Did Joseph Smith teach Adam-God?

[JLHPROF]

18 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

What a mature comment. This really adds to the discussion. 😎

Not sure where this "discussion" is heading.  It seems a bit lost.

Adam-God was taught by Church leaders under Brigham Young.  It wasn't universally accepted by all the Apostles.  It was taught in the temples.  It was referenced repeatedly by Brigham's successors until about 1910-1920.  It was a known doctrine but little publicized.

There is no record of Joseph ever teaching its key elements.  There are records of Joseph teaching principles which were related to it and probably led to it (source material).

In the 60s and 70s Spencer W. Kimball and other Apostles declared it a heresy.  This led to members trying to weakly pretend Brigham didn't actually teach it (about as effectively as the "polygamy was only due to a shortage of men" explanation.)

Not sure what else there is to say.  You can believe it if you like.  I generally do.  If you publicly teach it at Church you'll be disciplined.

Did I miss anything because this thread is a bit lost?

Edited March 5, 2023 by JLHPROF

[Grug the Neanderthal]

2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Adam-God was taught by Church leaders under Brigham Young.  It was taught in the temples.  It was referenced repeatedly by Brigham's successors until about 1910-1920.  It was a known doctrine but little publicized.

There is no record of Joseph ever teaching its key elements.  There are records of Joseph teaching principles which were related to it and probably led to it (source material).

In the 60s and 70s Spencer W. Kimball and other Apostles declared it a heresy.  This led to members trying to weakly pretend Brigham didn't actually teach it (about as effectively as the "polygamy was only due to a shortage of men" explanation.)

Not sure what else there is to say.  You can believe it if you like.  I generally do.  If you publicly teach it at Church you'll be disciplined.

Did I miss anything because this thread is a bit lost?

I think this about sums it up.

Although, I believe that the evidence in the OP shows that Joseph Smith taught key elements of Adam-God, not just principles related to it.

[JLHPROF]

32 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I think this about sums it up.

Although, I believe that the evidence in the OP shows that Joseph Smith taught key elements of Adam-God, not just principles related to it.

If he never taught that Adam and Heavenly Father (God the Father) were one and the same or that Adam was the father of Christ in the flesh or that Adam was a resurrected being in the garden then he never taught a key element.

Edited March 5, 2023 by JLHPROF

[webbles]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Adam-God was taught by Church leaders under Brigham Young.  It wasn't universally accepted by all the Apostles.  It was taught in the temples.  It was referenced repeatedly by Brigham's successors until about 1910-1920.  It was a known doctrine but little publicized

Why did it stop being taught or referenced?

[Grug the Neanderthal]

28 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

If he never taught that Adam and Heavenly Father (God the Father) were one and the same or that Adam was the father of Christ in the flesh or that Adam was a resurrected being in the garden then he never taught a key element.

According to Anson Call he taught that Adam and Eve were resurrected beings from another planet when they were placed in the garden. And according to Brigham Young and Eliza R. Snow he taught that Adam and God the Father are one and the same. 

Now, I get that these statements were made after Joseph’s death, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t part of the historical record of what Joseph Smith taught. 

The contemporary evidence from William Law and the minutes of the Council of Fifty is pretty strong, too.

1) Plurality of the Gods with God’s above our God, who had the ability to fall with all of his creations. Who fell with all of creation? Adam. The same Adam who Joseph said had obtained the First Presidency in the creation, who holds the keys over the universe, is the one who always reveals Christ, holds the keys over every dispensation, presides over the spirits of all men, etc.

2) Exalted men creating worlds for every wife they bring with them there. The more wives they have the more worlds they can create. This was only taught in conjunction with Adam-God.

3) Jesus Christ being the son of the first God or first man, who is called Ahman. Ahman, as in Adam-ondi-Ahman. 

Edited March 5, 2023 by Grug the Neanderthal

[JLHPROF]

4 minutes ago, webbles said:

Why did it stop being taught or referenced?

