Church Offers Resources Re: Faith Crisis Issues

[smac97]

SL Tribune:

Quote

LDS leaders sin and policies change — and that’s OK, church says in new guides

Online resources are designed to help Latter-day Saints get answers on touchy topics such as polygamy, race, Heavenly Mother, Book of Mormon translation and more.

Cool.

Quote

The term “faith crisis” doesn’t show up anywhere in two brand-new resources on the official website of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. But that appears to be precisely what the guides hope to address.

Nestled under “Topics and Questions,” the material consists of two guides — one for those seeking answers and one to help others with their questions. The advice found within mixes the practical (“Examine your source’s motives and background”) with the abstract (“Be a Christlike example”). And while some suggestions deal explicitly with testimony and questions of faith (“Trust that God is aware”), others are more widely applicable (“Corroborate what you learn”).

Here are the topics in the "Seeking Answers to Questions" resource:

Quote

Introduction

Center Your Life on Jesus Christ

Be Patient with Yourself and with Others

Recognize That Revelation Is a Process

Consult Reliable Sources

Work to Understand the Past

There is some really good counsel in these materials.  A sampling:

• "Center Your Life on Jesus Christ" is really important.  We ought not live by, and - when needed - defend the Restored Gospel out of a sense of mere tribalism or conforming to familial/social expectations, but rather because "{f}aith in Jesus Christ is vital to our pursuit of answers to life’s most challenging questions."
• "We often think of faith as a strong belief. But faith is more than belief. It involves trust, confidence, and loyalty. When we have challenging questions or concerns, we can always turn to Jesus Christ."  "{T}rust, confidence and loyalty."  Yep.  
• "Jesus Christ is the sure foundation for our faith. In our daily lives, we place our faith in many people and institutions. These include family members, friends, governments, and employers. But Jesus Christ is the only person we can fully trust with our hope for peace and salvation."  The mistakes and flaws of Latter-day Saints and their leaders are sometimes given too much weight in deliberating the divinity of the Restored Gospel.  
• "God’s plan of salvation provides perspective. Many of our questions look different when we keep Heavenly Father’s plan in view. 'Because of our knowledge of this plan,' taught President Dallin H. Oaks, 'we start with different assumptions than those who do not share our knowledge. As a result, we reach different conclusions on many important subjects.'  Examining our questions with the plan of salvation in view can help us see our concerns with an eternal perspective."  I have discovered this in greater measures as I get older.  The presuppositions we bring to the table often end up heavily influencing the conclusions we take away.
• "There are primary and secondary questions. Sometimes we have questions or concerns related to historical events, Church teachings and policies, or human failures. Finding peace with such questions deserves our honest effort. But it’s important to distinguish core gospel truths from things that aren’t as essential.  Joseph Smith taught that 'all other things are only appendages' to the truths surrounding the Savior’s saving mission."  This is an important one for me.  I think too many of us are focusing on tangential "secondary" questions and then "working back" from them to reach conclusions of doubt and a loss of faith.  
• The entire "Be Patient with Yourself and with Others" section is worth a read, and several others beyond it.  It summarizes how we need to be "patient with yourself," "with Church members," "with those who want to help," "with Church leaders," and "with the Lord's timing."
• The "Recognize That Revelation is a Process" section is excellent.  "Remember that revelation usually starts with questions." "Recognize that revelation comes line upon line." "Remember that God speaks to us according to our understanding." "Be faithful and believe."  "Remember that all good comes from God." "Know that obtaining revelation can be a struggle." "Continue to seek revelation."
• I am very happy with the "Consult Reliable Sources" section.  "Evaluate the reliability of sources." "Learn to recognize bias."  "Corroborate what you learn." "Distinguish facts from interpretation." "Become familiar with Church resources."  "Seek the guidance of the Holy Ghost."
• The "Work to Understand the Past" section is great.  "Recognize the limits of our knowledge." "Expect change." "Place things in context." "Remember that humans make mistakes." "Watch for suspect interpretations."

Here are the topics in the "Helping Others with Questions" resource: 

Quote

Introduction

Respond with Love

Listen with Humility

Trust in the Lord

Nourish Your Own Faith

Assist Them throughout Their Journey

Again, some really useful stuff here.  Some excerpts:

• "When someone close to you shares their questions or concerns about the Church, it’s normal to feel anxious or worried. Try to set aside these emotions and respond with kindness and compassion. You may not fully understand the other person’s experience, but you can follow Jesus Christ’s example and always show love."
• "Sometimes people hesitate to share their struggles because they fear they might lose their relationships with those who are close to them. If someone reaches out to you, they’re looking for support. Respond with love, even if you don’t know what to do or say. Look for ways to show compassion and kindness, even when they make choices you do not agree with."
• "Preserve your relationship. It is more important to cultivate a relationship of love and trust than to provide quick answers. A good goal may be just to keep the conversation going. Maintaining your relationship while keeping your covenants is the best way to continue having a positive influence."
• "Love them without compromise. When someone we love decides to believe differently than we do or makes decisions we don’t understand, we should respect their agency and continue to love them. We can do this without abandoning our own deeply held beliefs. President M. Russell Ballard taught: 'We can love one another without compromising personal divine ideals. And we can speak of those ideals without marginalizing others.'"
• "Seek first to understand. We often think we know how to resolve others’ concerns. We want to just answer their questions and tell them to stop worrying. This impulse is often centered on us rather than on their needs. Spend time listening to the story of how they arrived where they are today."
• "Acknowledge their experience. Even though we may not understand or agree with another’s concerns, we can acknowledge their sincerity and the pain they might be feeling. In an effort to show empathy, we sometimes draw comparisons between their experiences and our own. It’s important to remember that everyone’s experience is different."
• "Avoid being dismissive or judgmental. By the time a friend or loved one has decided to talk to you about their questions, they have most likely spent time privately researching and thinking. Be careful not to shut down the conversation by dismissing their questions or making judgments."
• "Keep your emotions in check. It’s normal to feel anxious or concerned when a loved one approaches you with questions about their faith. Try not to let these emotions get in the way of a productive conversation. If you feel angry, it’s probably better to ask if you can take a break and continue the conversation a little later."
• "Ask open-ended questions. Open-ended questions encourage others to share their thoughts, feelings, and experiences. They don’t necessarily have a right or wrong answer. For example: 'Can you tell me more?' 'How do you feel about that?' 'Can you help me understand?' 'What can I do to help?' Asking good questions shows that you care and will help you avoid misunderstanding."
• "Continue cultivating your testimony. It’s important to keep doing the things that helped you build your testimony of the gospel. These could include reading the scriptures, praying, partaking of the sacrament, worshipping in the temple, and serving others."
• "Become better informed. You don’t need to be an expert on an issue to be a good supporter. But it can be very positive to learn about a topic you don’t have context for. Pursue a thoughtful study of the Church’s doctrine and history."
• "Be a safe source for discussion. When a friend or family member brings their questions to you, they probably aren’t looking for someone to fix a problem but rather a loved one who is willing to walk beside them on their journey."

