Article: A Female Episcopal Priest Visits A Mormon Temple

[bluebell]

Are you sure this applies to children who died prior to the age 8? Do they need to be baptized by proxy in order to become a son or daughter of Christ?

It is my understanding that, contrary to what Law22 suggest, children who died prior to the age of 8 don't need to have been a member of the Church or baptized by proxy to enter the Celestial kingdom.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

That's right. Christ has declared that His Atonement automatically extends His saving grace to such children, without them having to 'enter in at the strait gate'. They are the only group who really can do nothing and be saved.

I was under the impression that Law22 understood this concept, so that's why i didn't explain it. Thanks for bringing it up though because others following along in the conversation might have been confused.

[Law22]

Again, it really has nothing to do with which church a person is a member of . . .

What we do disagree on is what that something is which Christ has commanded we must do. That we disagree doesn't mean we are speaking ill of each other's religious beliefs or churches . . . It just means we disagree.

Huh? As per LDS doctrine, It has everything to do with what church a person is a member of. For goodness sake, isn't that what baptism for the dead is all about? Giving a person one last chance to join the LDS church so they can get into the Celestial Kingdom, and if they choose not to join, the are forever banished from God's presence?

I totally understand and agree that you and other members of the LDS church do not mean to speak ill of other's religious beliefs, but by adopting a doctrine that completely precludes non-LDS from ever meeting God or living with Christ sort of has that effect now doesn't it?

[altersteve]

Huh? As per LDS doctrine, It has everything to do with what church a person is a member of. For goodness sake, isn't that what baptism for the dead is all about? Giving a person one last chance to join the LDS church so they can get into the Celestial Kingdom, and if they choose not to join, the are forever banished from God's presence?

I totally understand and agree that you and other members of the LDS church do not mean to speak ill of other's religious beliefs, but by adopting a doctrine that completely precludes non-LDS from ever meeting God or living with Christ sort of has that effect now doesn't it?

You seem to have completely missed bluebell's point. Also, baptism for the dead does not allow one to "join the LDS church." It allows one to accept the ordinance of baptism. Simply being a member of the Church does not get you into the celestial kingdom.

[Law22]

You seem to have completely missed bluebell's point. Also, baptism for the dead does not allow one to "join the LDS church." It allows one to accept the ordinance of baptism. Simply being a member of the Church does not get you into the celestial kingdom.

That I may have missed the point is entirely possible. I get that simply being a member of the Church will not alone get me into the Celestial Kingdom. Much, much more is required as per LDS doctrine. The question is, can I get into the Celestial Kingdom if I am not a member of the Church? Answer: No.

And forgive my poorly worded comments. I know that when LDS perform a baptism for the dead, the dead person's name does not get added to the membership list. However, neither does an LDS baptism for the dead simply "allow one to accept the ordinance of baptism." It is meant to allow one an opportunity to accept the ordinance of an LDS baptism. No LDS - No Celestial Kingdom/Know LDS - Know Celestial Kingdom, or something like that.

[Deborah]

No LDS - No Celestial Kingdom/Know LDS - Know Celestial Kingdom, or something like that.

At least we allow a kingdom of glory. Many believe LDS are going to hell.

The point is of course every person in LDS theology has the opportunity to accept the fullness of Christ's gospel or to receive a portion. It is their choice. What other church offers that even for those who haven't had the opportunity to hear it in this life.

[zerinus]

Huh? As per LDS doctrine, It has everything to do with what church a person is a member of. For goodness sake, isn't that what baptism for the dead is all about? Giving a person one last chance to join the LDS church so they can get into the Celestial Kingdom, and if they choose not to join, the are forever banished from God's presence?

I totally understand and agree that you and other members of the LDS church do not mean to speak ill of other's religious beliefs, but by adopting a doctrine that completely precludes non-LDS from ever meeting God or living with Christ sort of has that effect now doesn't it?

