and yours, and welcome your guidance and constructive criticisms as I come to understand the nature and purpose of this board.

[Law22]

Addressing your qualifiers one at a time, they strike me as arbitrary and artificial . . .

Ultimately, your argument and litany of qualifiers fails . . .

Going back to your overall question however: It is possible that someone who is not a temple-worthy Mormon, who died above the age of eight, and who was not subject to proxy baptism will be allowed into the Celestial Kingdom.

But the circumstances would be so rare and unusual that it would be easier for a camel to walk through the eye of a needle.

Actually, I worded the question as I did so as to preclude the necessity to bring them up in answer to the question. Sort of ironic in light of your response isn't it?

They are not at all arbitrary or artificial, and they are not "mine." They are as taught by the LDS church.

Your last remark is really interesting and news to me. Can you explain how this would be possible according to LDS doctrine?

[Law22]

You're obviously not really looking for answers to your "questions" but rather trolling to make a point.

No, I was looking for answers.

[Law22]

I think that we are back on track now.Difficult to stir up the troops when the troops are finding god in holy places and not just in the temple or in a lds meeting. Mormons are very tolerant of other faiths, regardless of what critics and exmembers may think.

I would agree that Mormons are tolerant of other faiths. However, many Mormons are decidedly intolerant of others' questioning of Mormon doctrine. I'm hoping that isn't true here.

[Law22]

L

LDS believe that whether or not someone get's to 'meet' Jesus or God is not based on which church has their records. . .

Do you believe that someone can gain eternal life without doing what Christ has said must be done to gain it? . . .

My understanding of LDS doctrine is that a person cannot get into the Celestial Kingdom unless they are LDS in life or become LDS by proxy in death. It is further my understanding that the Celestial Kingdom is where God and Christ reside, and that if you wind up in the lesser Heavens you might be visited by either Christ or the Holy Spirit but you will not live with either and you will never meet God.

No, I do not believe a person can gain eternal life without doing what Christ said must be done to gain it.

[Law22]

How did a nice warm, fuzzy thread like this one devolve so? I guess if you can't start your own provocative thread due to your newbieness, just hijack one, no matter how seemingly unrelated.

But it was a nice article.

I do apologize for the hijack, if that's what i did. I think my first post was on point anyway. My second post was in response to another post. I will try to be more careful in the future, and look forward to being able to post a thread.

[Storm Rider]

My understanding of LDS doctrine is that a person cannot get into the Celestial Kingdom unless they are LDS in life or become LDS by proxy in death. It is further my understanding that the Celestial Kingdom is where God and Christ reside, and that if you wind up in the lesser Heavens you might be visited by either Christ or the Holy Spirit but you will not live with either and you will never meet God.

No, I do not believe a person can gain eternal life without doing what Christ said must be done to gain it.

You are repeating what some LDS believe exists in the salvation found between the different kingdoms or glories: celestial, terrestial, and telestial. However, the LDS Church has no clear doctrine on exactly what all the kindgoms and the plethora of disvisions within each kingdom looks like. Most that you state is supposition.

Becoming LDS is less than adequate descriptor and is misleading also. Baptism does not denote becoming a Mormon or a LDS; it denotes entering into the Kingdom of God. It is the first ordinance that Christ taught would open the doors of heaven. We cannot be saved without being baptised.

At some point all will bend the knee and acknowledge that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, and Savior of the world. Everyone, everyone, will have the opportunity to enter into the Celestial Kingdom if that is what is desired.

[Law22]

You are repeating what some LDS believe exists in the salvation found between the different kingdoms or glories: celestial, terrestial, and telestial. However, the LDS Church has no clear doctrine on exactly what all the kindgoms and the plethora of disvisions within each kingdom looks like. Most that you state is supposition.

Precisely what part of what I wrote is supposition?

[bluebell]

My understanding of LDS doctrine is that a person cannot get into the Celestial Kingdom unless they are LDS in life or become LDS by proxy in death.

Again, it really has nothing to do with which church a person is a member of. If a person has covenanted with Christ and become His son or His daughter, and has remained in that covenant for their entire lives (with repentance of course) then they are saved.

If that is true (as LDS believe it is) then the issue becomes, how does one covenant with Christ and become His son or daughter?

Again, LDS believe that it is through baptism, by someone who has the authority to act in the name of Christ. The baptism is not important because it makes someone a member of a certain church (though LDS believe it certainly has that function), but it is important because it makes someone a part of Christ's family and therefore gives them access to His grace.

Therefore, the issue isn't, can someone gain eternal life without becoming LDS. It is, can someone gain eternal life without covenanting with Christ through baptism? Again, LDS believe the answer to that question is no (other Christian religions obviously disagree about the role of baptism in salvation, but that's a different discussion).

In the end, LDS Christians and non-LDS Christians agree (except maybe calvinists-i don't understand TULIP doctrine enough to speak on that) that no one can gain eternal life without doing or believing what Christ has commanded must be done or believed to gain it.

What we do disagree on is what that something is which Christ has commanded we must do. That we disagree doesn't mean we are speaking ill of each other's religious beliefs or churches (at least, i've never thought that a Christian was demeaning Judaism, for example, when they taught that no one can be saved without having faith in Christ-but maybe other people do see it that way). It just means we disagree.

It is further my understanding that the Celestial Kingdom is where God and Christ reside, and that if you wind up in the lesser Heavens you might be visited by either Christ or the Holy Spirit but you will not live with either and you will never meet God.

That's the basics of it. In the LDS religion, the Celestial Kingdom is the equivalent of 'Heaven' for most other Christians.

No, I do not believe a person can gain eternal life without doing what Christ said must be done to gain it.

Then we agree on that.

Edited April 26, 2012 by bluebell

[wenglund]

Again, it really has nothing to do with which church a person is a member of. If a person has covenanted with Christ and become His son or His daughter, and has remained in that covenant for their entire lives (with repentance of course) then they are saved.

If that is true (as LDS believe it is) then the issue becomes, how does one covenant with Christ and become His son or daughter?

Again, LDS believe that it is through baptism, by someone who has the authority to act in the name of Christ. The baptism is not important because it makes someone a member of a certain church (though LDS believe it certainly has that function), but it is important because it makes someone a part of Christ's family and therefore gives them access to His grace.

Are you sure this applies to children who died prior to the age 8? Do they need to be baptized by proxy in order to become a son or daughter of Christ?

It is my understanding that, contrary to what Law22 suggest, children who died prior to the age of 8 don't need to have been a member of the Church or baptized by proxy to enter the Celestial kingdom.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Law22]

Are you sure this applies to children who died prior to the age 8? Do they need to be baptized by proxy in order to become a son or daughter of Christ?

It is my understanding that, contrary to what Law22 suggest, children who died prior to the age of 8 don't need to have been a member of the Church or baptized by proxy to enter the Celestial kingdom.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I did not mean to suggest that, in fact I meant to suggest the same understanding as you indicate: that children under the age of eight go straight to the Celestial Kingdom.