Back to the article:

Quote

More than a mere collection of suggestions, these resources — which went live Dec. 13 and avoid offering answers for specific questions members might have — embody a seismic shift in the church’s approach to handling sticky conversations about its history, theology and policies, according to Latter-day Saints who have committed themselves to making space in the faith community for thorny questions.

Among them is author and scholar Terryl Givens, who described the effort as part of the global church’s ongoing work aimed at the “decriminalization of doubt.”

The guide directed at those grappling with concerns opens with a simple yet meaningful acknowledgment: There are episodes in the church’s past that “may raise difficult questions.”

Quoting apostle Dieter F. Uchtdorf, it explains that “some might feel embarrassed or unworthy because they have searching questions regarding the gospel, but they needn’t feel that way.” Rather, “Asking questions isn’t a sign of weakness; it’s a precursor of growth.”

Further to the comment from Elder Uchtdorf, there are some "difficult questions" that may create anger, a sense of betrayal, etc.  We need to address these responses as well.

Quote

Times change. Cultures and languages evolve. Don’t be surprised, then, when even “core principles” are “understood and expressed” in new ways, the section titled “Work to Understand the Past” reads.

For Givens, this section constitutes “one of the most remarkable acknowledgments we’ve ever had on the official church site about the role of culture and language in shaping our understandings and in limiting our ability to hear God.”

It’s a recognition, he said, that Protestants and Catholics came to in the early 20th century in what Givens refers to as the “Crisis of Modernism,” a period in which Western Christianity grappled with academic research on topics ranging from the historicity of the Bible to the theory of evolution.

“Our crisis was delayed about a hundred years for all kinds of interesting reasons,” he explained, among them the “insularity of our culture and reliance upon prophets rather than scholars.”

So what has changed?

For one, “wildly optimistic” forecasts made decades ago regarding church growth have “fallen flat.” Meanwhile, Givens said, more and more Latter-day Saints have seen loved ones disappear from the pews due to disaffection. As a result, the church has been forced to grapple with “the fact that God’s language is going to shift, or our understanding of his voice is going to shift with time and culture and context.”

Good stuff.  We need to be clear-eyed about what is going on today.

Quote

Tied to this realization is the recognition that church leaders make errors.

Uchtdorf conceded as much in a 2013 General Conference sermon. “To be perfectly frank,” he said, “there have been times when members or leaders in the church have simply made mistakes. There may have been things said or done that were not in harmony with our values, principles, or doctrine.”

The new online resource builds upon that theme: “When we tell stories from church history, we tend to focus on heroic actions and happy endings,” it states. “It is good to remember people when they were at their best. But we sometimes forget that Latter-day Saints of the past, including early church leaders, were human beings. Human beings have weaknesses. They make mistakes. They sin.”

This has long seemed axiomatic to me, but I guess it's not that way for everyone.

Quote

Givens likewise applauded this counsel, which he said reinforced a “landmark address” apostle M. Russell Ballard gave to Church Educational System instructors across the globe in 2016.

In it, Ballard, who died last month, informed teachers that they could no longer dismiss or sidestep difficult inquiries from students but instead were responsible for seeking out “the best answers,” whether about Heavenly Mother, race and the priesthood or polygamy.

“Gone are the days when a student asked an honest question and a teacher responded, ‘Don’t worry about it!,’” the apostle said. “Gone are the days when a student raised a sincere concern and a teacher bore his or her testimony as a response intended to avoid the issue.”

He urged seminary and institute instructors to study the church’s Gospel Topics essays, which tackle prickly subjects such as the Mountain Meadows Massacre, Book of Mormon translation and the former priesthood/temple ban on Black members.

“It is important that you know the content in these essays,” Ballard said, “like you know the back of your hand.”

That message, Givens said, “was a tidal shift.”

Yep.

Quote

Six years after Ballard’s exhortation, the church added a new institute class for young adults titled “Answering My Gospel Questions.” Like the new guides, the class is designed to help members learn how to find answers from reliable sources.

“This course is part of a larger effort to meet the needs of young adults in inviting and relevant ways,” Chad Webb, administrator of seminaries and institutes, said in a news release at the time. “It will allow them to faithfully address current questions and issues.”

Cool!  I did not know about this class.

Quote

As needed as the guides are, Jones worries that they fall short of providing those with difficult questions what they really want: answers.

“The church is clearly making this in response to concerns with history and policy, which are commonly cited reasons people step away from the church,” he said. “Yet this is still not a direct engagement of those concerns.”

For those wondering where their gay sibling fits into the plan of salvation or if polygamy exists in heaven, giving them “generic counsel about centering your life on Christ or ‘being patient with the Lord’s timing’” probably won’t, he said, resolve anything.

Fair enough.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

-Smac

[pogi]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

SL Tribune:

Cool.

Here are the topics in the "Seeking Answers to Questions" resource:

There is some really good counsel in these materials.  A sampling:

• "Center Your Life on Jesus Christ" is really important.  We ought not live by, and - when needed - defend the Restored Gospel out of a sense of mere tribalism or conforming to familial/social expectations, but rather because "{f}aith in Jesus Christ is vital to our pursuit of answers to life’s most challenging questions."
• "We often think of faith as a strong belief. But faith is more than belief. It involves trust, confidence, and loyalty. When we have challenging questions or concerns, we can always turn to Jesus Christ."  "{T}rust, confidence and loyalty."  Yep.  
• "Jesus Christ is the sure foundation for our faith. In our daily lives, we place our faith in many people and institutions. These include family members, friends, governments, and employers. But Jesus Christ is the only person we can fully trust with our hope for peace and salvation."  The mistakes and flaws of Latter-day Saints and their leaders are sometimes given too much weight in deliberating the divinity of the Restored Gospel.  
• "God’s plan of salvation provides perspective. Many of our questions look different when we keep Heavenly Father’s plan in view. 'Because of our knowledge of this plan,' taught President Dallin H. Oaks, 'we start with different assumptions than those who do not share our knowledge. As a result, we reach different conclusions on many important subjects.'  Examining our questions with the plan of salvation in view can help us see our concerns with an eternal perspective."  I have discovered this in greater measures as I get older.  The presuppositions we bring to the table often end up heavily influencing the conclusions we take away.
• "There are primary and secondary questions. Sometimes we have questions or concerns related to historical events, Church teachings and policies, or human failures. Finding peace with such questions deserves our honest effort. But it’s important to distinguish core gospel truths from things that aren’t as essential.  Joseph Smith taught that 'all other things are only appendages' to the truths surrounding the Savior’s saving mission."  This is an important one for me.  I think too many of us are focusing on tangential "secondary" questions and then "working back" from them to reach conclusions of doubt and a loss of faith.  
• The entire "Be Patient with Yourself and with Others" section is worth a read, and several others beyond it.  It summarizes how we need to be "patient with yourself," "with Church members," "with those who want to help," "with Church leaders," and "with the Lord's timing."
• The "Recognize That Revelation is a Process" section is excellent.  "Remember that revelation usually starts with questions." "Recognize that revelation comes line upon line." "Remember that God speaks to us according to our understanding." "Be faithful and believe."  "Remember that all good comes from God." "Know that obtaining revelation can be a struggle." "Continue to seek revelation."
• I am very happy with the "Consult Reliable Sources" section.  "Evaluate the reliability of sources." "Learn to recognize bias."  "Corroborate what you learn." "Distinguish facts from interpretation." "Become familiar with Church resources."  "Seek the guidance of the Holy Ghost."
• The "Work to Understand the Past" section is great.  "Recognize the limits of our knowledge." "Expect change." "Place things in context." "Remember that humans make mistakes." "Watch for suspect interpretations."

Here are the topics in the "Helping Others with Questions" resource: 

Again, some really useful stuff here.  Some excerpts:

• "When someone close to you shares their questions or concerns about the Church, it’s normal to feel anxious or worried. Try to set aside these emotions and respond with kindness and compassion. You may not fully understand the other person’s experience, but you can follow Jesus Christ’s example and always show love."
• "Sometimes people hesitate to share their struggles because they fear they might lose their relationships with those who are close to them. If someone reaches out to you, they’re looking for support. Respond with love, even if you don’t know what to do or say. Look for ways to show compassion and kindness, even when they make choices you do not agree with."
• "Preserve your relationship. It is more important to cultivate a relationship of love and trust than to provide quick answers. A good goal may be just to keep the conversation going. Maintaining your relationship while keeping your covenants is the best way to continue having a positive influence."
• "Love them without compromise. When someone we love decides to believe differently than we do or makes decisions we don’t understand, we should respect their agency and continue to love them. We can do this without abandoning our own deeply held beliefs. President M. Russell Ballard taught: 'We can love one another without compromising personal divine ideals. And we can speak of those ideals without marginalizing others.'"
• "Seek first to understand. We often think we know how to resolve others’ concerns. We want to just answer their questions and tell them to stop worrying. This impulse is often centered on us rather than on their needs. Spend time listening to the story of how they arrived where they are today."
• "Acknowledge their experience. Even though we may not understand or agree with another’s concerns, we can acknowledge their sincerity and the pain they might be feeling. In an effort to show empathy, we sometimes draw comparisons between their experiences and our own. It’s important to remember that everyone’s experience is different."
• "Avoid being dismissive or judgmental. By the time a friend or loved one has decided to talk to you about their questions, they have most likely spent time privately researching and thinking. Be careful not to shut down the conversation by dismissing their questions or making judgments."
• "Keep your emotions in check. It’s normal to feel anxious or concerned when a loved one approaches you with questions about their faith. Try not to let these emotions get in the way of a productive conversation. If you feel angry, it’s probably better to ask if you can take a break and continue the conversation a little later."
• "Ask open-ended questions. Open-ended questions encourage others to share their thoughts, feelings, and experiences. They don’t necessarily have a right or wrong answer. For example: 'Can you tell me more?' 'How do you feel about that?' 'Can you help me understand?' 'What can I do to help?' Asking good questions shows that you care and will help you avoid misunderstanding."
• "Continue cultivating your testimony. It’s important to keep doing the things that helped you build your testimony of the gospel. These could include reading the scriptures, praying, partaking of the sacrament, worshipping in the temple, and serving others."
• "Become better informed. You don’t need to be an expert on an issue to be a good supporter. But it can be very positive to learn about a topic you don’t have context for. Pursue a thoughtful study of the Church’s doctrine and history."
• "Be a safe source for discussion. When a friend or family member brings their questions to you, they probably aren’t looking for someone to fix a problem but rather a loved one who is willing to walk beside them on their journey."

Back to the article:

Further to the comment from Elder Uchtdorf, there are some "difficult questions" that may create anger, a sense of betrayal, etc.  We need to address these responses as well.

Good stuff.  We need to be clear-eyed about what is going on today.

This has long seemed axiomatic to me, but I guess it's not that way for everyone.

Yep.

Cool!  I did not know about this class.

Fair enough.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

-Smac

I am happy to see some further efforts on this front.   Especially happy to see a lot of this push to love and not judge those who are questioning or struggling - to be a "safe source for discussion":

Quote

 

Again, some really useful stuff here.  Some excerpts:

• "When someone close to you shares their questions or concerns about the Church, it’s normal to feel anxious or worried. Try to set aside these emotions and respond with kindness and compassion. You may not fully understand the other person’s experience, but you can follow Jesus Christ’s example and always show love."
• "Sometimes people hesitate to share their struggles because they fear they might lose their relationships with those who are close to them. If someone reaches out to you, they’re looking for support. Respond with love, even if you don’t know what to do or say. Look for ways to show compassion and kindness, even when they make choices you do not agree with."
• "Preserve your relationship. It is more important to cultivate a relationship of love and trust than to provide quick answers. A good goal may be just to keep the conversation going. Maintaining your relationship while keeping your covenants is the best way to continue having a positive influence."
• "Love them without compromise. When someone we love decides to believe differently than we do or makes decisions we don’t understand, we should respect their agency and continue to love them. We can do this without abandoning our own deeply held beliefs. President M. Russell Ballard taught: 'We can love one another without compromising personal divine ideals. And we can speak of those ideals without marginalizing others.'"
• "Seek first to understand. We often think we know how to resolve others’ concerns. We want to just answer their questions and tell them to stop worrying. This impulse is often centered on us rather than on their needs. Spend time listening to the story of how they arrived where they are today."
• "Acknowledge their experience. Even though we may not understand or agree with another’s concerns, we can acknowledge their sincerity and the pain they might be feeling. In an effort to show empathy, we sometimes draw comparisons between their experiences and our own. It’s important to remember that everyone’s experience is different."
• "Avoid being dismissive or judgmental. By the time a friend or loved one has decided to talk to you about their questions, they have most likely spent time privately researching and thinking. Be careful not to shut down the conversation by dismissing their questions or making judgments."
• "Keep your emotions in check. It’s normal to feel anxious or concerned when a loved one approaches you with questions about their faith. Try not to let these emotions get in the way of a productive conversation. If you feel angry, it’s probably better to ask if you can take a break and continue the conversation a little later."
• "Ask open-ended questions. Open-ended questions encourage others to share their thoughts, feelings, and experiences. They don’t necessarily have a right or wrong answer. For example: 'Can you tell me more?' 'How do you feel about that?' 'Can you help me understand?' 'What can I do to help?' Asking good questions shows that you care and will help you avoid misunderstanding."
• "Continue cultivating your testimony. It’s important to keep doing the things that helped you build your testimony of the gospel. These could include reading the scriptures, praying, partaking of the sacrament, worshipping in the temple, and serving others."
• "Become better informed. You don’t need to be an expert on an issue to be a good supporter. But it can be very positive to learn about a topic you don’t have context for. Pursue a thoughtful study of the Church’s doctrine and history."
• "Be a safe source for discussion. When a friend or family member brings their questions to you, they probably aren’t looking for someone to fix a problem but rather a loved one who is willing to walk beside them on their journey."