Baptism, whether it is for the living or the dead, is required by the gospel:

Matthew 28:

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Mark 16:

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Notice that neither of these scriptures talk about joining a particular church, but simply being baptized. The question is, Who has the authority to perform such baptisms? As it turns out, we believe that an apostasy occurred in the early Christian Church, as a result of which the priesthood authority to perform such baptisms was lost; and that the authority to perform it now exists only in the LDS Church. Now if you insist on calling that "becoming a member of the LDS Church," you are free to do so. You do become a member of the LDS Church as a result of such baptism. But I prefer to stick to the Lord's own expression: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved."

[Law22]

But I prefer to stick to the Lord's own expression: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." . . .

With all due respect, wouldn't it be fair to say that the scripture has been amended to say: "He that believeth and is baptized by a member in good standing of the LDS church who has the authority to do so shall be saved." ?

Btw, why are you (and others here) shy about coming out and simply saying that only LDS will get into the Celestial Kingdom and live with God and Christ for all eternity? Its ok. Really.

[selek1]

With all due respect, wouldn't it be fair to say that the scripture has been amended to say: "He that believeth and is baptized by a member in good standing of the LDS church who has the authority to do so shall be saved." ?

No- it would be polemical and dishonest to say that- or even to insinuate that this is what we believe.

Btw, why are you (and others here) shy about coming out and simply saying that only LDS will get into the Celestial Kingdom and live with God and Christ for all eternity? Its ok. Really.

We do not say it because we do not believe it.

And we resent you attempting to put words in our mouths to make it appear as though we do.

We believe that baptism into the true Church of Jesus Christ is necessary- and we make every effort to afford that opportunity to every soul in need of it, living and dead.

That having been said, the phrase "of Latter-day Saints " is both specific and accurate. It- and it alone- holds the keys of the priesthood and authority of the true Church of Christ in this dispensation.

As such, it is a subset of the true Church, not the whole.

Others have held the keys to the true Church in other times. They are not "LDS" as you use the term- but they were members of the true Church of Christ, as are we..

A basic analogy is this: Boy Scout Troop #123 is a chapter of the Boy Scouts of America. Any member of Troop 123 is also, by definition, a member of the BSA.

Every member of Troop 123 belongs to the BSA, but not every member of the BSA is a member of Troop 123.

Likewise, we are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are members of the Church of Christ, but not every member of the Church of Christ is a Latter-day Saint.

Proxy baptism is not an "LDS" baptism- but one offered by those with the proper authority and priesthood keys. It in not baptism into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but into the Church of Jesus Christ.

We believe that any member of the true Church of Christ who is faithful to his or her covenants can achieve the Celestial Kingdom- not merely members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Your spin to the contrary is partisan, dishonest, and intended only to stir up contention and resentment.

It is not "Christian" in either word or deed, and it is not true.

Yes- we believe that we (and we alone) currently hold the keys to the fulness of the Gospel. We believe that man will get closer to God by abiding by the precepts of the Gospel (as we understand them) than by any other means.

But we do not believe that this dispensation and this incarnation of the Church are the sum and total of the Gospel or of God's interaction with man.

Edited April 29, 2012 by selek1

[selek1]

That I may have missed the point is entirely possible.

Particularly when one has a vested interest in doing do.

I get that simply being a member of the Church will not alone get me into the Celestial Kingdom. Much, much more is required as per LDS doctrine. The question is, can I get into the Celestial Kingdom if I am not a member of the Church? Answer: No.

Ironically- you are the only one here making this contention. We have not.

There are only two possibilities:

1) we are what we claim to be.

2) we are not what we claim to be.

If the former is true, then those who knowingly reject us will bear the consequences of that choice.

If, however, the latter is true, then we will be judged by Christ based on how well we strove to serve him and to rely on his incomparable grace.

If the Church is true, then those who knowingly reject it have chosen their fate.

If the Church is not true, we are no worse off than many millions of other professed Christians striving to serve the Lord as best they know how.

Either way, if you are really a disciple of Christ instead of merely a sectarian partisan, does it truly matter how you returned to Christ so long as you got there?

It is meant to allow one an opportunity to accept the ordinance of an LDS baptism.

This is false, for the reasons mentioned above.

