Parable of the Talents: A call to venture into the marketplace of ideas?

[manol]

The Parable of the Talents is recorded in Matthew 25:14-30 and Luke 19:11-27. I'm going to assume everyone is generally familiar with it. A “talent” is a unit of measure used for precious metals like gold and silver. So in context the word “talent” symbolizes something of great value.

The default interpretation seems to be that the parable is about increasing one's talents and abilities, but I'd like to propose a different interpretation:  Seems to me the narrative better fits equating “talents” with “true concepts” or “great teachings” or “pragmatic ideas” or “eternal words”. Note that elsewhere Jesus identified his words as being of great value (Matthew 24:35). Note also that the faithful servants increased their talents by “trading” them, which is NOT how we increase our own “talents and abilities”, but it IS a way of increasing the “true concepts” we individually possess.

So I'm suggesting that the Parable of the Talents is telling us we should increase the number and/or depth of the true concepts, great teachings, pragmatic ideas, and eternal words we each possess. The way to do so is by “trading” - and imo that implies taking what we have been given out into the marketplace of ideas, applying what we have to what we encounter, and thereby acquiring more ideas worth treasuring.

Note that the servant who protected the true concepts his lord has given him by NOT exposing them to the risks of the marketplace of ideas did so because of FEAR. He was afraid of offending his lord. In rebuking him, his lord said something interesting:

“Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed.”

This doesn't make sense in the context of “individual gifts and talents”, but it does make sense in the context of “true concepts.” Here is a possible rewording:

“...you knew that all truth can be [included within] one great whole, whether or not it comes through the teachings of your religion.”

Mormonism contains many great teachings, many treasures of knowledge, on how to recognize truth. James 1:5; Alma Chapter 32; Moroni Chapter 7; D&C Section 9; not to mention that the first thing after Baptism is they give you the Gift of the Holy Ghost. So members of the Church are well-equipped to go out into the marketplace of ideas and add to the treasures they already possess.

All well and good, you may be thinking, but shouldn't members of the Church wait for instruction from their leaders before venturing forth, even if they seek after good things?  Let's look at D&C 58:26:

“For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.”

Notice the teaching in this verse parallels the teaching in the Parable of the Talents, which warns against squatting protectively on what you have already been given.

So where might true concepts be found which are not already taught by the Church?

“Seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith.” D&C 88:118 (Imo “seek learning by study and by faith” echoes the process described in Alma Chapter 32.)

“For I command all men, both in the east and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall write the words which I speak unto them...” 2 Nephi 29:11.  So God's words are not confined to the Church nor to its canon.

Is it really okay for Church members to take the great teachings they have been given – such as how to recognize truth – out into the marketplace of ideas and see if they can acquire more?

“We should gather all the good and true principles of the world and treasure them up, or we shall not come out true Mormons.” - Joseph Smith

“Seek and ye shall find.” - Jesus Christ

And who knows? Out there one might even find “great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures.”

Can the Parable of the Talents legitimately be interpreted as a call to venture forth into the marketplace of ideas?  What are your thoughts?

Edited July 12, 2022 by manol

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, manol said:

 

Can the Parable of the Talents legitimately be interpreted as a call to venture forth into the marketplace of ideas?  What are your thoughts?

Sure, why not?  Parables--like a lot of scripture--can be taken different ways depending on what the spirit is teaching the specific person in the moment.

[mfbukowski]

Heck yeah!

Ever been in Deseret Book?  Notice they sold more than scriptures?   Notice they maybe had a few other books to sell too?

You think these people were scared of sharing their points of view?

If you can in perfect conscience hold a temple recommend, answering the questions truthfully, you are as LDS as you can get and have a shot at exaltation as much as anyone!

[manol]

Bluebell and mfbukowski, thank you for replying.

28 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Ever been in Deseret Book?  Notice they sold more than scriptures?   Notice they maybe had a few other books to sell too?

How do you feel about shopping somewhere besides Deseret Book?

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Parables--like a lot of scripture--can be taken different ways depending on what the spirit is teaching the specific person in the moment.

Do you think the Spirit could have things to teach someone which are not presented in the "Deseret Book" category? 

For both of you (or anyone else) - where do you go to continue progressing when you already know every answer to every question in every Sunday class before it is even asked? 

Edited July 12, 2022 by manol

[CV75]

2 hours ago, manol said:

The Parable of the Talents is recorded in Matthew 25:14-30 and Luke 19:11-27. I'm going to assume everyone is generally familiar with it. A “talent” is a unit of measure used for precious metals like gold and silver. So in context the word “talent” symbolizes something of great value.

