Looking for scripture

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Damien the Leper said:

Perseverance of the Saints is equally as harsh as the T, U, L, and I of TULIP. 

If one is a saint, born of God, it hardly seems harsh.  Isn’t it a version of once saved, always saved? (Sincere question)

Quote

Perseverance of the saints (also called preservation of the saints) is a Christian teaching that asserts that once a person is truly "born of God" or "regenerated" by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, they will continue doing good works and believing in God until the end of their life.

 

[manol]

9 hours ago, Damien the Leper said:

Perseverance of the Saints is equally as harsh as the T, U, L, and I of TULIP. 

I stood up on my chair and that still went over my head.  I'd like to understand the point you're making.

Can you explain?  Pretend I'm really slow.  Or, don't pretend...

[Damien the Leper]

18 hours ago, Calm said:

If one is a saint, born of God, it hardly seems harsh.  Isn’t it a version of once saved, always saved? (Sincere question)

 

 

14 hours ago, manol said:

I stood up on my chair and that still went over my head.  I'd like to understand the point you're making.

Can you explain?  Pretend I'm really slow.  Or, don't pretend...

The harshness I'm speaking of is that a person cannot choose to reject God, either. Due to double predestination, a person cannot make the choice to be saved or not. Nor can they make the choice to accept or reject God. How does one persevere if they are elected by God but never asked or chose to be part of the elect? Then we have to deal with the question of why would God predestine a person to paradise if the person does not believe in Him? This is an absurd rabbit hole of questions that have to be dealt with when dealing with TULIP. It really does become a headache.

Edited October 17, 2023 by Damien the Leper

[Pyreaux]

On 10/16/2023 at 7:18 AM, Calm said:

So they accept the good feeling parts of Calvinism and reject the parts that come across as harsh?

They believed in freewill, except when it comes to salvation once you've chosen it. Once saved always saved, I don't know the subtle differences, I just know its the same proof texts, no one can pluck you out of the Lord's hand (does "no one" even include yourself? Yes.). They believe you are saved by Confession of belief (though with true doctrines ideally). I was able to teach them the Law of Witnesses as it applies to the Trinity; a witness cannot testify of himself, the Father testifies of Jesus, therefore cannot be his legal self, and must be a separate legal person. I did this so they could use it against these other non-denominational "non-trinitarians", with a Pentecostal background that adopted 'Apostolic Oneness' doctrine (there is One God, who is in multiple places as he is omnipresent, Jesus is God the Father) but they at least have other more solid beliefs, conversion by the holy ghost (ideally falling on you and making you speak in tongues) though they believe you can fall away. I taught them the about biblical Apostacy of churches, churches the Lord "cut off" and personal apostacy, about how one can "quelch" the Spirit and it can "depart". On this we agreed, I didn't agree with everything, but as their friend, I made sure they could hold on to what they and I believed is true.

Edited October 17, 2023 by Pyreaux

[Damien the Leper]

21 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

with a Pentecostal background that adopted 'Apostolic Oneness' doctrine (there is One God, who is in multiple places as he is omnipresent, Jesus is God the Father) but they at least have other more solid beliefs, conversion by the holy ghost (ideally falling on you and making you speak in tongues)

Hey @Pyreaux. Are you familiar with anyone discussing Oneness and Patripassianism as being similar or the same? 

[manol]

45 minutes ago, Damien the Leper said:

The harshness I'm speaking of is that a person cannot choose to reject God, either. Due to double predestination, a person cannot make the choice to be saved or not. Nor can they make the choice to accept or reject God. How does one persevere if they are elected by God but never asked or chose to be part of the elect? Then we have to deal with the question of why would God predestine a person to paradise if the person does not believe in Him? This is an absurd rabbit hole of questions that have to be dealt with when dealing with TULIP. It really does become a headache.

Ah, I see now that TULIP is an acronym, about which The Oracle (Wikipedia) says: 

"The theology of Calvinism has been immortalized in the acronym TULIP, which states the five essential doctrines of total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, and perseverance of the saints."

Thanks for taking the time to respond, and unfortunately I'm not interested enough in Calvinism to mine it for worthwhile nuggets.

[Pyreaux]

1 hour ago, Damien the Leper said:

Hey @Pyreaux. Are you familiar with anyone discussing Oneness and Patripassianism as being similar or the same? 

They don't label things well, but they are both Modalistic Monarchianism, Oneness stemmed from the 'Jesus Only' movement when it says to baptize "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit", that Jesus is that name. They do ordinances in Jesus' name only. Like, the Monarchians taught the unity of the Godhead is in Christ.