A baptism by one who holds the keys and is acting with the proper authority is necessary.

Not all such are LDS- but all derive their authority from the same source as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

[zerinus]

With all due respect, wouldn't it be fair to say that the scripture has been amended to say: "He that believeth and is baptized by a member in good standing of the LDS church who has the authority to do so shall be saved."?

Not quite. The original meaning of the verse was, "He that believeth and is baptized [by one having authority] shall be saved;" and that is the meaning of it today. Nothing has changed.

Btw, why are you (and others here) shy about coming out and simply saying that only LDS will get into the Celestial Kingdom and live with God and Christ for all eternity? Its ok. Really.

Because strictly speaking it is not true. Those who are baptized by proxy do not become "LDS," in the sense of becoming members of the LDS Church here on earth. The do, however, become members of "God's elect," those whose names are "written in the book of life," which is the same as what happened to those who were baptized anciently. There was only one Church anciently, and there is one Church today.

Edited April 29, 2012 by zerinus

[Law22]

Particularly when one has a vested interest in doing do. . .

A baptism by one who holds the keys and is acting with the proper authority is necessary.

Not all such are LDS- but all derive their authority from the same source as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

When you say "not all such are LDS," who are you referring to?

[Law22]

Not quite. The original meaning of the verse was, "He that believeth and is baptized [by one having authority] shall be saved;" and that is the meaning of it today. Nothing has changed.

Because strictly speaking it is not true. Those who are baptized by proxy do not become "LDS," in the sense of becoming members of the LDS Church here on earth. The do, however, become members of "God's elect," those whose names are written in the "book of life," which is the same as what happened to those who were baptized into the Church anciently. There was only one Church anciently, and there is only one Church today.

So would a more accurate statement be that only LDS, and those who have died and then been baptized by LDS, and choose to accept LDS doctrine, will get into the Celestial Kingdom? To the extent this has not been made clear, I am referring to what will happen to people today, not what might have happened to people prior to any apostasy.

Btw, thank you for being civil and not calling me names.

[selek1]

When you say "not all such are LDS," who are you referring to?

We know that there have been at least two other dispensations: followers of Christ in the Book of Mormon era and setting, and Christ's ministry in the Old World.

We can also assume (based on the Scriptural evidence) that the fulness of Priesthood authority was held in earlier Biblical eras.

Each of these dispensations was populated by priests with the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven.

And yet- by definition- none of them were members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

So would a more accurate statement be that only LDS, and those who have died and then been baptized by LDS, and choose to accept LDS doctrine, will get into the Celestial Kingdom?

No- for the reasons listed above.

It is not "LDS doctrine" it is Christ's doctrine.

It does not belong to what is ultimately a temporary subset of the Church but to the Church as a whole.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a temporary organization- a temporary distinction lasting only until the Church as a whole is unified during the Resurrection and Millenium.

When the whole is restored, we will not be Latter-day Saints- or Baptists, or Catholics. We will either be Saints- or be something less.

As has been stated repeatedly- we will be judged according to the light and knowledge we received and how we lived our lives according to that knowledge.

A Calcutta beggar or an Australian aborigine will not be condemned for his failure to embrace a doctrine or theology to which he was never exposed, but instead will be judged according to the light he did receive and the life he lived.

Those who made the most of the light and wisdom they were offered- those who were good and faithful servants (whether Mormon, Catholic, atheist, or Democrat), those who were obedient to the law they received, and those who were humble and penitent before God- will advance to the Celestial Kingdom.

Those who did not, will not.

[Law22]

We know that there have been at least two other dispensations: followers of Christ in the Book of Mormon era and setting, and Christ's ministry in the Old World.

We can also assume (based on the Scriptural evidence) that the fulness of Priesthood authority was held in earlier Biblical eras.

And yet- by definition- none of them were members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

It is not "LDS doctrine" it is Christ's doctrine.

A Calcutta beggar or an Australian aborigine will not be condemned for his failure to embrace a doctrine or theology to which he was never exposed, but instead will be judged according to the light he did receive and the life he lived.