The default interpretation seems to be that the parable is about increasing one's talents and abilities, but I'd like to propose a different interpretation:  Seems to me the narrative better fits equating “talents” with “true concepts” or “great teachings” or “pragmatic ideas” or “eternal words”. Note that elsewhere Jesus identified his words as being of great value (Matthew 24:35). Note also that the faithful servants increased their talents by “trading” them, which is NOT how we increase our own “talents and abilities”, but it IS a way of increasing the “true concepts” we individually possess.

So I'm suggesting that the Parable of the Talents is telling us we should increase the number and/or depth of the true concepts, great teachings, pragmatic ideas, and eternal words we each possess. The way to do so is by “trading” - and imo that implies taking what we have been given out into the marketplace of ideas, applying what we have to what we encounter, and thereby acquiring more ideas worth treasuring.

Note that the servant who protected the true concepts his lord has given him by NOT exposing them to the risks of the marketplace of ideas did so because of FEAR. He was afraid of offending his lord. In rebuking him, his lord said something interesting:

“Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed.”

This doesn't make sense in the context of “individual gifts and talents”, but it does make sense in the context of “true concepts.” Here is a possible rewording:

“...you knew that all truth can be [included within] one great whole, whether or not it comes through the teachings of your religion.”

Mormonism contains many great teachings, many treasures of knowledge, on how to recognize truth. James 1:5; Alma Chapter 32; Moroni Chapter 7; D&C Section 9; not to mention that the first thing after Baptism is they give you the Gift of the Holy Ghost. So members of the Church are well-equipped to go out into the marketplace of ideas and add to the treasures they already possess.

All well and good, you may be thinking, but shouldn't members of the Church wait for instruction from their leaders before venturing forth, even if they seek after good things?  Let's look at D&C 58:26:

“For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.”

Notice the teaching in this verse parallels the teaching in the Parable of the Talents, which warns against squatting protectively on what you have already been given.

So where might true concepts be found which are not already taught by the Church?

“Seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith.” D&C 88:118 (Imo “seek learning by study and by faith” echoes the process described in Alma Chapter 32.)

“For I command all men, both in the east and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall write the words which I speak unto them...” 2 Nephi 29:11.  So God's words are not confined to the Church nor to its canon.

Is it really okay for Church members to take the great teachings they have been given – such as how to recognize truth – out into the marketplace of ideas and see if they can acquire more?

“We should gather all the good and true principles of the world and treasure them up, or we shall not come out true Mormons.” - Joseph Smith

“Seek and ye shall find.” - Jesus Christ

And who knows? Out there one might even find “great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures.”

Can the Parable of the Talents legitimately be interpreted as a call to venture forth into the marketplace of ideas?  What are your thoughts?

I take it as a call to let our light shine, which not only provides illumination for others to see the Lord where "haply they might find him" as they" feel after him," but helps us to find more to feel after. I think that feeling and finding is akin to the faith and knowledge dynamo.

[manol]

3 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I take it as a call to let our light shine, which not only provides illumination for others to see the Lord where "haply they might find him" as they" feel after him," but helps us to find more to feel after. I think that feeling and finding is akin to the faith and knowledge dynamo.

I like that!

So if I understand you correctly, as we let our light shine, we in turn receive more light?  That makes sense to me. 

[bluebell]

38 minutes ago, manol said:

Do you think the Spirit could have things to teach someone which are not presented in the "Deseret Book" category? 

For both of you (or anyone else) - where do you go to continue progressing when you already know every answer to every question in every Sunday class before it is even asked? 

1) Sure!

2) I have no idea. I'm decades or more away from having that as a problem. 

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, manol said:

Bluebell and mfbukowski, thank you for replying.

How do you feel about shopping somewhere besides Deseret Book?

Do you think the Spirit could have things to teach someone which are not presented in the "Deseret Book" category? 

For both of you (or anyone else) - where do you go to continue progressing when you already know every answer to every question in every Sunday class before it is even asked? 

Of course! Every PhD candidate in religion or scripture at BYU is REQUIRED to write a thesis/dissertation which is original research or a new paradigm, in order to graduate, and no graduation = no new professors, no jobs for them, AND virtually NO chance of being published by the Big D!

You need to read this kind of stuff from academic sources.

Look to academic journals, Interpreter, Book of Mormon Central, and Amazon topic searches on your interests etc. I read a lot on process theology, radical empiricism, phenomenological theology,etc.  I am sure that @Kevin Christensen could give a lot of advice!

Sunday school is taught at a very very basic level, which is where most members are. Not their fault! Pursuing scholarship is highly time consuming, and it is hard to have to work 40 hours, deal with kids, ballet class, soccer practice etc. etc.

Edited July 13, 2022 by mfbukowski

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, manol said:

For both of you (or anyone else) - where do you go to continue progressing when you already know every answer to every question in every Sunday class before it is even asked? 

