Notes on Gregor McHardy’s, "8 Myths of the Apostasy"

[David Waltz]

I received McHardy’s new book late Friday via UPS, and read it the next day. I found the book to be mediocre and a highly subjective work. The subjective aspect extends into three areas: first, selection of primary sources; second, selection germane studies; and third, his personal theories.

In this post, I would like to address his selection of germane studies. On page xi McHardy wrote:

>>In researching this book, I browsed through the extensive book catalogs of LDS publishing houses trying to find anything that would shed light on Mormon perspectives of the great apostasy. The results were dismal. Barely half a dozen works have been published on the matter over the last century.>>

The results of his research are then examined—6 books and 1 article—in pages xi-xxii. The following are those works, in the order presented:

The Inevitable Apostasy and the Promised Restoration – Tad R. Callister (2006)

The Great Apostasy: Considered in the Light of Scriptural and Secular History – James E. Talmage (1909)

Outlines of Ecclesiastical History – B. H. Roberts (1893/1895/1902/1924/1927)

Apostasy to Restoration - T. Edgar Lyon (1960)

“The Passing of the Church: Forty Variations on an Unpopular Theme” – Hugh Nibley (1961/1975)

From Apostasy to Restoration – Kent P. Jackson (1996)

Early Christians in Disarray: Contemporary LDS Perspectives on the Christian Apostasy - Edited by Noel B. Reynolds (2005)

Unfortunately, McHardy’s book has excluded a number of germane studies into the Great Apostasy from a LDS perspective.. The following list includes book length only contributions, from the most recent, to the oldest:

By the Gift and Power of God: The Last Dispensation – Leo Kappa (2018)

Standing Apart: Mormon Historical Consciousness and the Concept of Apostasy – Edited by Wilcox and Young (2014)

Turning from Truth: A New Look at the Great Apostasy - Alexander B. Morrison (2005)

Where Have All the Prophets Gone? - Scott R. Petersen (2005)

Apostasy from the Divine Church – James L. Barker (1960)

The "Falling Away": Or, The World's Loss of the Christian Religion and Church – B. H. Roberts (1929/1931)

In addition to the six above books, I must also add Nibley’s following book, for a large part of the content is directly related to the issue of apostasy:

Apostles and Bishops in Early Christianity - Hugh Nibley (2005)

McHardy has certainly left out some important contributions concerning the issue of the ‘Great Apostasy’ from a LDS point of view. The question for me is did he do so because of some suspect subjectivity, or was it due to shallow research.

 

Grace and peace,

David

Edited May 19, 2023 by David Waltz
typo

[InCognitus]

32 minutes ago, David Waltz said:

Apostasy to Restoration - T. Edgar Lyon (1960)

At least he said for the T. Edgar Lyon book, "And some of it was actually ... good!" (p. xvii).  I wish our priesthood manuals today were as fun as this one was.

I've read most of McHardy's book (we had a lot of family in town last week and over the weekend for a funeral, so I haven't had a chance to finish it yet).  I agree with what you said above.  And some of it is simply playing with words (as I said over in the other thread about this same book). 

[David Waltz]

4 hours ago, InCognitus said:

At least he said for the T. Edgar Lyon book, "And some of it was actually ... good!" (p. xvii).  I wish our priesthood manuals today were as fun as this one was.

The forward of Lyon’s book has the following information:

>>The basic reference work for the course is: Apostasy From the Divine Church, by Elder James L. Barker.>>

Barker’s Apostasy From the Divine Church, is by far the most comprehensive book on the ‘Great Apostasy' from a LDS perspective (over 800 pages).

Interestingly enough, T. Edgar Lyon wrote the introduction for Barker’s book. From that intro we read:

>>Although I assumed the responsibility for the work, the book is essentially as it was when Professor Barker finished his compilation and writing. I made no attempt to insert by own interpretation. Nor did I add anything to the text that was not in the original manuscript, except some citations to Professor Barker’s sources.>>  (Page x)

For McHardy to reference and comment on Lyon’s book, whilst completely ignoring the massive tome from which Lyon based his book on, is highly questionable behavior in my view. 

