Church Assistance in Gaza

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

In the Gaza Strip? Or do you speak of the Church in Islamic part of Israel. Can you provide a picture 

It has already been done, Bill, if you go back and skim the posts above, but here is the wiki reference to it if you don’t want to.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Saint_Porphyrius

Quote

The Church of Saint Porphyrius (Arabic: كنيسة القديس برفيريوس, romanized: Kanīsat al-Qadīs Burfīryūs) is a Greek Orthodoxchurch in Gaza City, State of Palestine. It belongs to the Patriarchate of Jerusalem and is the oldest active church in the city and is said to be the third oldest church in the world.[1]Located in the Zaytun Quarter of the Old City of Gaza, it is named after the 5th-century bishop of Gaza, Saint Porphyrius, whose tomb is situated in the northeastern corner of the church…

A church was built on the site as early as AD 425,[3] but the construction of the current church was undertaken by the Crusaders in the 1150s or 1160s; they dedicated it to St Porphyrius. 

 

[LoudmouthMormon]

Been paying attention and reading for 30 years.  The more I learn, the less I see "peace" as something that I find likely in that end of the world.  So many different fingers in the pie, so much history of people killing each other, so much history of outside forces meddling in ways that people violently hate.  

It's hard to find things to say that someone won't argue with, but I'll try one:

If the Palestinians would put down their weapons, there'd be peace.  If the Israelis put down their weapons, there'd be no more Israel, and a massive Israeli death toll.   

[Nofear]

deleted redundant wikipedia post

Edited November 8, 2023 by Nofear

[Calm]

1 hour ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

the Palestinians would put down their weapons, there'd be peace. 

You don’t think Israelis would be intent on rooting out Hamas and would just let them go? (Serious question, not meaning to be argumentative)

Edited November 8, 2023 by Calm

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

In the Gaza Strip? Or do you speak of the Church in Islamic part of Israel. Can you provide a picture 

It is in Gaza.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Saint_Porphyrius

It was hit by a missile strike in the current conflict. According to Israel it was an accident.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

40 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

It is in Gaza.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Saint_Porphyrius

It was hit by a missile strike in the current conflict. According to Israel it was an accident.

Good to know, but my guess is they must follow the teachings of Islam, or face serious consequences. They also have to be taxed for living there according to the teachings of the Karan. 

[Calm]

40 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

They also have to be taxed for living there according to the teachings of the Karan. 

A fine Christian tradition….

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_of_the_Jews_in_Europe#:~:text=The taxes on the Jews were first described as the,one gulden annually for protection.

Then there were the Christians taxing Christians for not being the right kind of Christians:

Quote

From the mid-1690s the annual Land Tax Acts required Catholics to pay double the tax remitted by everyone else.  

https://www.parliament.uk/about/living-heritage/transformingsociety/private-lives/religion/overview/catholicsnonconformists-/

As far as the Quran is concerned, the requirement of Jizya depends on who is interpreting it as so many times it does (same with the Bible):

https://www.britannica.com/money/topic/jizya

Edited November 8, 2023 by Calm

[The Nehor]

16 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

Good to know, but my guess is they must follow the teachings of Islam, or face serious consequences. They also have to be taxed for living there according to the teachings of the Karan. 

There is no official jizya tax in the Gaza Strip or West Bank. There is one reported incident in the West Bank (not Gaza) where a group of armed militants showed up at a Christian town and demanded a jizya tax. Realistically the jizya thing hasn’t been around in centuries and most Muslims in the Gaza Strip would probably have no idea what you are talking about if you mentioned jizya. ISIS is the only group in recent history that regularly demands it. To put this in perspective even Iran and Saudi Arabia don’t collect a jizya tax anymore.

