Conformation Order of Operations

[Stormin' Mormon]

39 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

The bishop oversees all confirmations, child of record and convert.  The mission president hold the keys, but the bishop now the person on the spot (so to speak) who sees that things are done right.

Well, then, that's just a confusing contradiction in the Handbook. (Or at the very least, a vagueness that bothers my neurotic desire to have everything fit neatly in well-defined boxes)

On the one hand:

Quote

The bishop holds the priesthood keys for confirming 8-year-old members of record in his ward. The mission president holds the keys for confirming converts (for a definition of a convert baptism, see 31.2.3.2).

But on the other hand:

Quote

The bishop oversees the performance of confirmations. Eight-year-old children are typically confirmed on the day they are baptized. Converts are typically confirmed in any sacrament meeting in the ward where they live, preferably on the Sunday after their baptism. However, the bishop can allow the confirmation to take place at the baptismal service as an exception.

If the Bishop doesn't hold the keys for confirming converts, what does it mean that he "oversees" them?  Why would the Mission President hold the keys if its the Bishop who has responsibility to see it performed correctly?  As far as I know, a MP can't delegate authority to the Bishop, because they are in separate "chains of command" (or whatever the concept is called in the Church).  

That may explain why the member of the High Council was present.  He doesn't live in the ward and doesn't have a personal connection to the family.  He may have been there as the Bishop's designee in over-seeing the ordinance.  

Edited December 19, 2023 by Stormin' Mormon

[CV75]

16 minutes ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

Well, then, that's just a confusing contradiction in the Handbook. (Or at the very least, a vagueness that bothers my neurotic desire to have everything fit neatly in well-defined boxes)

On the one hand:

But on the other hand:

If the Bishop doesn't hold the keys for confirming converts, what does it mean that he "oversees" them?  Why would the Mission President hold the keys if its the Bishop who has responsibility to see it performed correctly?  As far as I know, a MP can't delegate authority to the Bishop, because they are in separate "chains of command" (or whatever the concept is called in the Church).  

That may explain why the member of the High Council was present.  He doesn't live in the ward and doesn't have a personal connection to the family.  He may have been there as the Bishop's designee in over-seeing the ordinance.  

I think the distinction is that the Mission President has the keys to authorize the ordinance (of converts) to proceed, while the bishop has the keys to preside over the performance of so-authorized ordinances in his ward (of both children of record and converts).

Edited December 19, 2023 by CV75

[ksfisher]

1 hour ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

Well, then, that's just a confusing contradiction in the Handbook. (Or at the very least, a vagueness that bothers my neurotic desire to have everything fit neatly in well-defined boxes)

On the one hand:

But on the other hand:

If the Bishop doesn't hold the keys for confirming converts, what does it mean that he "oversees" them?  Why would the Mission President hold the keys if its the Bishop who has responsibility to see it performed correctly?  As far as I know, a MP can't delegate authority to the Bishop, because they are in separate "chains of command" (or whatever the concept is called in the Church).  

That may explain why the member of the High Council was present.  He doesn't live in the ward and doesn't have a personal connection to the family.  He may have been there as the Bishop's designee in over-seeing the ordinance.  

Other than this is how the First Presidency says it should be done I don't have an answer.

I don't see it as priesthood keys that are being delegated, just the responsibility in seeing that it is done and done correctly.  The decision as to whether or not the person is baptized and confirmed still lies with the mission president.

From a practical standpoint it makes sense.  The bishop is the guy who should have the experience to make sure things happen correctly on the local level.  Missionaries often times are unfamiliar with how things should be done and how to get things done. 

[JAHS]

54 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Other than this is how the First Presidency says it should be done I don't have an answer.

I don't see it as priesthood keys that are being delegated, just the responsibility in seeing that it is done and done correctly.  The decision as to whether or not the person is baptized and confirmed still lies with the mission president.

From a practical standpoint it makes sense.  The bishop is the guy who should have the experience to make sure things happen correctly on the local level.  Missionaries often times are unfamiliar with how things should be done and how to get things done. 

Don't know if they still do this but while on my mission we had a conference that was mostly dedicated for teaching us how to perform all the ordinances. We actually performed each ordinance on each other.

Edited December 19, 2023 by JAHS

[Stargazer]

4 hours ago, JAHS said:

Someone in our ward was confirming a new member but forgot to mention his priesthood authority. Later they met in the bishops office and did it again. There's nothing wrong with someone in the circle quietly prodding the person to remember the priesthood before closing the prayer. 

In  the case I mention, the branch president was on the stand and in a poor position to correct things at the opportune time.

[mfbukowski]

8 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I would say it probably doesn't matter since you don't need to be a member in order to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

I think there are ordinances where it makes a difference, like ordaining to an office before conferring priesthood.

Reference please.

[ksfisher]

13 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Reference please.

He may be referring to Joseph Smith, etc who were baptized before the church was organized.  But if you use Joseph Smith as precedent then you can also argue that someone can be ordained to the priesthood before being baptized.

[CV75]

5 hours ago, ksfisher said:

He may be referring to Joseph Smith, etc who were baptized before the church was organized.  But if you use Joseph Smith as precedent then you can also argue that someone can be ordained to the priesthood before being baptized.

Also, I think it depends on how "gift" and "Holy Ghost" are being used. Sometimes the gift of the Holy Ghost refers to spiritual gifts, which someone who is not a member of our Church can have. Or likewise, a witness, manifestation or blessing enjoyed by virtue of the power of the Holy Ghost are rightly considered "gifts" (but not the gift). His general availability in these things is a gift to the world. Sometimes "Holy Ghost" is used instead of "light of Christ," "Spirit of the Lord," "spirit," "the power of God," "ministering angel," positive emotions, etc., but why use it if these other terms are more descriptive and, in most cases, correct?

[JLHPROF]

6 hours ago, ksfisher said:

He may be referring to Joseph Smith, etc who were baptized before the church was organized.  But if you use Joseph Smith as precedent then you can also argue that someone can be ordained to the priesthood before being baptized.

They can.  The Church is an earthly organization.  The orders of the priesthood are not.  I don't recall reading about Moses, Abraham, Enoch etc being members of the Church.  Priesthood authority presides over and runs the Church.  The Church organization doesn't preside over priesthood.

It's President Nelson's priesthood authority and keys that run the Church, not his title as Church President.  Brigham Young had it right:

“I do not care who leads the Church, even though it were Ann Lee, but one thing I must know, and that is what God says about it. I have the Keys and the means of obtaining the mind of God on the subject."