 

Grace and peace,

David

[Kenngo1969]

@David Waltz

Have you read Barry Bickmore's Restoring the Ancient Church: Joseph Smith and Early Christianity, David?  (To be honest, I have not yet: So many books, so little time! .) If so, where do you think it ranks in the pantheon of apostasolic* literature?  And I wonder, why hasn't Our Humble Correspondent, the author whose book is under discussion here, listed it among the works he considered? 

*Yes, I just made that word up, but I like it!  Roll with it!  

Edited November 8, 2022 by Kenngo1969

[David Waltz]

12 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Have you read Barry Bickmore's Restoring the Ancient Church: Joseph Smith and Early Christianity, David?  (To be honest, I have not yet: So many books, so little time! .) If so, where do you think it ranks in the pantheon of apostasolic* literature?  And I wonder, why hasn't Our Humble Correspondent, the author whose book is under discussion here, listed it among the works he considered? 

*Yes, I just made that word up, but I like it!  Roll with it!  

Hi Kenngo,

Yes, I have read Barry’s book (1st edition, 1999). In fact, I wrote a review of the book that was published by FARMS Review of Books:

A New Look at Historic Christianity

Barry’s book is a good intro to the combined apostasy/restoration issues. I did not include it in my list because only one chapter deals directly with the apostasy. As to why McHardy excluded it, I am beginning to suspect lazy research. Interesting enough, he did include Jackson’s book that has only one chapter on the apostasy.

BTW, Barry did on online debate with Steve Clifford, a Catholic gent, that is quite interesting IMO:

Who Holds the Keys? - Pope or Prophet

 

Grace and peace,

David

 

Edited November 9, 2022 by David Waltz

[3DOP]

13 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

@David Waltz

Have you read Barry Bickmore's Restoring the Ancient Church: Joseph Smith and Early Christianity, David?  (To be honest, I have not yet: So many books, so little time! .) If so, where do you think it ranks in the pantheon of apostasolic* literature?  And I wonder, why hasn't Our Humble Correspondent, the author whose book is under discussion here, listed it among the works he considered? 

*Yes, I just made that word up, but I like it!  Roll with it!  

Hey Ken. 

As I recall, there was an online discussion board where, after I had read Mr. Bickmore's book there was some spirited discussion with the author himself! This would have preceded the legendary ZLMB, which was begun in Sept. 2000. I am pretty sure that our own Calm was at this site. I wish I could remember the name and find our old posts.

Rory

[Kenngo1969]

17 minutes ago, 3DOP said:

Hey Ken. 

As I recall, there was an online discussion board where, after I had read Mr. Bickmore's book there was some spirited discussion with the author himself! This would have preceded the legendary ZLMB, which was begun in Sept. 2000. I am pretty sure that our own Calm was at this site. I wish I could remember the name and find our old posts.

Rory

Please picture me as Spock, with one raised eyebrow: "Fascinating!"

 

Thanks,

-Ken

[Calm]

1 hour ago, 3DOP said:

Hey Ken. 

As I recall, there was an online discussion board where, after I had read Mr. Bickmore's book there was some spirited discussion with the author himself! This would have preceded the legendary ZLMB, which was begun in Sept. 2000. I am pretty sure that our own Calm was at this site. I wish I could remember the name and find our old posts.

Rory

If it preceded ZLMB, I was not there, sad to say.  I enter the online world of religious discussion when I lost my discussion partner, my son, to his mission in 2001…I think ZLMB was 9 months old by then.

The only ones I know of were the AOL boards (Julian knows about them, but AOL was not available in Canada…at least not where I was) and UTLM  message board (Utah Lighthouse Ministery http://www.utlm.org ), which caused the creation of ZLMB by shutting down discussions on their own site, but I don’t see a message board attached to them.  I never posted on either, can’t remember if I visited the UTLM one at all…thinking I must have though, knowing me.

Edited November 9, 2022 by Calm

[Teancum]

12 hours ago, 3DOP said:

Hey Ken. 