1. To the temple

2. To the family

3. To SLC to write the curriculum for next year’s lessons

4. To be with Enoch

Edited July 13, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[manol]

1 hour ago, Obehave said:

Can you recall instances when you experienced that? Even when people resisted and opposed the ideas you were sharing? Maybe even especially then? 

In conversations where there was some resistance going on, sometimes I've had things come into my mind that I never would have thought of on my own, insights which seemed tailored to the situation.

But in my experience “deep” insights either come during conversations where the parties are very much “on the same wavelength”, or when I have been seeking/studying/contemplating on my own. More often the latter than the former, perhaps from lack of opportunity.

You specifically mention “when people resisted or opposed” my ideas... hmm...

Personally, I have never found butting heads against “resitance” or “opposition” over spiritual concepts to be a profitable endeavor. Now that doesn't mean I haven't and won't engage in it anyway, but I cannot think of a single time I've “gone to war” verbally over the kinds of ideas we discuss on this site that I have come away feeling good about it. I think the lesson FOR ME (in other words, I am NOT saying this applies to anyone else) is that the energy, the feeling, the vibration, the spirit in attendance if you will, matters more than which ideas “prevail”.

Since I've been really paying attention to it, which has been months rather than years, it seems that there is a correlation between my own efforts to deliberately choose (insofar as I am able to in the moment, and whenever I think about it) where I am on the “spirit-energy spectrum”, and my susceptibility to insights. So I have to forego opportunities to “score points” with a killer “zinger”, as I now know that (for me at least) there is an energetic price tag attached. This could very well be simply a lesson that I am supposed to learn at this time.

Hoping to bring my ramble back around to your question, imo it is the Holy Spirit's job to teach people, and it is my job to get out of the way of that happening. Anything else beneficial that comes along, like a worthwhile insight, is a bonus... but if I'm entrusted with such, imo it is my job to present it in a way that honors the spirit in attendance.

 

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

1. To the temple

2. To the family

3. To SLC to write the curriculum for next year’s lessons

4. To be with Enoch

I love it! 

Whether you are partially joking or not, I love it!!

Edited July 13, 2022 by manol

[CV75]

13 hours ago, manol said:

I like that!

So if I understand you correctly, as we let our light shine, we in turn receive more light?  That makes sense to me. 

Yes, from D&C 50:

24 That which is of God is ^alight; and he that ^breceiveth ^clight, and ^dcontinueth in God, receiveth more ^elight; and that light groweth brighter and brighter until the perfect day.

Because light illuminates the world around/within us, and we see by reflected light, we can discern between light/goodness and darkness/evil but also use neutral things (e.g., material resources, scientific knowledge, etc.) for our and others' benefit. Repentance dispels the darkness in our lives and improves the world around us. On the other hand, (rebellion turns our lives away from the light.

[Bernard Gui]

20 hours ago, manol said:

In conversations where there was some resistance going on, sometimes I've had things come into my mind that I never would have thought of on my own, insights which seemed tailored to the situation.

But in my experience “deep” insights either come during conversations where the parties are very much “on the same wavelength”, or when I have been seeking/studying/contemplating on my own. More often the latter than the former, perhaps from lack of opportunity.

You specifically mention “when people resisted or opposed” my ideas... hmm...

Personally, I have never found butting heads against “resitance” or “opposition” over spiritual concepts to be a profitable endeavor. Now that doesn't mean I haven't and won't engage in it anyway, but I cannot think of a single time I've “gone to war” verbally over the kinds of ideas we discuss on this site that I have come away feeling good about it. I think the lesson FOR ME (in other words, I am NOT saying this applies to anyone else) is that the energy, the feeling, the vibration, the spirit in attendance if you will, matters more than which ideas “prevail”.

Since I've been really paying attention to it, which has been months rather than years, it seems that there is a correlation between my own efforts to deliberately choose (insofar as I am able to in the moment, and whenever I think about it) where I am on the “spirit-energy spectrum”, and my susceptibility to insights. So I have to forego opportunities to “score points” with a killer “zinger”, as I now know that (for me at least) there is an energetic price tag attached. This could very well be simply a lesson that I am supposed to learn at this time.

Hoping to bring my ramble back around to your question, imo it is the Holy Spirit's job to teach people, and it is my job to get out of the way of that happening. Anything else beneficial that comes along, like a worthwhile insight, is a bonus... but if I'm entrusted with such, imo it is my job to present it in a way that honors the spirit in attendance.

 

I love it! 

Whether you are partially joking or not, I love it!!

Partially joking. Seriously, what would you suggest for the Church-wide Sunday school courses?

[manol]

On 7/12/2022 at 7:19 PM, mfbukowski said:

Of course! Every PhD candidate in religion or scripture at BYU is REQUIRED to write a thesis/dissertation which is original research or a new paradigm, in order to graduate,

Very interesting! Is this something you have experience with?

