BoM Witness Document Up for Sale on eBay - $1 Million Asking Price

[smac97]

Here:

Quote

The important 1877 testimony to the Book of Mormon written by the top co-founder of the Mormon Church is now up for sale on eBay under item number: 134644812800. The asking price is one million dollars. ARTSANDSCIENCES, the eBay seller, is offering the 6 May 1877 handwritten testimony by Mormon and first Church historian John Whitmer that he had sent to Joseph R. Lambert of the RLDS Church in Missouri at that time. The iconic historic manuscript letter was found pasted into a scrapbook journal over 20 years ago at the Renningers antiques market at Mt. Dora, Florida.

Here is a scan of the writing, together with a typed transcription of its contents:

Quote

The document has actually been known to the Mormon Church for almost 150 years yet 'lost' for almost the same period of time! The scrapbook found was filled with 1870's Mormon newspaper clippings and pages of odd text written in an unknown form that was first thought to be Mormon hieroglyphics.

I would like to see the scrapbook.

Here is a link to the eBay posting.  The opening bid is $1 million.

The article is poorly written, but worth a perusal.  It includes a link to an audio presentation by by Richard Warren Lipack before the John Whitmer Historical Association in 2019.  This is, perhaps, the most concise summary of this story I have seen so far.

The article also includes a link to a website, mormonkey.com (which Mr. L, which domain also includes a long - and also poorly-written - article on the above item: John Whitmer 6th May 1877 Book of Mormon Testimony Discovered.  This too is not written well.  A shame, as this is an interesting story.

Thanks,

-Smac

[blackstrap]

21 minutes ago, smac97 said:

handwritten testimony by Mormon

Now THAT might be worth the price.😁

[pogi]

If I had to guess, the "odd text written in an unknown form" was written using the Deseret Alphabet:

https://www.lostmormonism.com/mormon-language-deseret-alphabet-and-adamic-tongue/

It would be interesting to translate the diary using the Deseret alphabet. 

Edited July 20, 2023 by pogi

[Calm]

“Top co-founder” for John Whitmer is pushing it a bit.  

Is it typical to have such expensive items on auction on eBay these days?  Typical in the sense that if you have $1,000,000 items, there is a good chance you would offer them up on eBay. 

I would not trust such a sale myself. It feels cheap (not willing to pay an auction house, though I get this is a purely personal reaction), so I assume the guy is trying to get as much money as possible, so now assume it is really inflated in price. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

If I had to guess, the "odd text written in an unknown form" was written using the Deseret Alphabet:

https://www.lostmormonism.com/mormon-language-deseret-alphabet-and-adamic-tongue/

It would be interesting to translate the diary using the Deseret alphabet. 

I suppose an RLDS historian (Joseph Lambert, the original owner of the scrapbook) might be interested enough in the Brighamites to include it, seems unlikely though. 

Edited July 20, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

I decided to do a bit of research.  Here is the About on the seller:

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About us

FIFTY YEARS IN THE BUSINESS OF SELLING VINTAGE & ANTIQUE TECHNOLOGICAL ARTIFACTS INCLUDING ANTIQUE CAMERAS, DAGUERREOTYPES, STEREOVIEWS, RARE TYPEWRITERS, ANTIQUE MICROSCOPES, SURVEYING EQUIPMENT, EARLY SEWING MACHINES, AUTOGRAPHS, ROCK & ROLL MEMORABILIA & PHOTOGRAPHS ETC. - AND SELLING THE SAME OVER TWO DECADES ON EBAY - SINCE 1998

And it has this which I am assuming is not self generated, but EBay generated.

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Location: United StatesMember since: Jul 19, 1998Seller: artsandsciences

Top Rated SellerARTSANDSCIENCES is one of eBay's most reputable sellers. Consistently delivers outstanding customer service Learn more

Quote

Seller information

• artsandsciences (3554) 
• 100% positive feedback

So reputable for eBay.

Everything else offered on the site is less than 10,000$, and only 4 items above $2500.  My guess now is the million is to attract attention, not that they expect to get it.

Edited July 20, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

If I had to guess, the "odd text written in an unknown form" was written using the Deseret Alphabet:

https://www.lostmormonism.com/mormon-language-deseret-alphabet-and-adamic-tongue/

It would be interesting to translate the diary using the Deseret alphabet. 