Any time someone brings up jizya in modern times as if it is a regular thing you know they are an islamophobe or listening to the propaganda of islamophobes. It would be like someone trying to stir up anti-Christian sentiment by pointing out that they are anti-capitalist due to “holding all goods in common” or because they forbid collecting interest. Or that all Christians are necromancers because they perform baptisms of the dead as Paul attests. It is throwing out anachronisms to confuse the issue.

The Palestinian Christian population has nosedived in the occupied territories. There are several reasons for this. Muslim persecution can make it an unpleasant place to be. The Christians tended to be wealthier and many of them have emigrated out. Israel is MUCH more lenient about Christians leaving. This is primarily for the propaganda value. If there are few Christians in the occupied territory they don’t muddle the discussion. Israel wants to rely on foreign Islamophobia to get support. If the occupied territories are a religious mix this is much harder to do. Both the Jews and the Muslims want the Christians gone.

[The Nehor]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

A fine Christian tradition….

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_of_the_Jews_in_Europe#:~:text=The taxes on the Jews were first described as the,one gulden annually for protection.

Then there were the Christians taxing Christians for not being the right kind of Christians:

https://www.parliament.uk/about/living-heritage/transformingsociety/private-lives/religion/overview/catholicsnonconformists-/

As far as the Quran is concerned, the requirement of Jizya depends on who is interpreting it as so many times it does (same with the Bible):

https://www.britannica.com/money/topic/jizya

Thanks, I was going to bring up the Christian equivalent but didn’t have time.

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Thanks, I was going to bring up the Christian equivalent but didn’t have time.

I know more about way past history than recent stuff, lol

[LoudmouthMormon]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

4 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

the Palestinians would put down their weapons, there'd be peace. 

You don’t think Israelis would be intent on rooting out Hamas and would just let them go? (Serious question, not meaning to be argumentative)

You can root out, capture, try, sentence, convict, and punish all sorts of horrible people and organizations in peacetime.  I get your overall point, but would like to point out that Israel had withdrawn from the Gaza strip years ago. The Palestinians reacted by giving Hamas a majority of their government, and we got Oct 7th.

 

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

The Israelis do need to be armed to survive but the strong threats are not the Palestinians but the surrounding nations.

The families of 1400 dead Israelis, the 10 thousand wounded, and the hundreds of hostages and their families might disagree with you.   If you're referring to the notion that Palestinians are largely used as deadly pawns by other nations, I can agree with that.   I'd put it this way: Israel's threats include Hamas and Hezbollah, and also many surrounding nations, as well as much of the UN.  

Perspective: 9.5 million people in Israel.  1400 dead on Oct 7, or .0147% of Israel's total population.     333 million in the US.  If 9/11 killed killed .0147% of Americans, 49,000 people would have died.  Talking percentages, Israel suffered a tragedy roughly 16 times the size of our 9/11.

Not everyone is an enemy of Israel though.  It's nice to know the UAE, Bahrain, and Qatar all help with aerial defense against Iranian missile/drone threats.   It's especially notable that Saudi Arabia shot down a Yemeni missile headed for Israel a few weeks ago.  Not sure anyone foresaw the royal house of Saud, custodian of the two holy mosques, actually intervening militarily in an attack on Jews.  The world isn't talking about it, but I'm sure thinking hard about it.

 

Edited November 8, 2023 by LoudmouthMormon

[Calm]

1 minute ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

would like to point out that Israel had withdrawn from the Gaza strip years ago.

But had not ceased overall control of it in the sense of controlling at least its borders and what goes in and out of it, I believe. (I am not that familiar with the terms of agreement).

[MiserereNobis]

6 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

If the Palestinians would put down their weapons, there'd be peace.  If the Israelis put down their weapons, there'd be no more Israel, and a massive Israeli death toll. 

"True peace is not merely the absence of tension; it is the presence of justice."

I can’t think of any possible solution. There’s gotta be one, but asking the Palestinians to keep living the way they have been isn’t viable either. 

[Nofear]

Were the Palestinians to adopt Gandhi-like peaceful, non-violent protests as did the indigo farmers of India, a lot of the problems could and would be solved.
 