The Monarchians taught the Son suffered the Father also experienced the sufferings. Early Christian Fathers famously accused Modalistic Monarchians of "patripassianism" as a pejorative (Latin patri-, "father", and passio, "suffering"), as the Father would have incarnated and sacrificed himself on the cross.

Edited October 17, 2023 by Pyreaux

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Damien the Leper said:

 

The harshness I'm speaking of is that a person cannot choose to reject God, either. Due to double predestination, a person cannot make the choice to be saved or not. Nor can they make the choice to accept or reject God. How does one persevere if they are elected by God but never asked or chose to be part of the elect? Then we have to deal with the question of why would God predestine a person to paradise if the person does not believe in Him? This is an absurd rabbit hole of questions that have to be dealt with when dealing with TULIP. It really does become a headache.

If we could program robots with feelings, would it be harsh to program them to be happy with their situation?   (A very simplified view of the perseverance of saints)

It seems like saints, those destined for paradise, would be created with the response of eventual joy to the situation in the end at least. 

[Damien the Leper]

12 minutes ago, Calm said:

If we could program robots with feelings, would it be harsh to program them to be happy with their situation?   (A very simplified view of the perseverance of saints)

It seems like saints, those destined for paradise, would be created with the response of eventual joy to the situation in the end at least. 

That would be ideal but I don't think it realistic. The problem with all of this is that it neglects our very real humanness. Part of being human is the ability to make choices. Programming or predestining someone in this sense is, IMO, highly unethical. It's like God is a puppet master and we are mere playthings for Him to use as He sees fit without consideration for how we feel or think. To make it worse, consequences be damned because those consequences aren't going to affect God in the slightest. If predestination is reality then God should not care what happens to His "elect" or "damned" along the way to their eternal destinations. 

[Dario_M]

On 10/16/2023 at 4:42 PM, Calm said:

She is right.  It is something we each must do.

Yes we all need to do that. We need to find our "New Man" 😇

It sounded so beautiful, the way how she said it. 

[mfbukowski]

On 10/16/2023 at 6:46 AM, Dario_M said:

I need a lot to repent for. I've done some crazy sins these last weeks. So i need to ask for forgiveness. And will do that also next week in church with more effort.

A girl in the church was so kind to me. She said to me that i don't need to be worried that i will end up in hell (something i'm really afrait off) and that i need to find my "new man." That where her words to me. So...that was kind of her to say.✝️ 

I just had to add my voice agreeing with the woman you quoted.  God is a loving Father who is there feeling our temptations with us, and feeling how hard it is for each of us to overcome every single one-- I think the harder they are for us individually is a gauge of our overall progression, and we are not expected to be instantly perfect.

God/Jesus is INSIDE each of us and has Himself experienced OUR temptations in the same way we experience them and knows exactly how hard it is for us.

He loves us all as little children who are not supposed to take cookies from the cookie jar, and are trying not to, but sometimes it is just plain too hard, but every time we win the test, the next time it gets a tiny bit easier.

He is looking for PROGRESS, that's all.  He is there with us in failure AND triumph.

Elder Merrill J. Bateman:

*"The infinite nature received from His Father gave Jesus power to perform the Atonement, to suffer for the sins of all. The prophet Alma in the Book of Mormon teaches that Jesus not only took upon Himself our sins but also our pains, afflictions, and temptations. Alma also explains that Jesus took upon Himself our sicknesses, death, and our infirmities. (See Alma 7:11–13.) This He did, Alma said, so that His “bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know … how to succor his people” (Alma 7:12). The prophet Abinadi further states that “when his soul has been made an offering for sin he shall see his seed” (Mosiah 15:10). Abinadi then identifies the Savior’s seed as the prophets and those who follow them. For many years I thought of the Savior’s experience in the garden and on the cross as places where a large mass of sin was heaped upon Him. Through the words of Alma, Abinadi, Isaiah, and other prophets, however, my view has changed. Instead of an impersonal mass of sin, there was a long line of people, as Jesus felt “our infirmities” (Heb. 4:15), “[bore] our griefs, … carried our sorrows … [and] was bruised for our iniquities” (Isa. 53:4–5). The Atonement was an intimate, personal experience in which Jesus came to know how to help each of us. The Pearl of Great Price teaches that Moses was shown all the inhabitants of the earth, which were “numberless as the sand upon the sea shore” (Moses 1:28). If Moses beheld every soul, then it seems reasonable that the Creator of the universe has the power to become intimately acquainted with each of us. He learned about your weaknesses and mine. He experienced your pains and sufferings. He experienced mine. I testify that He knows us. He understands the way in which we deal with temptations. He knows our weaknesses. But more than that, more than just knowing us, He knows how to help us if we come to Him in faith. That is why a young Hispanic woman suddenly realized that she was more than a speck in the universe when the Holy Spirit gave her a witness of the Restoration. She felt God’s love, that she was His daughter, and realized that He knew her. It also explains why the plan of salvation seemed familiar to my Japanese friend as the missionaries taught him and as the Holy Spirit confirmed his purposes on earth and his potential.*"