Given that John Whitmer apparently had at one time copies of BoM characters, whether the currently known document or something else, my guess is it they are those or at least John’s adaptation of them if he was using them to write and not just had a copy.

https://ensignpeakfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/The-“Caractors”-Document.pdf

 

[smac97]

52 minutes ago, Calm said:

I decided to do a bit of research.  Here is the About on the seller:

And it has this which I am assuming is not self generated, but EBay generated.

So reputable for eBay.

Everything else offered on the site is less than 10,000$, and only 4 items above $2500.  My guess now is the million is to attract attention, not that they expect to get it.

If I recall the audio presentation by Mr. Lipack correctly, he claimed to be the owner of the document (at least when the recording was made in 2019).  So he may be the person selling it on eBay.

Thanks,

-Smac

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I suppose an RLDS historian (Joseph Lambert, the original owner of the scrapbook) might be interested enough in the Brighamites to include it, seems unlikely though. 

We don't know if Joseph Lambert made the scrapbook though.  Its provenance is unknown, but whoever made it certainly was interested in Mormon history with all the newspaper clippings.  We don't know if the "pages" of odd writings are also pasted into the scrapbook from other sources or written by whoever created the scrapbook.   

42 minutes ago, Calm said:

Given that John Whitmer apparently had at one time copies of BoM characters, whether the currently known document or something else, my guess is it they are those or at least John’s adaptation of them if he was using them to write and not just had a copy.

https://ensignpeakfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/The-“Caractors”-Document.pdf

The fact that there are "pages" of these odd writings and characters leads me to believe that they are not BoM characters, but are more likely documents written using the Deseret alphabet.  Whoever created the scrapbook obviously is interested in Mormon history and may have obtained and included these pages written from church leaders as part of their scrapbook collection.  That is my guess, anyway. 

[Calm]

17 minutes ago, pogi said:

We don't know if Joseph Lambert made the scrapbook though.  Its provenance is unknown, but whoever made it certainly was interested in Mormon history with all the newspaper clippings.  We don't know if the "pages" of odd writings are also pasted into the scrapbook from other sources or written by whoever created the scrapbook.   

The fact that there are "pages" of these odd writings and characters leads me to believe that they are not BoM characters, but are more likely documents written using the Deseret alphabet.  Whoever created the scrapbook obviously is interested in Mormon history and may have obtained and included these pages written from church leaders as part of their scrapbook collection.  That is my guess, anyway. 

You are right, I misread the info.

However, rereading the first link, there is a reference to Pitman shorthand…

Quote

At one point, looking through an old book on Pitman shorthand from the late 1800's at an antiques show, Lipack noticed a certain character he remembered seeing in his Mormon journal. It was the word "God." After buying the little book on Pitman, Lipack started to contact Pitman shorthand organizations in both the US and Canada, and sent samples of the journal's text to members to try deciphering the strange code. But to no avail could any of them do it!…

She had perfected the transcription of "Early Pitman" shorthand in 1995 after transcribing three old Civil War diaries - and shortly thereafter was given a Library of Congress citation for being first in the world able to transcribe the lost "Early Pitman" shorthand in these modern times….

In 2010, just a few years later after historian Lipack found Dorothy Roberts to do the Journal transcription, he stumbled upon an article by Mormon historian Richard Lloyd Anderson in a Jan. 30, 2005 BYU publication citing a letter dated Jan. 29, 1884, written by none other than Joseph R. Lambert - the same person who received the 1877 testimony found in Lambert's Journal.

Smac is right, poorly written.  What are “Mormon hieroglyphics” for example.  Could be the KEP stuff, the BoM “caractors”, the Deseret Alphabet…but maybe the “first thought” means that they figured out it had nothing to do with Mormons because it was a shorthand no one could read.

I also found out why I was thinking it was Lambert’s scrapbook…see the bold.

Edited July 20, 2023 by Calm

[Thinking]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

not that they expect to get it.

There are some members with a lot of money who just might like to own something that nobody else has.

[sunstoned]

eBay posting asking 1 Million?   Sounds like something Mark Hoffman would do.

[Calm]

7 hours ago, Thinking said:

There are some members with a lot of money who just might like to own something that nobody else has.