As I recall, there was an online discussion board where, after I had read Mr. Bickmore's book there was some spirited discussion with the author himself! This would have preceded the legendary ZLMB, which was begun in Sept. 2000. I am pretty sure that our own Calm was at this site. I wish I could remember the name and find our old posts.

Rory

You sure this was not on ZLMB?  I think before that all that was out there was AOL discussion groups.

Edited November 9, 2022 by Teancum

[InCognitus]

16 hours ago, 3DOP said:

Hey Ken. 

As I recall, there was an online discussion board where, after I had read Mr. Bickmore's book there was some spirited discussion with the author himself! This would have preceded the legendary ZLMB, which was begun in Sept. 2000. I am pretty sure that our own Calm was at this site. I wish I could remember the name and find our old posts.

Rory

Barry Bickmore participated regularly in the Free-Saints listserv during the 90's.  But I don't know if that's where he had the discussion you're talking about (I don't remember that).  I had some discussions saved from ZLMB, but I can't seem to find them.  

[David Waltz]

4 hours ago, InCognitus said:

Barry Bickmore participated regularly in the Free-Saints listserv during the 90's.  But I don't know if that's where he had the discussion you're talking about (I don't remember that).  I had some discussions saved from ZLMB, but I can't seem to find them.

I have over 100 threads saved from ZLMB; will have some 'free' time tomorrow to check the threads that Barry was most likely to participate in. (My internet service was down all day, and just came back up a few minutes ago...have a lot of catching-up to do).

[David Waltz]

I could not stop thinking about ZLMB, so I put off a few things to try and find a thread with Barry involved. I have a saved WORD.doc that includes some ZLMB threads on the apostasy, as well as post by Barry that I copied into the same document.  I have posted the entire document over at a new thread at Articuli Fidei for those folk who may be interested in some nostalgia.

Grace and peace,

David

[Navidad]

On 11/8/2022 at 5:47 AM, Kenngo1969 said:

@David Waltz

Have you read Barry Bickmore's Restoring the Ancient Church: Joseph Smith and Early Christianity, David?  (To be honest, I have not yet: So many books, so little time! .) If so, where do you think it ranks in the pantheon of apostasolic* literature?  And I wonder, why hasn't Our Humble Correspondent, the author whose book is under discussion here, listed it among the works he considered? 

*Yes, I just made that word up, but I like it!  Roll with it!  

Love the new word! Permission requested to use it! 😄 I am now motivated to create an official bibliography (for me anyway) of sources on the non-LDS church-wide apostasy.

Edited November 10, 2022 by Navidad

[Kenngo1969]

12 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Love the new word! Permission requested to use it! 😄 I am now motivated to create an official bibliography (for me anyway) of sources on the a non-LDS church-wide apostasy.

By all means.  It is copyrighted, though, so there will be a small fee involved.  (But don't worry: We offer volume discounts!   )

[Navidad]

2 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

By all means.  It is copyrighted, though, so there will be a small fee involved.  (But don't worry: We offer volume discounts!   )

OK - I will donate your small fee to the fast offering in our ward! I am sure you will appreciate that! I just posted another question over on my thread on this subject. I hope you will check it out and respond to it. I am very interested in reading responses to it. Take care!

[David Waltz]

Back to McHardy’s book. In this post, I will expose two mistakes; mistakes so noticeable that it leaves me wondering how the author and proofreader/s could have missed them.

The first mistake is found on page xv. Note the following:

>>Another LDS work focusing on the great apostasy, Outlines of Ecclesiastical History, was published forty years later by the eminent B. H. Roberts.>>

Outlines of Ecclesiastical History was first published in 1893. Four more editions of the book were subsequently released in 1895, 1902, 1924, and 1927. In the bibliography of McHardy's book, only the 1902 edition is listed (p.114).

Now, if one subtracts “forty years” from 1902 we arrive at 1862. However, the only book on the apostasy referenced by McHardy prior to the publication of Outlines of Ecclesiastical History was “James E. Talmage’s The Great Apostasy (1909)”—p. xii.

The first three editions of Outlines of Ecclesiastical History were published before “James E. Talmage’s The Great Apostasy (1909)”, not “forty years later"!!!