Those who made the most of the light and wisdom they were offered- those who were good and faithful servants (whether Mormon, Catholic, atheist, or Democrat), those who were obedient to the law they received, and those who were humble and penitent before God- will advance to the Celestial Kingdom.

Those who did not, will not.

You'll forgive me, but I was referring to the now, and I really think you knew that.

No, it's Christ's doctrine as per the LDS church. As you've said, if you're right, awesome, if you're wrong, no big deal.

This last part is sort of misleading isn't it? The beggar and the aborigine will in fact not be ushered into the Celestial Kingdom lest they are the subject of LDS baptism for the dead and they then choose to embrace LDS theology. Now, you know that, yet you don't say that. How come?

If I didn't know better I'd say you were being obtuse, but I know that such an approach to the non-LDS and their questions would never further the LDS cause.

[thesometimesaint]

Law22:

"This last part is sort of misleading isn't it? The beggar and the aborigine will in fact not be ushered into the Celestial Kingdom lest they are the subject of LDS baptism for the dead and they then choose to embrace LDS theology. Now, you know that, yet you don't say that. How come?"

Not misleading. The beggar, aborigine, prince, or paulper will in fact have to meet the exact same requirements as a member of the Church. Everyone who has ever or will ever be born on this world will need to have faith in our Lord and Savior Jesus the Christ, be baptized, recieve the Gift of the Holy Ghost, and Confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, whether in this life or the next, in order to enter the Celestial Kingdom. There is only one exception, those that die under the age of accountability.

God have made ample provison for all of his children. ALL will have the opportunitily to hear, fully understand, and accept or reject the Restored Gospel. No one will be denied any righteous blessing that they truly want.

Edited April 29, 2012 by thesometimesaint

[bluebell]

Huh? As per LDS doctrine, It has everything to do with what church a person is a member of.

No, it has everything to do with whether or not someone has covenanted with Christ and become His son or daughter.

For goodness sake, isn't that what baptism for the dead is all about? Giving a person one last chance to join the LDS church so they can get into the Celestial Kingdom, and if they choose not to join, the are forever banished from God's presence?

The purpose of baptism for the dead is to give every person a chance to covenant with Christ so they have access to His saving grace.

I totally understand and agree that you and other members of the LDS church do not mean to speak ill of other's religious beliefs, but by adopting a doctrine that completely precludes non-LDS from ever meeting God or living with Christ sort of has that effect now doesn't it?

Do you, having adopted a doctrine (Christianity) which precludes Jewish people from ever meeting God or living with Christ, believe that your religion has the 'effect' of speaking ill of judaism?

[bluebell]

With all due respect, wouldn't it be fair to say that the scripture has been amended to say: "He that believeth and is baptized by a member in good standing of the LDS church who has the authority to do so shall be saved." ?

Doesn't it go without saying that baptism by someone who has no authority to speak in the name of Christ is just someone with good intentions getting wet?

Even Christ, when He specifically went to John the Baptist to be baptized showed the importance of authority when performing acts (or ordiances) in God's name.

So, does the scripture really need to be amended to say "He that believeth and is baptized" by someone with the authority to do so, or should that last part just be obvious?

Christians can certainly disagree about how the authority is recieved or who has it, but no Christian should need to be told that authority is necessary.

Btw, why are you (and others here) shy about coming out and simply saying that only LDS will get into the Celestial Kingdom and live with God and Christ for all eternity? Its ok. Really.

Because we don't believe that.

This is a quote by Stephen Robinson. It appeared in the church's magazine-the Ensign. It was in an article discussing why non-LDS are not automatically going to hell or not saved just because they aren't LDS.

"Individual orientation to the Church of the Lamb or to the great and abominable church is not by membership but by loyalty. Just as there Latter-day Saints who belong to the great and abominable church because of their loyalty to Satan and his life-style, so there are members of other churches who belong to the Lamb because of their loyalty to him and his life-style. Membership is based more on who has your heart than on who has your records."

The term "Church of the Lamb" is simple a reference to those who belong to Christ. It is a term used in scripture.