Depends who you ask.

Too controversial, not true, new beliefs by new administration, take your pick.

There's no right answer except "leaders of the Church didn't want it taught".

Pres Woodruff said "Before I sit down I want to say a word to the Elders of Israel on another subject.... Cease troubling yourselves about who God is; who Adam is, who Christ is, who Jehovah is. For heaven's sake, let these things alone. Why trouble yourselves about these things?... God is God. Christ is Christ. The Holy Ghost is the Holy Ghost. That should be enough for you and me to know."

[InCognitus]

19 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

And according to Brigham Young and Eliza R. Snow he taught that Adam and God the Father are one and the same. 

According to the apostle Paul, Jesus and Adam are one in the same.  But what the person means by that is also important to understand (and not just for Paul and Joseph Smith, that goes for Brigham Young too).

[Grug the Neanderthal]

2 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

According to the apostle Paul, Jesus and Adam are one in the same. 

Can you please share the scripture or scriptures you are referring to?

[JLHPROF]

15 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

According to Anson Call he taught that Adam and Eve were resurrected beings from another planet when they were placed in the garden. And according to Brigham Young and Eliza R. Snow he taught that Adam and God the Father are one and the same. 

Now, I get that these statements were made after Joseph’s death, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t part of the historical record of what Joseph Smith taught. 

And I accept that he may have begun teaching it privately near the end of his life. We have zero record of what he actually said to them.

Quote

The contemporary evidence from William Law and the minutes of the Council of Fifty is pretty strong, too.

1) Plurality of the Gods with God’s above our God, who had the ability to fall with all of his creations. Who fell with all of creation? Adam. The same Adam who Joseph said had obtained the First Presidency in the creation, who holds the keys over the universe, is the one who always reveals Christ, holds the keys over every dispensation, presides over the spirits of all men, etc.

2) Exalted men creating worlds for every wife they bring with them there. The more wives they have the more worlds they can create. This was only taught in conjunction with Adam-God.

3) Jesus Christ being the son of the first God or first man, who is called Ahman. Ahman, as in Adam-ondi-Ahman. 

Council of 50 teachings place it around the last year of his life.  Again I see no evidence he understood Adam-God prior to his understanding of the King Follett and Sermon in the Grove teachings.

His early teachings in Kirtland indicate he had a different theology. 

His vision in 1836 (D&C 137) show he viewed Adam and Heavenly Father separately.  So did the Lectures on Faith.

D&C 137:3 Also the blazing throne of God, whereon was seated the Father and the Son. 4 I saw the beautiful streets of that kingdom, which had the appearance of being paved with gold. 5 I saw Father Adam and Abraham; and my father and my mother; my brother Alvin, that has long since slept;

I believe he came to understand the three personages theology after translation of the Book of Abraham.  He came to understand the plurality of Gods after receiving the endowment.  And if he understood Adam-God it was not until 1842-43.  

His early teachings on Adam show he understood Adam's priesthood authority but not Adam's position in the Godhead.

[InCognitus]

10 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Can you please share the scripture or scriptures you are referring to?

"And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit."  (1 Corinthians 15:45)

[Grug the Neanderthal]

6 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

We have zero record of what he actually said to them.

We have what they said he told them. That’s a record. There’s not a lot of details, though. 

7 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

His early teachings in Kirtland indicate he had a different theology. 

I agree that based on his teachings at the time, it doesn’t sound like he believed in Adam-God back then.

8 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

His vision in 1836 (D&C 137) show he viewed Adam and Heavenly Father separately.  So did the Lectures on Faith.

D&C 137:3 Also the blazing throne of God, whereon was seated the Father and the Son. 4 I saw the beautiful streets of that kingdom, which had the appearance of being paved with gold. 5 I saw Father Adam and Abraham; and my father and my mother; my brother Alvin, that has long since slept;

The original version of this vision also has Adam and Michael as separate individuals. I am of the opinion that this vision is somewhat dubious or was very poorly recorded. I believe that it was a mistake to canonize it as part of the D&C. 