 

A Pattern for All

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2005/10/a-pattern-for-all?lang=eng

Edited October 19, 2023 by mfbukowski

[manol]

47 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

God/Jesus is INSIDE each of us and has Himself experienced OUR temptations in the same way we experience them and knows exactly how hard it is for us.

Yes! 

I don't recall seeing this concept articulated so plainly from within the LDS paradigm before. 

48 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

He is looking for PROGRESS, that's all.  He is there with us in failure AND triumph.

Yup!! 

Imo we actually have no need to fear God.

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, manol said:

Yes! 

I don't recall seeing this concept articulated so plainly from within the LDS paradigm before. 

Yup!! 

Imo we actually have no need to fear God.

I have felt this for some time now, but Elder Bateman's talk confirms to all that this personal atonement is more about empathy and helping us progress than paying a bill for sins. I never understood how good deeds including the Savior's death "paid a bill". How does "Mercy" - an abstract principle - "pay" Justice - another abstraction??  It sounds like personifications are being used to explain it all, while for me, it just is a story for children.  Logically it is a category error, imo, to think in terms of abstractions "paying" each other.

 

Yes, Jesus died to teach EACH OF US PERSONALLY how to  change our lives because we learn in Philippians 4 that with Him in our hearts, we can LEARN do all things directly from Him- to reach even exaltation - because He EXPERIENCED all that we personally need to overcome while at the same "time" He was learning for himself to overcome all things!  And so he DID learn from us by overcoming our individual sins and pains and trials and so too with EVERY individual who ever lived!  For me,I see it as a personal interaction which allowed Him to overcome our personal trials while we learned to hear his "voice" and teachings.

And so we learn how to be exalted, and he learned how to overcome all things, if and only if we follow Him in our hearts, where He can dwell, and as a"team" we become like Him.

Still of course that is simply an analogy for principles we are incapable of understanding until we escape the dark mirror and see "face to face".

 

[teddyaware]

2 hours ago, manol said:

Yes! 

I don't recall seeing this concept articulated so plainly from within the LDS paradigm before. 

Yup!! 

Imo we actually have no need to fear God.

We may have no actual need to fear God, due to the fact that it will be our own consciences that will either commend or condemn us before God at the final judgement. But if we are seeking to obtain exaltation we do need to fear faithlessness, procrastination and inaction because only the valiant will obtain the throne and crown over the kingdom. It’s for this very reason that there are three degrees of glory. The fact is that inheritors of the terrestrial kingdom do indeed have testimonies of Jesus, but they will be relegated to that lower kingdom of glory because they were not valiant in the testimony of Jesus. Seeing we don’t have and endless amount of time to prepare to meet God, dynamic spiritual progress is much to be preferred over merely ambling along the covenant path at a snail’s pace.

 

[manol]

On 10/19/2023 at 8:24 PM, teddyaware said:

We may have no actual need to fear God, due to the fact that it will be our own consciences that will either commend or condemn us before God at the final judgement. But if we are seeking to obtain exaltation we do need to fear faithlessness, procrastination and inaction because only the valiant will obtain the throne and crown over the kingdom.

I would use a bit different wording... I'd say that we would be PRUDENT to address and seek to overcome faithlessness, procrastination and inaction (or whatever our issues may be).

By way of example, I think it's appropriate that an adult or older child approach the task of crossing a street with prudence. But I think there is a stage in a child's development when it's probably a good idea for them to approach crossing a street with fear. So imo both prudence and fear can be useful.

One reason for not adopting a fearful outlook when we have the realistic option of adopting a valid outlook which casts out fear would be this: Fear inhibits our awareness of and receptivity to the indwelling of God within us. If our “radio” is tuned to the station of “fear”, then it is not tuned to the station of “perfect love”, and our ability to be of service is inhibited (but NOT eliminated) so long as we're in the energy of fear.