True, but I doubt they would pay $1,000,000 if they could get it for less. And as far as I can tell given the price of a few similar items that were sold a few years ago that I came across while looking for info, there will not be a bidding war starting anywhere close to that amount.

This whole collection was valued recently at $3.2 million and it apparently has quite a few letters from Brigham Young and 3 first editions of the Book of Mormon, among its over $4000 items. 

https://www.deseret.com/faith/2021/11/3/22760923/for-sale-whats-in-this-collection-of-rare-and-historic-latter-day-saint-items-valued-at-3-2-million

While a handwritten letter from a former church historian and one of the eight witnesses giving his testimony later in his life is cool, is it that unusual? 
 

Edited July 21, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

6 hours ago, sunstoned said:

eBay posting asking 1 Million?   Sounds like something Mark Hoffman would do.

Really?  I thought he worked hard to make things look realistic, reasonable, expected with maybe a little twist at times, but I know little about him.

[Stargazer]

6 hours ago, sunstoned said:

eBay posting asking 1 Million?   Sounds like something Mark Hoffman would do.

Yes, and that occurred to me, too. Calm did a bit of a research on the eBay seller, and eBay's own profile of the seller indicates that the seller is well-established and has a very good customer service. 

The eBay seller might be fronting the sale for someone else, of course, and possibly a Hoffman imitator.

[smac97]

A few further notes:

1. The article in the OP is actually a press release by "Barrister Publishers, Inc.," which is a bookstore apparently specializing in discount law textbooks to students. 

2. The primary contact for this outfit is Richard W. Lipack, the guy who owns the document and who has put it up on eBay.

3. The press release issues yesterday describes John Whitmer in the first sentence as "the top co-founder of the Mormon Church," and thereafter states that "John Whitmer was essentially a co-founder of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."

4. Today Mr. Lipack re-published the press release.  Whereas the previous title of the release was this:

KEY MORMON DOCUMENT FOUND AT ANTIQUES MARKET OVER 20 YEARS AGO NOW FOR SALE ON EBAY FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS

Today, the title is this:  

MORMON CO-FOUNDER JOHN WHITMER "LOST" 6 MAY 1877 BIBLE TESTIMONY FOR SALE ON EBAY FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS

5. The video at the bottom of the release is . . . really weird (no audio except bizarre sounds), but it includes some video of the scrapbook into which the Whitmer letter is pasted:

Thanks,

-Smac

[Calm]

So at around 15 minutes, he is trying to make it sound like the discovery (perhaps?) of the unidentified journal that contained the letter to Lambert was as mystical and and marvelous as the discovery of the Gold Plates.

What an odd choice for the soundtrack.  Went for “creepy”.  Not sure that is going to appeal to his target market, but given the way he presents Whitney’s place in church history, it would seem he isn’t aiming at devout Saints who are vaguely familiar with their history.

The uniqueness of the letter is it is apparently the only extant handwritten testimony by one of the witnesses.  It looks in rather good shape.  I am skipping most of the video.  Anyone notice him saying it has been authenticated?  Or did he speak of authentication in his MHA presentation?

”wholly finite voracity”?

Edited July 21, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

An example of the “hieroglyphics” is at 15:48.  My guess is they are shorthand, given the name and numbers written out, as well as my taking a brief look at a Pitman text (but not an early version, so not identical).

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

Really?  I thought he worked hard to make things look realistic, reasonable, expected with maybe a little twist at times, but I know little about him.

Though if you hadn’t meant the million,  but rather how it was found in a scrapbook along with a number of other, likely quite minor finds….that does sound like Hoffman trying to give a forgery weight by including it in among the real thing.

[Calm]

Lipack appears to have a wide range of interests…

Quote

Richard Warren Lipack, under the auspice of Barrister Publishers, Inc. publish material, historical and key photographs and information for public access that is disseminated worldwide.