Israeli Declaration of Independence: "WE EXTEND our hand to all neighboring states and their peoples in an offer of peace and good neighborliness, and appeal to them to establish bonds of cooperation and mutual help with the sovereign Jewish people settled in its own land. The State of Israel is prepared to do its share in a common effort for the advancement of the entire Middle East." (source)

Hamas Constitution*: "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (source)
 

I can already hear the scoffs but the fact remains that the rest of the Arab states largely do not and will take the Hamas/Palestinian refugees (Al Jazeera editorial before this attack). They don't want them. In the past, the militant among them even had military aggression among their host nations. Hamas doesn't want peace. “I hope that the state of war with Israel will become permanent on all the borders, and that the Arab world will stand with us,” Taher El-Nounou, a Hamas media adviser, told The Times (NY TImes). The attack was designed to inflame the region.

* Pre-2017 version, but the current version only moderates a bit (Atlantic article -- whole article worth a read)

[MiserereNobis]

5 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

but my guess is they must follow the teachings of Islam

The Catholic parish in Gaza is definitely not following the teachings of Islam. 

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

"True peace is not merely the absence of tension; it is the presence of justice."

I can’t think of any possible solution. There’s gotta be one, but asking the Palestinians to keep living the way they have been isn’t viable either. 

I almost used that same quote. The Birmingham letter is truly an amazing document.

[Calm]

There are three Christian churches serving over 1000 Christians in the Gaza Strip according to wiki and a few other sources I skimmed…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Baptist_Church#:~:text=The Gaza Baptist Church is one of only three Christian,Orthodox Church of Saint Porphyrius.

Quote

The Gaza Baptist Church is one of only three Christian churches in the Gaza Strip, and the only one that is Protestantand evangelical – the two remaining Christian churches in the Gaza Strip are the Catholic Church of the Holy Family and the Orthodox Church of Saint Porphyrius.

 

[Calm]

12 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Perspective: 9.5 million people in Israel.  1400 dead on Oct 7, or .0147% of Israel's total population.     333 million in the US.  If 9/11 killed killed .0147% of Americans, 49,000 people would have died.  Talking percentages, Israel suffered a tragedy roughly 16 times the size of our 9/11.

And if the Gaza Strip was Canada, then the number of dead would be over 191,000(approximately .5% of Gazan population have been killed if I did the math right).  War of 1812 with America invading Canada in part for retaliation for British provocation seems the closest analogy, but obviously not that close…anyway, death toll on Canadian/British side was 8600 with a population of 525,000…but since they don’t divide the Canadians from the British, can’t get a decent comparison, which is okay because not the most applicable analogy, but it passed some time making it.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Calm

[Niblo]

On 11/7/2023 at 8:10 PM, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

Good for them, they are helping in Nations that will never allow us teach the Gospel of Jesus Christ. In Israel, they are opposed, fearing that the Jewish Faith will be jeopardized. In fact, I remember a story of Elder Holland was asked a question, by a passenger, while still on the runway. He would not answer until they left Israel airspace. This is because Latter-day Saints are prohibited from teaching, or preaching the Gospel in Israel. So no matter what we give, Israel will not allow, anyone to teach, or be taught, until after the “Second Coming of Jesus Christ”. The Gaza Strip is, Islam only, nothing else will be permitted, in any way. Also, and who might try to speak against Islam, will be put to death. 

So again, good for The Church, they are giving expecting nothing in return; EVER. God bless them, they see people in need, and they give accordingly. They do this to follow the teachings of The Lord Jesus Christ. I am so very proud, of our Faith. I only hope anyone does not find a way to criticize their efforts. 

There are Christian Palestinians in Gaza. 

[Nofear]

31 minutes ago, Niblo said:

There are Christian Palestinians in Gaza. 

And there are Arab Israelis (who can and do hold political office, vote, and have all basic citizen rights). The same can not be said of Christians or Jews in Arab autocracies.
 