 

On 10/19/2023 at 8:24 PM, teddyaware said:

The fact is that inheritors of the terrestrial kingdom do indeed have testimonies of Jesus, but they will be relegated to that lower kingdom of glory because they were not valiant in the testimony of Jesus. Seeing we don’t have and endless amount of time to prepare to meet God, dynamic spiritual progress is much to be preferred over merely ambling along the covenant path at a snail’s pace.

I certainly agree with you that dynamic spiritual progress is much preferred!  We have to have climbed the mountain, or at least be on our way to doing so, before we can reach back and pull someone up.

Regarding the lower kingdoms, I think they are PATH rather than DESTINATION.

I don't think the Good Shepherd ever gives up on us, whether in this world or the next. But I DO think the Good Shepherd lets us take the long way home, learning our lessons the hard way, if we so choose.

Somewhere is that sheep who is the most lost, and I don't think he or she is forgotten and abandoned.

 

On 10/19/2023 at 8:02 PM, mfbukowski said:

I have felt this for some time now, but Elder Bateman's talk confirms to all that this personal atonement is more about empathy and helping us progress than paying a bill for sins. I never understood how good deeds including the Savior's death "paid a bill". How does "Mercy" - an abstract principle - "pay" Justice - another abstraction??  It sounds like personifications are being used to explain it all, while for me, it just is a story for children.  Logically it is a category error, imo, to think in terms of abstractions "paying" each other.

I think much of it is indeed just a story for children, but it has been a useful one. In my opinion:

As long as we believe in a God who tallies up our debts and requires payment beyond our capacity, the belief that someone else can and will make that payment on our behalf gives us relief from hopelessness and a strong rationale for pressing on.

That being said, imo the debt/payment paradigm is not the only viable Christ-centric paradigm despite its seeming ubiquity in Christian belief systems.

 

On 10/19/2023 at 8:02 PM, mfbukowski said:

Yes, Jesus died to teach EACH OF US PERSONALLY how to change our lives because we learn in Philippians 4 that with Him in our hearts, we can LEARN do all things directly from Him - to reach even exaltation - because He EXPERIENCED all that we personally need to overcome while at the same "time" He was learning for himself to overcome all things!  And so he DID learn from us by overcoming our individual sins and pains and trials and so too with EVERY individual who ever lived!  For me,I see it as a personal interaction which allowed Him to overcome our personal trials while we learned to hear his "voice" and teachings.

And so we learn how to be exalted, and he learned how to overcome all things, if and only if we follow Him in our hearts, where He can dwell, and as a"team" we become like Him.  [emphasis manol's]

Yes!  We play (or played) a direct role in it!!   Even if the "timelines" are not linear from our current perspective.

I would not be surprised if some day we discover an underlying reality wherein our identity (who and/or what we truly are) is a subset of the Christ, sort of like the branches are subsets of the vine.

Edited October 22, 2023 by manol

[mfbukowski]

8 hours ago, manol said:

perspective.

I would not be surprised if some day we discover an underlying reality wherein our identity (who and/or what we truly are) is a subset of the Christ, sort of like the branches are subsets of the vine

Yes, and all I say about Rorty and James et al makes the same point.

This is why Postmodernism is so important and can save religion!!

Truth it is said is SEEING THINGS AS THEY ARE, yet other scriptures tell us we NOW see things "through a mirror darkly"

WE CANNOT NOW SEE THINGS "AS THEY ARE" BUT ONLY AS OUR BODY PERCEIVES THEM!! Our bodies turn true reality into a mirror created by our own perceptions/experiences!! 

We look out at the world, but only see the mirror of our own perceptions

That means we CANNOT understand "TRUTH" NOW!

So there is no "underlying reality" - "underlying reality" IS THINGS AS THEY ARE - or "truth" as in Postmodernism, but we are blind to it and lost in words and perceptions.

Each of us sees only our own perceptions and call it Truth, and so we have "your truth" and "my truth"

The color red is REFLECTED light, INTERPRETED by our individual"minds". 

I believe that only the understanding of this principle can allow us all to stop this religious bickering and yes, even WARS! 

Our church teaches that "EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW" when all see and understand THE CHRIST, or things as they REALLY are.

So why worry about it?

Why argue about paradigms, in language tainted with ambiguity when all of them are imperfect anyway?

Yet from a perspective of American philosophy I believe our LDS paradigm is one of the best, for reasons I can demonstrate.  

But that is for later, and a very long story.  🙂

Edited October 22, 2023 by mfbukowski