11 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I believe he came to understand the three personages theology after translation of the Book of Abraham.  He came to understand the plurality of Gods after receiving the endowment.  And if he understood Adam-God it was not until 1842-43.

His early teachings on Adam show he understood Adam's priesthood authority but not Adam's position in the Godhead.

He may have know about the 3 members of the Godhead earlier than that, but he definitely gained greater understanding of this and other doctrines through the translation of Abraham. The vision Zebedee Coltrin relayed from the mid 1830s, where he, Joseph Smith, and others saw Adam and Eve sitting upon thrones in heaven, indicates that Joseph may have known about Adam-God earlier and just kept it to himself publicly. 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

12 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

"And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit."  (1 Corinthians 15:45)

Thanks. That’s the one I figured you were referring to.

I don’t believe that this is saying that Adam and Christ are one and the same (the same individual). But I do think it’s evidence of Adam-God being true, though. It’s definitely interesting that Jesus is referred to as the last Adam. In my opinion this fits very well with Joseph Smith’s statement to the council of fifty about Ahman-Christ being the son of Ahman, the first God or first man. 

[Pyreaux]

27 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

"And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit."  (1 Corinthians 15:45)

The Kings of olden times, such as the Davidic kings, particularly during their resurrection dramas, assume the identity of their ancient ancestor, in this case Adam. Always somewhat of an Anti-Adam, to succeed where Adam failed.

Reminds me of the Jewish lore of Light Adam, Adam Kadmon, God first formed a ‘Light Body' of macrocosmic proportions to serve as a divine pattern for an earthly counterpart, the Biblical Adam. Normally thought to be a preincarnate Jesus figure.

[InCognitus]

15 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Thanks. That’s the one I figured you were referring to.

I don’t believe that this is saying that Adam and Christ are one and the same (the same individual). But I do think it’s evidence of Adam-God being true, though. It’s definitely interesting that Jesus is referred to as the last Adam. In my opinion this fits very well with Joseph Smith’s statement to the council of fifty about Ahman-Christ being the son of Ahman, the first God or first man. 

But as you can see, there's more than one way to call God "Adam", it doesn't necessarily mean that God the Father and Adam (the man called "Adam" in the book of Genesis) are one in the same person.  Brigham Young could have misinterpreted Joseph Smith, or you could be misinterpreting Brigham Young.  

"I want to tell you, each and every one of you, that you are well acquainted with God our heavenly Father, or the great Eloheim." (Journal of Discourses, Vol.4, p.216, Brigham Young, February 8, 1857)

 "'Who are we?'  But the Gospel tells us that we are the sons and daughters of that God whom we serve.  Some say, 'we are the children of Adam and Eve.'  So we are, and they are the children of our Heavenly Father."  (Journal of Discourses, Vol.13, p.311 - p.312, Brigham Young, April 17, 1870)

"We say that Father Adam came here and helped make the earth.  Who is he?  He is Michael a great prince, and it was said to him by Eloheim,  'Go ye and make an earth.'" (Deseret News, June 18, 1873).

It's not quite as tidy as you make things out to be.

[Dario_M]

7 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Can you please share the scripture or scriptures you are referring to?

Let God be God please. This whole disscusion makes me restless.

[Tacenda]

11 hours ago, webbles said:

Why did it stop being taught or referenced?

Probably because it didn't sit well with mainstream Christians?

[Tacenda]

10 hours ago, InCognitus said:

But as you can see, there's more than one way to call God "Adam", it doesn't necessarily mean that God the Father and Adam (the man called "Adam" in the book of Genesis) are one in the same person.  Brigham Young could have misinterpreted Joseph Smith, or you could be misinterpreting Brigham Young.  