The second mistake found in the book involves the misnaming of a book and the name of its author. In the bibliography we find the following referenced work:

 >>Rhodes, James Montague. "Acts of Andrew and Matthias,” In The New Testament, Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1924.>>

The above is first referenced on page 4, footnote 4, as “Rhodes, Acts of Andrew and Matthias,” page 453.”

This supposed author “Rhodes" is again referenced on page 6, footnote 10, as "Rhodes, “Acts of Andrew,” 332-33.”

Now, mistake number two contains three interrelated errors. Error #1, the actual name of the referenced author is Montague Rhodes James. Error #2, the actual name of the book referenced is The Apocryphal New Testament. Error #3 concerns one of the works referenced by McHardy from James’ book—“Acts of Andrew" is actually the apocryphal work "Acts of Peter".

More later, the Lord willing…

 

Grace and peace,

David

[3DOP]

On 11/9/2022 at 9:54 PM, David Waltz said:

I could not stop thinking about ZLMB, so I put off a few things to try and find a thread with Barry involved. I have a saved WORD.doc that includes some ZLMB threads on the apostasy, as well as post by Barry that I copied into the same document.  I have posted the entire document over at a new thread at Articuli Fidei for those folk who may be interested in some nostalgia.

Grace and peace,

David

Hey Dave,

I enjoyed re-reading what you, myself, and others had to say about the Apostasy over twenty years ago. Thanks for digging that stuff up. I thought you might have it! I miss our old friend paul hadik. And of course Dr. DCP. I hope all is well for them and everyone from those days.

InCog. You were there too! One of those Kevins, if I had to guess. Anyway, I had promised a substantive reply to your biblical arguments in favor of my faith. I have nothing new. I now know that I have only repeated myself here at this forum though the years, and forget that I said it a long time ago already, and could not say it more clearly today. I have not moved an inch. That is not an argument in my favor. Anyway, take a peek at our old discussions, and see if you have changed, or have developed your beliefs further. I do not think I have. I think you might find my reply to your recent post here, over there at ZLMB.

God bless you, my old anonymous friend.

Rory

Edited November 11, 2022 by 3DOP

[Calm]

I could not remember Paul’s surname (feel bad about that, but my memory is unkind to me so I don’t feel that guilty). Now you reminded me, I believe I have found him as it seems unlikely there is another one like him out there in the Pacific area, as I remember him working with both education and missionary work.

https://prel.org/person/paul-hadik/

https://www.citychurchhonolulu.org/leadership

https://www.citychurchhonolulu.org/sermons/r6cglzbfjetne98-knrx3-kdtlm-fhd98

Had a beautiful family…

https://m.facebook.com/photo.php/?fbid=3191298781134176

I feel like such a stalker sometimes, lol

 

Edited November 12, 2022 by Calm

[3DOP]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

I could not remember Paul’s surname (feel bad about that, but my memory is unkind to me so I don’t feel that guilty). Now you reminded me, I believe I have found him as it seems unlikely there is another one like him out there in the Pacific area, as I remember him working with both education and missionary work.

https://prel.org/person/paul-hadik/

https://www.citychurchhonolulu.org/leadership

https://www.citychurchhonolulu.org/sermons/r6cglzbfjetne98-knrx3-kdtlm-fhd98

Had a beautiful family…

https://m.facebook.com/photo.php/?fbid=3191298781134176

I feel like such a stalker sometimes, lol

 

Calm...hey. Paul won't mind being stalked/remembered. He looks so young. I know he will be happy to hear from us forgetfulfolk! 

[Gkmchardy]

Dang it, David. Where were you when I was trying to find books on the topic? I'll have to start reading again.

[Gkmchardy]

Dang it, David. Where were you when I was trying to find books on the topic? I'll have to start reading again. I did not purposely leave out any sources. I just didn't have all 5he truth because I didn't know where to find it. Also, I looked high and low for people to critique my draft, but again couldn't find anyone in my limited ken. Now I know where to go. I haven't but skimmed the comments here, but I'll certainly take the sincere ones to heart for the second edition.