 

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

"Jesus Christ is the sure foundation for our faith. In our daily lives, we place our faith in many people and institutions. These include family members, friends, governments, and employers. But Jesus Christ is the only person we can fully trust with our hope for peace and salvation."  The mistakes and flaws of Latter-day Saints and their leaders are sometimes given too much weight in deliberating the divinity of the Restored Gospel.  

I thought this comment was really interesting.  It seems to be emphasizing the importance of placing faith in Christ, not the church ("institutions") or its leaders ("people"). That is a sentiment that I 100% fully agree with.  I wish it was a little more explicit with the church and its leaders mentioned in the list of examples, but I'll take it. 

In regards to seeking out reliable sources, President Nelsons last conference talk comes to mind:

Quote

There is no end to the adversary's deceptions.  Please be prepared.  Never take counsel from those who do not believe.

I found that deeply troubling.  Do these resources advocate for that same stance, or do they go against the prophet's counsel suggesting that there can be reliable sources of counsel from outside of our faith? 

Edit:  I re-read the statement above that I was questioning and misread it.  This was the statement:

Quote

The mistakes and flaws of Latter-day Saints and their leaders are sometimes given too much weight in deliberating the divinity of the Restored Gospel. 

It is not saying what I thought at all.  Disregard that section of my post and carry on.  In fact, I will just delete that section. 

Edited January 2, 2024 by pogi

[MrShorty]

39 minutes ago, pogi said:

 Especially happy to see a lot of this push to love and not judge those who are questioning or struggling - to be a "safe source for discussion":

I noted in another thread that drew attention to this release that my biggest concern with this is an implication (that maybe only I am seeing) that anyone who leaves the church after a faith crisis must not have followed all these steps correctly. They didn't adequately "center their lives on Christ," or they "consulted unreliable sources," or whatever.

When I told my bishop about my faith crisis, I told him that one of the most troubling dynamics I see is among the hardcore conservative/orthodox members who talk about how they wish that progressives and similar would hurry up and get their tare-like souls out of the church. I, too, am pleased to see an official push towards loving and not judging the doubters among us.

IMO, one thing more I think we might need in a place like this is an explicit acceptance of "cafeteria Mormons" (who have often been maligned in the past). How does a high demand church like ours feel about "(generic) Christians who happen to worship with Latter-day Saints?" How do we feel about those (like Carol Lynn Pearson) who accept Joseph Smith as a prophet, but reject something (like polygamy) that he claimed came from God? How do we feel about those who are not just doubting, but have rejected some of the church's teachings?

[bluebell]

10 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

How do we feel about those (like Carol Lynn Pearson) who accept Joseph Smith as a prophet, but reject something (like polygamy) that he claimed came from God? How do we feel about those who are not just doubting, but have rejected some of the church's teachings?

As long as they aren't advocating their personal beliefs that reject doctrines or teachings of the church, I think they should be be an accepted part of the community like any other member.

[smac97]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

Quote

"Jesus Christ is the sure foundation for our faith. In our daily lives, we place our faith in many people and institutions. These include family members, friends, governments, and employers. But Jesus Christ is the only person we can fully trust with our hope for peace and salvation."  The mistakes and flaws of Latter-day Saints and their leaders are sometimes given too much weight in deliberating the divinity of the Restored Gospel.  

I thought this comment was really interesting.  It seems to be emphasizing the importance of placing faith in Christ, not the church ("institutions") or its leaders ("people"). That is a sentiment that I 100% fully agree with.  I wish it was a little more explicit with the church and its leaders mentioned in the list of examples, but I'll take it. 

In regards to seeking out reliable sources, President Nelsons last conference talk comes to mind:

Quote

There is no end to the adversary's deceptions.  Please be prepared.  Never take counsel from those who do not believe.

I found that deeply troubling.  Do these resources advocate for that same stance, or do they go against the prophet's counsel suggesting that there can be reliable sources of counsel from outside of our faith? 

Edit:  I re-read the statement above that I was questioning and misread it.  This was the statement:\

Quote

The mistakes and flaws of Latter-day Saints and their leaders are sometimes given too much weight in deliberating the divinity of the Restored Gospel.  

It is not saying what I thought at all.  Disregard that section of my post and carry on.  In fact, I will just delete that section. 

By way of clarification, the bolded "The mistakes and flaws..." statement above is not from the Church's website, but is instead an outside-of-the-quotation-marks comment from me.  I apologize for any confusion.

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

I found that deeply troubling.  Do these resources advocate for that same stance, or do they go against the prophet's counsel suggesting that there can be reliable sources of counsel from outside of our faith? 

I think these new resources provide guidance on identifying and "vetting" such "sources of counsel from outside of our faith."

Thanks,

-Smac

[CV75]

3 hours ago, smac97 said:

SL Tribune:

Cool.