Mr. Lipack is a historian that addresses important world events that have occurred over the last few centuries and much of the material he discovers and then writes about or images he releases based on his discoveries become used by others after over time. Richard Warren Lipack's work and discoveries appear on the Global History Network of the Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers (IEEE) website, to which he is a primary contributor. Here the discovery of the manuscript journal of Sir William Fothergill Cooke, the primary co-inventor with England's Sir Charles Wheatstone, of the first perfected digital electric telegraph communications system of 1840, is presented. Other important material on Thomas A. Edison, Nikola Tesla and Westinghouse's Oliver B. Shallenberger have been revealed on the site as well by Mr. Lipack. Aside from the IEEE material on William Fothergill Cooke that has been presented, core information as well can be found at:

williamfothergillcooke.com 

Mr. Lipack also has made important discoveries and disclosures concerning the Mormon religion and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints - found at MormonKey.com.

A prior association of Mr. Lipack's was with Clive Epstein and Queenie Epstein, the brother and mother respectively of the late Beatles manager Brian Epstein. This association in part contributed to the eventual publication by Barrister Publishers, Inc. in 1996 of a exhaustive book on the Beatles, of which copies are now housed in the Harvard University and Cornell University libraries, among others.

On August 1, 1971 Richard Warren Lipack produced the only extant video television recording of George Harrison's Concert for Bangla Desh at the Madison Square Garden, NYC., the first charity benefit concert ever. Images from this video can be seen on Wikipedia and Wikiwand websites the world over. 

More substantial works by Richard Warren Lipack and Barrister Publishers, Inc. are currently in production.

https://www.24-7pressrelease.com/press-release/471902/coronavirus-toward-curbing-covid-19-spread

[smac97]

31 minutes ago, Calm said:

So at around 15 minutes, he is trying to make it sound like the discovery (perhaps?) of the unidentified journal that contained the letter to Lambert was as mystical and and marvelous as the discovery of the Gold Plates.

Yes.

31 minutes ago, Calm said:

What an odd choice for the soundtrack.  Went for “creepy”.  Not sure that is going to appeal to his target market, but given the way he presents Whitney’s place in church history, it would seem he isn’t aiming at devout Saints who are vaguely familiar with their history.

His approach to the Church in his 2019 presentation to the John Whitmer Historical Association is also pretty odd.  

The document obviously has historical - and even some real doctrinal - significance, but he seems to have been offended at the purported lack of interest by the Church (such as from folks with the Joseph Smith Papers project).  

31 minutes ago, Calm said:

The uniqueness of the letter is it is apparently the only extant handwritten testimony by one of the witnesses.  It looks in rather good shape.  I am skipping most of the video.  Anyone notice him saying it has been authenticated?  Or did he speak of authentication in his MHA presentation?

Nope, he seems to presume authenticity.

He also is pushing this, I think, primarily for financial gain (he pretty much admits as much in his MHA presentation).

31 minutes ago, Calm said:

”wholly finite voracity”?

Yes, lots of spelling errors.  The guy seems pretty eccentric.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Calm]

https://www.jwha.info/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/2019-Agenda-at-a-Glance-9.10.19.pdf
 

I can’t copy paste it, but the title of Lipack’s presentation or maybe it was a discussion was “Discovery of John Whitmer’s Lost…Testimony….and Threat to Church Foundations by Failure to Embrace”

Would really like to know what he is talking about with the second part….

[smac97]

8 minutes ago, Calm said:

Lipack appears to have a wide range of interests…

https://www.24-7pressrelease.com/press-release/471902/coronavirus-toward-curbing-covid-19-spread

Yep.  And it looks like he just lucked into the Whitmer letter.  In his MHA presentation he says he found the scrapbook in a bookstore in Mount Dora, Florida in 2001 or so.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, smac97 said:

he seems to have been offended at the purported lack of interest by the Church (such as from folks with the Joseph Smith Papers project).…He also is pushing this, I think, primarily for financial gain (he pretty much admits as much in his MHA presentation).

And how are the Church Foundations threatened by this lack of interest?  Does he explain that?

Quote

Nope, he seems to presume authenticity.

I am guessing he isn’t the expert he thinks he is if he is bothered by the lack of interest when he hasn’t had it authenticated.

Edited July 21, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Yep.  And it looks like he just lucked into the Whitmer letter.  In his MHA presentation he says he found the scrapbook in a bookstore in Mount Dora, Florida in 2001 or so.

Thanks,

-Smac

On a hillside just like the Gold Plates….  At least that is what I am guessing he meant.

Edited July 21, 2023 by Calm