Edited April 29, 2012 by bluebell

[zerinus]

So would a more accurate statement be that only LDS, and those who have died and then been baptized by LDS, and choose to accept LDS doctrine, will get into the Celestial Kingdom?

No, that would not be a more accurate statement; it would be a less accurate statement. The more accurate statement would be to say that only those who are baptized by one having authority will be saved. The reason for this is that most churches today do not know, recognize, or acknowledge that divine authority is a requirement for valid baptisms to be performed.

To the extent this has not been made clear, I am referring to what will happen to people today, not what might have happened to people prior to any apostasy.

So am I. But to keep the subject in perspective, the Apostasy needs to be mentioned. If there had not been an Apostasy, the question you are asking would not have arisen.

Btw, thank you for being civil and not calling me names.

You are very welcome.

[altersteve]

So would a more accurate statement be that only LDS, and those who have died and then been baptized by LDS, and choose to accept LDS doctrine, will get into the Celestial Kingdom? To the extent this has not been made clear, I am referring to what will happen to people today, not what might have happened to people prior to any apostasy.

No. It is more accurate to say that those who have faith in Jesus Christ, repent of their sins, are baptized by proper authority, receive the gift of the Holy Ghost by proper authority, and endure to the end will be saved and will live with their Heavenly Father and their Savior in the celestial kingdom. At the end of day, being "LDS" has nothing to do with it. As you can see, the first (and most important) thing listed is faith in Jesus Christ, and non-LDS people can and do have faith in Jesus Christ; they can and do repent and can be and are forgiven of their sins too.

There are members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who will not be saved, but these individuals are not members of the Church of Jesus Christ. They may be members of the earthly institution which acts under the authority of God as the "vehicle" through which the priesthood and temple ordinances are offered, but the larger Church of Jesus Christ (the Church of the Lamb spoken of by Nephi) is much greater, and is made up of every person who has accepted Jesus Christ as his or her Savior and Redeemer, including all the faithful Catholics, evangelicals, and other Christians who strive to serve Him in the best or only way they know how. Even good people of other, non-Christian faiths (and even good nonreligious people) will be given the chance to accept Jesus Christ's gracious offer of salvation, whether in this life or in the post-mortal spirit world. All of these people will be saved, as they are all members of the Church of the Lamb -- and they are guaranteed salvation as long as they continue to endure faithfully. They will also be given the opportunity to have eternal life with their Heavenly Father, their Savior, and their families in the celestial kingdom, though this is only possible through the ordinances offered by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, since it is the only organization with the authority to do so. But this does NOT mean that baptism for the dead, for example, is "LDS baptism," nor will it be recognized as such. It will be recognized as baptism that is done by the power of God.

The work and the glory of God is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of all His children, not just His LDS children. The happiness of all His sons and daughters is His greatest desire. He therefore works through all religions to bring to pass the happiness of all His children, and He raises up prophets, teachers, and other inspired leaders throughout the world, both inside and outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints -- but always within the Church of the Lamb. The day will come when the entire Church of the Lamb will have the priesthood authority to act in God's name, even though that authority is only given to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for the time being... but at the end of the day, "being LDS" won't really mean anything, because you'll either be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ or you won't. There won't be a middle ground.

Now please stop telling us what we believe. You're approaching this from a very black and white perspective that we simply don't see things from.

Edited April 29, 2012 by altersteve

[selek1]

This last part is sort of misleading isn't it? The beggar and the aborigine will in fact not be ushered into the Celestial Kingdom lest they are the subject of LDS baptism for the dead and they then choose to embrace LDS theology. Now, you know that, yet you don't say that. How come?

Asked and answered (repeatedly).

We don't say it because it's not true.

The baptism and theology which they must accept are not "LDS"- but are, instead, eternal.

If I didn't know better I'd say you were being obtuse, but I know that such an approach to the non-LDS and their questions would never further the LDS cause.

On the contrary, it is you who is being obtuse in insisting upon characterizing things as "LDS" which are not, as explained above.