Here are the topics in the "Seeking Answers to Questions" resource:

There is some really good counsel in these materials.  A sampling:

• "Center Your Life on Jesus Christ" is really important.  We ought not live by, and - when needed - defend the Restored Gospel out of a sense of mere tribalism or conforming to familial/social expectations, but rather because "{f}aith in Jesus Christ is vital to our pursuit of answers to life’s most challenging questions."
• "We often think of faith as a strong belief. But faith is more than belief. It involves trust, confidence, and loyalty. When we have challenging questions or concerns, we can always turn to Jesus Christ."  "{T}rust, confidence and loyalty."  Yep.  
• "Jesus Christ is the sure foundation for our faith. In our daily lives, we place our faith in many people and institutions. These include family members, friends, governments, and employers. But Jesus Christ is the only person we can fully trust with our hope for peace and salvation."  The mistakes and flaws of Latter-day Saints and their leaders are sometimes given too much weight in deliberating the divinity of the Restored Gospel.  
• "God’s plan of salvation provides perspective. Many of our questions look different when we keep Heavenly Father’s plan in view. 'Because of our knowledge of this plan,' taught President Dallin H. Oaks, 'we start with different assumptions than those who do not share our knowledge. As a result, we reach different conclusions on many important subjects.'  Examining our questions with the plan of salvation in view can help us see our concerns with an eternal perspective."  I have discovered this in greater measures as I get older.  The presuppositions we bring to the table often end up heavily influencing the conclusions we take away.
• "There are primary and secondary questions. Sometimes we have questions or concerns related to historical events, Church teachings and policies, or human failures. Finding peace with such questions deserves our honest effort. But it’s important to distinguish core gospel truths from things that aren’t as essential.  Joseph Smith taught that 'all other things are only appendages' to the truths surrounding the Savior’s saving mission."  This is an important one for me.  I think too many of us are focusing on tangential "secondary" questions and then "working back" from them to reach conclusions of doubt and a loss of faith.  
• The entire "Be Patient with Yourself and with Others" section is worth a read, and several others beyond it.  It summarizes how we need to be "patient with yourself," "with Church members," "with those who want to help," "with Church leaders," and "with the Lord's timing."
• The "Recognize That Revelation is a Process" section is excellent.  "Remember that revelation usually starts with questions." "Recognize that revelation comes line upon line." "Remember that God speaks to us according to our understanding." "Be faithful and believe."  "Remember that all good comes from God." "Know that obtaining revelation can be a struggle." "Continue to seek revelation."
• I am very happy with the "Consult Reliable Sources" section.  "Evaluate the reliability of sources." "Learn to recognize bias."  "Corroborate what you learn." "Distinguish facts from interpretation." "Become familiar with Church resources."  "Seek the guidance of the Holy Ghost."
• The "Work to Understand the Past" section is great.  "Recognize the limits of our knowledge." "Expect change." "Place things in context." "Remember that humans make mistakes." "Watch for suspect interpretations."

Here are the topics in the "Helping Others with Questions" resource: 

Again, some really useful stuff here.  Some excerpts:

• "When someone close to you shares their questions or concerns about the Church, it’s normal to feel anxious or worried. Try to set aside these emotions and respond with kindness and compassion. You may not fully understand the other person’s experience, but you can follow Jesus Christ’s example and always show love."
• "Sometimes people hesitate to share their struggles because they fear they might lose their relationships with those who are close to them. If someone reaches out to you, they’re looking for support. Respond with love, even if you don’t know what to do or say. Look for ways to show compassion and kindness, even when they make choices you do not agree with."
• "Preserve your relationship. It is more important to cultivate a relationship of love and trust than to provide quick answers. A good goal may be just to keep the conversation going. Maintaining your relationship while keeping your covenants is the best way to continue having a positive influence."
• "Love them without compromise. When someone we love decides to believe differently than we do or makes decisions we don’t understand, we should respect their agency and continue to love them. We can do this without abandoning our own deeply held beliefs. President M. Russell Ballard taught: 'We can love one another without compromising personal divine ideals. And we can speak of those ideals without marginalizing others.'"
• "Seek first to understand. We often think we know how to resolve others’ concerns. We want to just answer their questions and tell them to stop worrying. This impulse is often centered on us rather than on their needs. Spend time listening to the story of how they arrived where they are today."
• "Acknowledge their experience. Even though we may not understand or agree with another’s concerns, we can acknowledge their sincerity and the pain they might be feeling. In an effort to show empathy, we sometimes draw comparisons between their experiences and our own. It’s important to remember that everyone’s experience is different."
• "Avoid being dismissive or judgmental. By the time a friend or loved one has decided to talk to you about their questions, they have most likely spent time privately researching and thinking. Be careful not to shut down the conversation by dismissing their questions or making judgments."
• "Keep your emotions in check. It’s normal to feel anxious or concerned when a loved one approaches you with questions about their faith. Try not to let these emotions get in the way of a productive conversation. If you feel angry, it’s probably better to ask if you can take a break and continue the conversation a little later."
• "Ask open-ended questions. Open-ended questions encourage others to share their thoughts, feelings, and experiences. They don’t necessarily have a right or wrong answer. For example: 'Can you tell me more?' 'How do you feel about that?' 'Can you help me understand?' 'What can I do to help?' Asking good questions shows that you care and will help you avoid misunderstanding."
• "Continue cultivating your testimony. It’s important to keep doing the things that helped you build your testimony of the gospel. These could include reading the scriptures, praying, partaking of the sacrament, worshipping in the temple, and serving others."
• "Become better informed. You don’t need to be an expert on an issue to be a good supporter. But it can be very positive to learn about a topic you don’t have context for. Pursue a thoughtful study of the Church’s doctrine and history."
• "Be a safe source for discussion. When a friend or family member brings their questions to you, they probably aren’t looking for someone to fix a problem but rather a loved one who is willing to walk beside them on their journey."

Back to the article:

Further to the comment from Elder Uchtdorf, there are some "difficult questions" that may create anger, a sense of betrayal, etc.  We need to address these responses as well.

Good stuff.  We need to be clear-eyed about what is going on today.

This has long seemed axiomatic to me, but I guess it's not that way for everyone.

Yep.

Cool!  I did not know about this class.

Fair enough.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

-Smac

Who is "Jones" in the article (why was he interviewed and quoted)? I can't get through the paywall without paying  

[smac97]

2 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Who is "Jones" in the article (why was he interviewed and quoted)? I can't get through the paywall without paying  

From the article:

Quote

(Photo courtesy of James C. Jones) James Jones says new online guides reassure Latter-day Saints that it's OK to have doubts and questions about their faith.

...

For Latter-day Saint theologian and anti-racism activist James Jones, this reassurance from an official church publication that “it’s OK if you have uncertainties” is by itself “significant.”

He stressed that for many members, raising difficult questions is “socially costly,” a fact that leads them to keep their arms firmly at their sides during Sunday school.

In contrast, the guides frame earnest inquiry, even on taboo topics, as positive, explaining that “revelation usually starts with a question.”