"I want to tell you, each and every one of you, that you are well acquainted with God our heavenly Father, or the great Eloheim." (Journal of Discourses, Vol.4, p.216, Brigham Young, February 8, 1857)

 "'Who are we?'  But the Gospel tells us that we are the sons and daughters of that God whom we serve.  Some say, 'we are the children of Adam and Eve.'  So we are, and they are the children of our Heavenly Father."  (Journal of Discourses, Vol.13, p.311 - p.312, Brigham Young, April 17, 1870)

"We say that Father Adam came here and helped make the earth.  Who is he?  He is Michael a great prince, and it was said to him by Eloheim,  'Go ye and make an earth.'" (Deseret News, June 18, 1873).

It's not quite as tidy as you make things out to be.

Maybe BY reasoned it out in his mind how it's able to work, if we are to be Gods of our own world like what JS says, then that's how it must work, in BY's mind. 

[webbles]

59 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Probably because it didn't sit well with mainstream Christians?

In the 1910s-1920s?  In that time period, I don't believe the church cared about sitting well with mainstream Christians.

[InCognitus]

7 minutes ago, webbles said:

In the 1910s-1920s?  In that time period, I don't believe the church cared about sitting well with mainstream Christians.

Honestly, I'm not sure that's the goal even now.  We just want to be understood for what we actually believe instead of how some outsider spins it.  Jesus Christ is the center of our faith.  People need to know that.

[Dario_M]

Hello dear people. I need to inform you all about this topic. The...Adam&God theorie. Today i have ask 2 missionaries about this matter. And or it is true that Adam whas really God.

They basically told me that that whas sonsens. And that any of it isn't true. And they looked quite suprissed to me as well that i had ask this question. They thought it whas weird. And they have asured me that this theorie whas absolutely false. 

God bless. ✝️

@Grug the Neanderthal

Edited March 5, 2023 by Dario_M

[JLHPROF]

49 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

Hello dear people. I need to inform you all about this topic. The...Adam&God theorie. Today i have ask 2 missionaries about this matter. And or it is true that Adam whas really God.

They basically told me that that whas sonsens. And that any of it isn't true. And they looked quite suprissed to me as well that i had ask this question. They thought it whas weird. And they have asured me that this theorie whas absolutely false. 

God bless. ✝️

@Grug the Neanderthal

Yes that is the current Church teaching.  Your missionaries probably have no idea any Church leaders ever believed or taught it.  That's why they thought it was weird.  A lot of members have no idea it was ever a thing.

[Dario_M]

2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Yes that is the current Church teaching.  Your missionaries probably have no idea any Church leaders ever believed or taught it.  That's why they thought it was weird.  A lot of members have no idea it was ever a thing.

No and why should they anyway? We live in 2023 now, not 1823 okay. 

They are a few years younger then me as well. They are in their begin 20s. While i am allready 30. 

[JLHPROF]

20 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

No and why should they anyway? We live in 2023 now, not 1823 okay. 

They are a few years younger then me as well. They are in their begin 20s. While i am allready 30. 

I didn't realize that the truth or falsehood of a religious teaching hinged on the calendar year.

[Pyreaux]

3 hours ago, InCognitus said:

Honestly, I'm not sure that's the goal even now.  We just want to be understood for what we actually believe instead of how some outsider spins it.  Jesus Christ is the center of our faith.  People need to know that.

Like when the DaVinci Code came out, the church sent a memo to the missionaries to not be telling people we believe Jesus and Mary Magdaline were married. Almost every seasoned member believes it, yet not a doctrine and even forbidden to preach, not for being untrue, it's that it could be an unnecessary barrier for some people.

Oh, Mormons were all like, "I enjoyed that film, but I just didn't understand why that monk was killing everybody..."

Edited March 5, 2023 by Pyreaux

[Hamilton Porter]

5 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I didn't realize that the truth or falsehood of a religious teaching hinged on the calendar year.

He means it hasn't been relevant for a long time.