Gregor

[David Waltz]

Hello Gregor,

What a pleasant surprise! It is so good to learn that you have seen this thread and are sharing some of your thoughts with me.

I have a few questions for you, but would first like to apologize for what may seem as some somewhat harsh criticisms of your book. In my defense, the issue of the ‘great apostasy' has been a topic I have studied at length since 1987—the year I was challenged by two LDS missionaries to read the Book of Mormon for the first time—and one that I am quite passionate about.

Now, a couple of questions that immediately come to mind: first, your book seems to be a bit of a rush job; is this assessment accurate? Second, your theory that the Aaronic priesthood was never taken away but remained in place, seems to make the appearance of John the Baptist to Joseph Smith Jr. to give him the AP quite superfluous; as such, do you think Joseph made up the event?

Looking forward to further dialogue…Grace and peace,

David

[CV75]

On 11/8/2022 at 8:47 AM, Kenngo1969 said:

@David Waltz

Have you read Barry Bickmore's Restoring the Ancient Church: Joseph Smith and Early Christianity, David?  (To be honest, I have not yet: So many books, so little time! .) If so, where do you think it ranks in the pantheon of apostasolic* literature?  And I wonder, why hasn't Our Humble Correspondent, the author whose book is under discussion here, listed it among the works he considered? 

*Yes, I just made that word up, but I like it!  Roll with it!  

Do apostaholics ever fall off the wagon?

[Gkmchardy]

David

No apologies needed. I did not take your criticism as harsh. Historians should be able to be blunt and forthright, as long as no ad hominem takes place. 

Tbe book was indeed written quickly, but I think the main problem was my working in a vacuum as well as being beans new to the publishing process. The publisher was unable to provide anyone who was qualified to critique the draft and wanted me to find someone myself...which I was obviously unable to do 

Good point about Aaronic Priesthood. That's why I suggested it as conjecture. But in my defense, if a literal descendant of Aaron could claim it without even ordination, there is obviously some facet of priesthood authority's durability that we have not pinned down. Also note that I do not claim that any remaining priesthood authority has the power to perform a celestial baptism, but only a terrestrial one.

Gregor 

 

 

 

 

[InCognitus]

4 minutes ago, Gkmchardy said:

David

No apologies needed. I did not take your criticism as harsh. Historians should be able to be blunt and forthright, as long as no ad hominem takes place. 

Tbe book was indeed written quickly, but I think the main problem was my working in a vacuum as well as being beans new to the publishing process. The publisher was unable to provide anyone who was qualified to critique the draft and wanted me to find someone myself...which I was obviously unable to do 

Good point about Aaronic Priesthood. That's why I suggested it as conjecture. But in my defense, if a literal descendant of Aaron could claim it without even ordination, there is obviously some facet of priesthood authority's durability that we have not pinned down. Also note that I do not claim that any remaining priesthood authority has the power to perform a celestial baptism, but only a terrestrial one.

Gregor 

I thought that was good point to make in your book, that there are literal descendants of Aaron and what their role is in the priesthood (D&C 68:15-20).  

The one thing that stands out to me in John the Baptist's restoration of the Aaronic priesthood in D&C 13:1 and in Joseph Smith History 1:69, is that he says "this shall never be taken again from the earth, until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness."   That statement implies it was "taken", but I think that means that their mechanisms of officiating in their offices in the priesthood were taken from the earth. 

As for why it had to be restored and conferred on Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery, they weren't literal descendants of Aaron and they needed the priesthood to officiate in many aspects of the restoration.

As for your last comment above, Joseph Smith seems to imply such in this statement:

Quote

Whenever men can find out the will of God and find an administrator legally authorized from God, there is the kingdom of God; but where these are not, the kingdom of God is not. All the ordinances, systems, and administrations on the earth are of no use to the children of men, unless they are ordained and authorized of God; for nothing will save a man but a legal administrator; for none others will be acknowledged either by God or angels.  (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section Five 1842–43, p.274, Discourse, 22 January 1843, as Reported by Wilford Woodruff)