Thanks,

-Smac

[filovirus]

Honestly, this is a much-needed advance for the CoJCoLDS. I am guessing that many members don't know where to go when a loved one comes to them with serious questions about the church. And before this, there wasn't a lot of guidance. The fact that it will be easy to find, and addresses several concerns that have popped up with the advent of the internet, will make this invaluable.

After 10+ years of not addressing the questions, I am seeing the church going from a purely defense mode to actively promoting an offensive strategy. All the podcasts that follow along with the "Come Follow Me" lessons are starting to tackle the hard questions as they come up. Within the last 3 years pro-faith YouTube channels are emerging to fight back. Websites with a little more nuance than FAIR are gaining more and more popularity, such as mormonr.

I like that the church is more open. No more arguments that the Church is trying to hide things. And to top it all off stating that faith in Jesus Christ and His gospel as outlined in scripture comes forefront to all these secondary questions is how it should be.

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, filovirus said:

Websites with a little more nuance than FAIR

Hey, we got plenty of nuance!  

[filovirus]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

Hey, we got plenty of nuance!  

Not putting it down. I go to FAIR to find facts that are layed out very well. And the depth of what FAIR has to offer is immense. I find that Mormonr takes a more middle-ground approach that leans apologetic.

[Calm]

15 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Who is "Jones" in the article (why was he interviewed and quoted)? I can't get through the paywall without paying  

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2022/01/17/black-latter-day-saint/
 

Quote

In a 2020 address, President Russell M. Nelson asked the faithful in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to “lead out” in combating racism, and, though clearly a daunting task, lifelong member James C. Jones was eager to join the effort.

To the Black Latter-day Saint, who is studying at Union Theological Seminary in New York City, it was exactly what Jesus asks of all believers. As the Bible and several prominent preachers — including the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. — repeatedly attest, racism is a sin.

In February, Jones gave an impassioned speech at the Black LDS Legacy Conference about battling discrimination in Mormonism. Several top leaders at Deseret Book, the church’s official publishing company, heard it and were so moved they asked Jones to put together a video course on “Abandoning Attitudes and Actions of Prejudice.”

He was open to the possibility — but wary. Would the editors sanitize his rhetoric or would he be able to say what he wanted, in the way that he wanted?

Jones was pleasantly surprised by their willingness to give him full control. So he dove in.

After two months of strenuous preparation, Jones had put together five 10-minute lectures and a five-minute introduction. They included multiple stories, scriptures, quotes from Latter-day Saint general authorities, and practical suggestions. The how-to videos were deep and well-sourced, with a religious tone and a powerful message.

Deseret Book’s team videotaped Jones in April, postproduction was completed during the summer, and the course, which was about an hour altogether, was slated to air online in October as part of the publisher’s MasterClass “Seek”series.

According to the article, the plug was pulled on the course after Jones publicly criticized Elder Holland for his BYU speech criticizing the valedictorian. 
 

Quote

Because of the Facebook post about Holland, the church publishing house did, indeed, drop the course from its MasterClass series, but Day released the content to Jones, which allows him to be intentional about when and how he shares it.

It will be a “blessing,” she said, to those who hear it and to the whole church.

Deseret Book was “grateful to have the chance to work with you and I was happy to hear that your experience working with the team in developing the filmed course was positive,” Day wrote in an email to Jones. “I am saddened that the post-filming interactions were not handled better. I am sincerely sorry for that. You deserved a better experience with us.”

For him, the move was a “win/win” for both parties.

“I give credit to Deseret Book for surrendering the content. They were under no obligation to do that,” he said recently. “They modeled a wonderful example of repentance and restitution. I have no ill feelings.”

And now Jones has published the videos on his own platform — https://btbacademy.thinkific.com/courses/lds-anti-racism-101-abandoning-attitudes-and-actions-of-prejudice.

I am not sure about the “repentance and restitution” part, seems rather one sided while it comes across to me as errors on both sides were made, but good for DB for allowing the material to be published and good for Jones for contributing in this well needed area.

https://btbacademy.thinkific.com/courses/lds-anti-racism-101-abandoning-attitudes-and-actions-of-prejudice

However, I fear the cost of $80 and even the reduced $50 for those who can’t afford the full price is too high for most Saints to consider it.  The price is reasonable for the wards, imo, but with wards and individuals used to getting material for lessons free from the Church, I wonder how many will consider it.

[Calm]

29 minutes ago, filovirus said:

Not putting it down. I go to FAIR to find facts that are layed out very well. And the depth of what FAIR has to offer is immense. I find that Mormonr takes a more middle-ground approach that leans apologetic.

I was just teasing…I think I understood what you meant and agree with you if I do.   We (FAIR) mean to come across as fully faithful and believing because that is what we are.  We might even be a little overkill that way as many Saints distrust any mention of criticisms, even when it is meant to challenge those criticisms.  We hear this much, much less than we used to though.  I think in general Saints have become more aware of the effect antimormon materials (and I am using “antimormon” in a very limited sense of intent on destroying faith and engagement in the Church, not just any criticism) have on membership and are more open to actively addressing claims.

I think this by the Church will be more accessible….they can afford to make it pretty, after all.  

Edited January 2, 2024 by Calm

[pogi]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

I think these new resources provide guidance on identifying and "vetting" such "sources of counsel from outside of our faith."

Thanks,

-Smac

Good to hear.  I hope that people can overlook the prophet's over-statement here.  As is often the case in our church where following the prophet is so heavily emphasized, where there is conflicting information being presented, many may choose to follow the direct quote of the prophet in conference over other information from other sources.   I don't know how much attention/impact that quote has had or will have, but I hope it will be addressed to clear up any confusion. 

[CV75]

9 minutes ago, pogi said:

Good to hear.  I hope that people can overlook the prophet's over-statement here.  As is often the case in our church where following the prophet is so heavily emphasized, where there is conflicting information being presented, many may choose to follow the direct quote of the prophet in conference over other information from other sources.   I don't know how much attention/impact that quote has had or will have, but I hope it will be addressed to clear up any confusion. 

What is the specific quote at issue?

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, CV75 said:

What is the specific quote at issue?

Quote

There is no end to the adversary's deceptions.  Please be prepared.  Never take counsel from those who do not believe.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2023/10/51nelson?lang=eng

Edited January 3, 2024 by Calm

[Analytics]

5 hours ago, smac97 said:

Thoughts?

Since you asked...