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The Palestinian people have tried and many continue to try peaceful non-violent protests. It happens a lot in the West Bank specifically. It leads to mass arrests. The idea that they just ignored the option ignores almost a century of history and that protests of this kind (and often the right to assemble in general) are illegal.

Nevertheless, the approach can and must continue. The British did the same to the Indigo farmers (mass arrests, forceful dispersal, etc.). Peaceful protest is their only viable solution. For it to work the Palestinians must remove Hamas from their ranks. Violence of any sort will undermine the peaceful protests.

Heck, the neighboring Arab nations want Hamas gone too. They will cry foul (political theater) and condemn any inhumane actions of the Israelis (rightfully so), but in the end, they (at least the powers that be) want Israel to succeed. I'm not sure Israel can do it though.

[Nofear]

A military guy's analysis. I think he general comments on asymmetric warfare are correct. But, I think Hamas has made the tactical error of assuming the other Arab nations actually want them to succeed. Some Iranian hardliners aside, I suspect/want-to-believe that the neighboring nations also want peace. But, you don't need everybody to want peace to create conflict. A small minority can upset things.
 

But, perhaps this 8 year old The Onion video has the very best analysis.

 

Edited November 9, 2023 by Nofear

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

4 hours ago, Niblo said:

There are Christian Palestinians in Gaza. 

I have already responded to this, my original point is that the Church is assisting places where no missionary would ever be allowed to teach. In Israel, it is a violation of law. In the Gaza Strip, any missionary would be murdered. So, it is good that they gave to both sides, where we will never being welcomed, in short, not until after the Second Coming. You know in the Hebrew language, God destroyed the world by flood, because of Hamas. Because is Hebrew, the word Hamas means violence, odd or deliberate, that in the Gaza Strip, the government is called Hamas. God figure? 

[MiserereNobis]

Here is more on the Catholic parish in Gaza during this war, including pictures, interviews, etc. The Pope calls almost daily:

https://www.thenationalnews.com/mena/palestine-israel/2023/11/11/pope-francis-catholic-church-gaza-palestine/

[Calm]

On 11/8/2023 at 8:56 AM, Tacenda said:

Ya know, I have no idea, I hadn't read in depth this thread just skimming. And I liked the outside with the palm trees and the stained glass windows. ETA: I took a look at the photo that was after a bomb, and it does look like the front of the building with the cross. I sure hope not, all of this is so devastating. Why would anyone want to wipe out a people? 😓

My bad.  Not the same churches.  Both are the same color brick and both have a cross (so it must be the same building, right?! ), but the bombed church has the cross sitting on kind of a square section with a slanted top while the Catholic parish (Holy Family Church) is just straight diagonals to the peak, where the cross sits.  Even worse that I missed it, the bombed church is identified as Greek Orthodox while these shared pictures were of the Catholic parish.  I must have been really out of it at the time because I was reading the name “Holy Family Church” on wiki or something as I was looking for a side shot prebombing and was thinking “how weird the church has one name and the campus the church sits in has another”.

The inside of the Greek Orthodox Church is (was?) stunning:

https://english.alarabiya.net/features/2018/12/25/Church-of-Saint-Porphyrius-The-man-who-performed-miracles-and-fought-pagans-in-Gaza

https://www.flickr.com/photos/catholicism/11953503993/in/photostream/

https://orthodoxtimes.com/divine-liturgy-was-celebrated-at-church-of-st-porphyrios-in-gaza-in-midst-of-war/

The front of the church seems the same (a funeral, so just sharing the link).  The Israelis are reporting a wall damaged, but witnesses are saying the inside has been extensively damaged, but I can’t find any pictures.  It does look like a side building was crushed, but it might not be part of the church.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/20/destruction-chased-them-funeral-held-for-those-killed-in-gaza-church-airstrike

Edited November 11, 2023 by Calm