What's interesting is that the cognitive dynamics of a faith crisis in Mormonism are pretty much identical to the cognitive dynamics in a faith crisis in any other religion. Likewise, the advice given to Mormons on how to overcome their faith crisis in Mormonism could apply pretty-much without any edits to somebody having a faith crisis in any other religion. What you won't find in any of these how-to-keep-believing-in-your-religion guides are scientific insights into cognitive biases and the psychological reasons that people believe in religions that generate faith crises in the first place.

[california boy]

5 hours ago, smac97 said:

Quote

 

As needed as the guides are, Jones worries that they fall short of providing those with difficult questions what they really want: answers.

“The church is clearly making this in response to concerns with history and policy, which are commonly cited reasons people step away from the church,” he said. “Yet this is still not a direct engagement of those concerns.”

For those wondering where their gay sibling fits into the plan of salvation or if polygamy exists in heaven, giving them “generic counsel about centering your life on Christ or ‘being patient with the Lord’s timing’” probably won’t, he said, resolve anything.

 

Fair enough.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

-Smac

I am not seeing any real answers to the questions you quoted.  I clicked on the link "gay siblings fits into the plan of salvation".  There was no answer to that question, just a SL Trib article about the compromise the Church made to get the religious protections it was seeking.  I also read the link on polygamy.  It too was a SL Trib article.  Neither one of these provided any kind of answer, nor were they authoritive statements by the Church.  

Can you maybe point to an actual answer from the Church to those questions?  Is this how most of the questions are dodged with no real answer to the questions?

 

 

Edited January 3, 2024 by california boy

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2023/10/51nelson?lang=eng

I think very few people view this with the opposing paradigms of a) only taking advice on any matter from Church leaders alone, and b) not taking any advice on any matter from anyone who doesn't believe in the Church. This might be part on what people focus on, some narrower and some broader. For example, some might focus exclusively on "Never take counsel from those who do not believe," and miss out on receiving and processing sound counsel because of one of these paradigms. 

Others may broaden it a bit and find some helpful context: "There is no end to the adversary's deceptions.  Please be prepared.  Never take counsel from those who do not believe."

And some even more so (bold to emphasize additional context): "There is no end to the adversary’s deceptions. Please be prepared. Never take counsel from those who do not believe. Seek guidance from voices you can trust—from prophets, seers, and revelators and from the whisperings of the Holy Ghost, who “will show unto you all things what ye should do.” Please do the spiritual work to increase your capacity to receive personal revelation."

And an even broader context:

"Many of the adversary’s most relentless temptations involve violations of moral purity. The power to create life is the one privilege of godhood that Heavenly Father allows His mortal children to exercise. Thus, God set clear guidelines for the use of this living, divine power. Physical intimacy is only for a man and a woman who are married to each other.

"Much of the world does not believe this, but public opinion is not the arbiter of truth. The Lord has declared that no unchaste person will attain the celestial kingdom. So when you make decisions regarding morality, please think celestial. And if you have been unchaste, I plead with you to repent. Come unto Christ and receive His promise of complete forgiveness as you fully repent of your sins.

"As you think celestial, you will view trials and opposition in a new light. When someone you love attacks truth, think celestial, and don’t question your testimony. The Apostle Paul prophesied that “in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.”

"There is no end to the adversary’s deceptions. Please be prepared. Never take counsel from those who do not believe. Seek guidance from voices you can trust—from prophets, seers, and revelators and from the whisperings of the Holy Ghost, who “will show unto you all things what ye should do.” Please do the spiritual work to increase your capacity to receive personal revelation."

This follows an earlier contextual tie-in: 

"The Lord has clearly taught that only men and women who are sealed as husband and wife in the temple, and who keep their covenants, will be together throughout the eternities. He said, “All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise … have an end when men are dead.”

"Thus, if we unwisely choose to live telestial laws now, we are choosing to be resurrected with a telestial body. We are choosing not to live with our families forever.

"So, my dear brothers and sisters, how and where and with whom do you want to live forever? You get to choose."

[CV75]

51 minutes ago, Analytics said:

Since you asked...

What's interesting is that the cognitive dynamics of a faith crisis in Mormonism are pretty much identical to the cognitive dynamics in a faith crisis in any other religion. Likewise, the advice given to Mormons on how to overcome their faith crisis in Mormonism could apply pretty-much without any edits to somebody having a faith crisis in any other religion. What you won't find in any of these how-to-keep-believing-in-your-religion guides are scientific insights into cognitive biases and the psychological reasons that people believe in religions that generate faith crises in the first place.

Yes, some faith crises are generated by psychological factors including bias. The Church has a self-reliance program that helps with those.

[Rain]

3 hours ago, MrShorty said:

I noted in another thread that drew attention to this release that my biggest concern with this is an implication (that maybe only I am seeing) that anyone who leaves the church after a faith crisis must not have followed all these steps correctly. They didn't adequately "center their lives on Christ," or they "consulted unreliable sources," or whatever.

It's a valid concern and one of mine as well.  If you feel you have the right answer then it's hard to be ok with the idea that someone else got a different answer doing the right stuff. If nothing else it's hard to believe that someone else spent enough time doing the right stuff.

The church doesn't allow for a different answer in many areas so if you are a faithful member who agrees with the church you either feel 1. The other person got it wrong or 2. The other person didn't get it right yet. Or 3. Feel that even with the basics (such as Christ being our Savior) we, as a church, may not really have enough understanding that allows for someone else to get a different answer. I don't think that most believing members will be able to be in position 3.

3 hours ago, MrShorty said:

When I told my bishop about my faith crisis, I told him that one of the most troubling dynamics I see is among the hardcore conservative/orthodox members who talk about how they wish that progressives and similar would hurry up and get their tare-like souls out of the church. I, too, am pleased to see an official push towards loving and not judging the doubters among us.

IMO, one thing more I think we might need in a place like this is an explicit acceptance of "cafeteria Mormons" (who have often been maligned in the past). How does a high demand church like ours feel about "(generic) Christians who happen to worship with Latter-day Saints?" How do we feel about those (like Carol Lynn Pearson) who accept Joseph Smith as a prophet, but reject something (like polygamy) that he claimed came from God? How do we feel about those who are not just doubting, but have rejected some of the church's teachings?

 

[MrShorty]

6 hours ago, bluebell said:

As long as they aren't advocating their personal beliefs that reject doctrines or teachings of the church, I think they should be be an accepted part of the community like any other member.

So, like children, dissenters should be "seen and not heard?"

Perhaps part of mentioning Sister Pearson is that she has published a book about the things she believes and doesn't believe. Are we really saying that people like her should not publish books about their faith and beliefs?

I understand the difficulty here of trying to maintain boundaries and not disrupting meetings and so on and so forth. I also see many in these faith crisis spaces who are troubled when they feel like they cannot share their views and struggles and beliefs because they might be taken as subversive.

At the end of the day, I don't know how best to navigate this space. I sometimes feel that this desire to squelch all public dissent is not the best way forward.

[pogi]

14 hours ago, CV75 said:

I think very few people view this with the opposing paradigms of a) only taking advice on any matter from Church leaders alone, and b) not taking any advice on any matter from anyone who doesn't believe in the Church. This might be part on what people focus on, some narrower and some broader. For example, some might focus exclusively on "Never take counsel from those who do not believe," and miss out on receiving and processing sound counsel because of one of these paradigms. 

Others may broaden it a bit and find some helpful context: "There is no end to the adversary's deceptions.  Please be prepared.  Never take counsel from those who do not believe."

And some even more so (bold to emphasize additional context): "There is no end to the adversary’s deceptions. Please be prepared. Never take counsel from those who do not believe. Seek guidance from voices you can trust—from prophets, seers, and revelators and from the whisperings of the Holy Ghost, who “will show unto you all things what ye should do.” Please do the spiritual work to increase your capacity to receive personal revelation."

And an even broader context:

"Many of the adversary’s most relentless temptations involve violations of moral purity. The power to create life is the one privilege of godhood that Heavenly Father allows His mortal children to exercise. Thus, God set clear guidelines for the use of this living, divine power. Physical intimacy is only for a man and a woman who are married to each other.

"Much of the world does not believe this, but public opinion is not the arbiter of truth. The Lord has declared that no unchaste person will attain the celestial kingdom. So when you make decisions regarding morality, please think celestial. And if you have been unchaste, I plead with you to repent. Come unto Christ and receive His promise of complete forgiveness as you fully repent of your sins.

"As you think celestial, you will view trials and opposition in a new light. When someone you love attacks truth, think celestial, and don’t question your testimony. The Apostle Paul prophesied that “in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.”

"There is no end to the adversary’s deceptions. Please be prepared. Never take counsel from those who do not believe. Seek guidance from voices you can trust—from prophets, seers, and revelators and from the whisperings of the Holy Ghost, who “will show unto you all things what ye should do.” Please do the spiritual work to increase your capacity to receive personal revelation."

This follows an earlier contextual tie-in: 

"The Lord has clearly taught that only men and women who are sealed as husband and wife in the temple, and who keep their covenants, will be together throughout the eternities. He said, “All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise … have an end when men are dead.”

"Thus, if we unwisely choose to live telestial laws now, we are choosing to be resurrected with a telestial body. We are choosing not to live with our families forever.

"So, my dear brothers and sisters, how and where and with whom do you want to live forever? You get to choose."

I have read the talk, I promise.  The context doesn't change the meaning for me, personally.   I am not alone.  I have been meeting with my dad to talk about my faith journey.  He has been incredibly supportive, thank goodness since it took a lot of courage to bring it up to one of the men I respect and look up to the most.  We were talking about how uncomfortable it can be for me at church, cringing at much of what is said and not feeling safe to talk freely and share different perspectives from the narrative that is being pushed by whomever is teaching that week.    He is the one who brought this quote to my attention and gave it as an example of how difficult subjects can successfully be addressed in church.  He said that it was discussed in his elder's quorum when a member of his ward, who is also in the high counsel, made the comment that this statement "doesn't sit well with him" and he asked for the perspectives of others.   The vocal majority unanimously agreed that it doesn't feel right and seems to go against what Joseph Smith taught about seeking truth from all sources both in and out of the church, on all topics.  Just like that, they were able to set it aside and move on.  There was no shaming, the difficulty and apparent contradiction was noted without generating contention.    It seems that whatever nuance you are trying to place on these apparently absolute words is being lost on the membership to some degree, not just me.   Luckily, my dad seems to be in a fairly open ward.    I long for that kind of openness in my ward.  Hopefully change is on the horizon with the directing things are going.  But heaven knows that institutional change of deeply engrained culture is no quick or easy task and may never happen - just like the "Mormon" thing. 

I don't care what the subject is, those who don't believe as we do in whatever subject it may be, may have lots to offer.   Closing down and rejecting any possibility of listening openly and being influenced by different perspectives, even on matters that we feel strongly about, is a very cult-like, honestly.   "Never take counsel from those who disbelieve."  I wish it would have said something more like this - "seek first to understand the counsel of others and seek for any commonalities and areas of agreement.  Be open to the possibility of finding light even in areas that may seem dark at first glance and be open to broadening your perspective in different areas when so compelled by the Spirit, but never feel obligated to just accept wholesale the counsel of other's that may misalign with your core values.   

 

Edited January 3, 2024 by pogi

[bluebell]

11 hours ago, MrShorty said:

So, like children, dissenters should be "seen and not heard?"

Perhaps part of mentioning Sister Pearson is that she has published a book about the things she believes and doesn't believe. Are we really saying that people like her should not publish books about their faith and beliefs?

I understand the difficulty here of trying to maintain boundaries and not disrupting meetings and so on and so forth. I also see many in these faith crisis spaces who are troubled when they feel like they cannot share their views and struggles and beliefs because they might be taken as subversive.

At the end of the day, I don't know how best to navigate this space. I sometimes feel that this desire to squelch all public dissent is not the best way forward.

No we aren't saying people shouldn't publish books.  I was talking about while in church; they can do whatever they want in their own time and with their own resources. 

But the church is an organization with a specific mission and specific goals and with a lot of resources invested in that mission.  People gather on Sundays or at other times to take part in that specific mission. Like any organization that exists to bring about specific purposes, all who attend meetings should respect those in attendance enough not to hijack them for their own purposes.

If someone is sharing their views and doubts at church because they hope to undermine the doctrines and authority of the church, then they are being subversive and should just own it and accept the antithetical nature of their goals verses the church's.  They either need to be quiet while attending or should move on.

If they aren't trying to undermine anything or to champion their beliefs over the doctrines of the church then I hope they do stay and speak up and we can all reason and be edified together.

 

[pogi]

2 minutes ago, bluebell said:

If they aren't trying to undermine anything or to champion their beliefs over the doctrines of the church then I hope they do stay and speak up and we can all reason and be edified together.

The difficulty is that even bringing up difficult issues to be reasoned about, it is often perceived as hijacking the meeting with alternative agendas and being subversive.   It is a delicate tight rope to walk with lots of risks.  It doesn't feel like a safe place to seek understanding and clarity in reasoning together.  It feels more like a place to sustain the narrative, period.