On 7/12/2022 at 7:19 PM, mfbukowski said:

You need to read this kind of stuff from academic sources.

Sounds like you're telling me "seek and ye shall find."  So I seeked, and found something called the "BYU Scholars Archive".   Thanks for the suggestion!

12 hours ago, CV75 said:

Yes, from D&C 50:

24 That which is of God is ^alight; and he that ^breceiveth ^clight, and ^dcontinueth in God, receiveth more ^elight; and that light groweth brighter and brighter until the perfect day.

I had forgotten that verse, thanks! Yes I think that is the pattern, which is why “more is given” to those who “have more”. Light begets light (and darkness begets darkness), but it is always our choice, whether we choose consciously or not, whether we receive (and abide in) the light or not.

7 hours ago, Obehave said:

Imagine me reading what you said like this:  As I read your response I agreed with much of what you said but I also sensed some resistance from you for not accepting what I was suggesting.  And rather than thinking there was and is no hope that you might accept what I was suggesting, and me then just dropping the discussion, I got some ideas about what I could say next which might help you to better see what I was suggesting... that is, that even when people resist and oppose the ideas you (or anyone else) is sharing, as we let our light shine, we in turn receive more light, maybe even especially when we encounter resistance and opposition.

Great analysis!  And your sensing was correct.  THANK YOU for explaining, I had misunderstood you.

7 hours ago, Obehave said:

I agree that our goal should be to only share true information and ideas we have received... to let our light shine, so to speak... and I agree that we really can't do anything on our own to convince someone else that what we are saying is true and good, but I have seen that as we do our part, even when we encounter resistance and opposition, we WILL (or at least can) receive more light on whatever issue we are discussing with others and then maybe, just maybe, the person we are sharing our light with will eventually see the light, too.  

That makes sense, and assuming both parties have good intentions then the worst that can happen is we end up understanding one another.

But I should probably clarify something: I don't necessarily make the assumption that the light I have received is “what's right” for the other person, be that you or anyone else. 

I think we each come here having signed up for different challenges, different adventures, different lessons, and different roles. Maybe you are majoring in courage with a minor in wisdom. And maybe I am majoring in forgiveness with a minor in patience. So if somebody cuts in front of us at the line in the supermarket, you and I may be supposed to have very different responses, yet both of us being true to who and what we are.

Maybe this person's role is to be obedient, and that person's role is to challenge things that don't make sense.  Maybe one person is a warrior, and another is a peacemaker.  And maybe we are all (every single one of us) parts of the Body of Christ. 

Anyway that's the paradigm I try to live up to.

25 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Partially joking. Seriously, what would you suggest for the Church-wide Sunday school courses?

So you were serious about your conversations with Enoch?

I don't have any ideas for Church-wide Sunday school classes, at least not yet.

Edited July 14, 2022 by manol

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, manol said:

Very interesting! Is this something you have experience with?

Sounds like you're telling me "seek and ye shall find."  So I seeked, and found something called the "BYU Scholars Archive".   Thanks for the suggestion!

I had forgotten that verse, thanks! Yes I think that is the pattern, which is why “more is given” to those who “have more”. Light begets light (and darkness begets darkness), but it is always our choice, whether we choose consciously or not, whether we receive (and abide in) the light or not.

Great analysis!  And your sensing was correct.  THANK YOU for explaining, I had misunderstood you.

That makes sense, and assuming both parties have good intentions then the worst that can happen is we end up understanding one another.

But I should probably clarify something: I don't necessarily make the assumption that the light I have received is “what's right” for the other person, be that you or anyone else. 

I think we each come here having signed up for different challenges, different adventures, different lessons, and different roles. Maybe you are majoring in courage with a minor in wisdom. And maybe I am majoring in forgiveness with a minor in patience. So if somebody cuts in front of us at the line in the supermarket, you and I may be supposed to have very different responses, yet both of us being true to who and what we are.

Maybe this person's role is to be obedient, and that person's role is to challenge things that don't make sense.  Maybe one person is a warrior, and another is a peacemaker.  And maybe we are all (every single one of us) parts of the Body of Christ. 

Anyway that's the paradigm I try to live up to.

So you were serious about your conversations with Enoch?

I don't have any ideas for Church-wide Sunday school classes, at least not yet.

I must have misunderstood your question about where to go when one has learned everything there is to know on the Church. Sorry. 

Enoch awaits.

Edited July 14, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[manol]

12 minutes ago, Obehave said:

I would say you don't understand how someone becomes a member of the body of Christ. That you haven't seen the light on that issue. If I explained you might see and still not accept or you could accept what you saw and not do anything about it.

I would very much like to hear your explanation.  Thanks for offering.

Edited July 14, 2022 by manol

[manol]

Thank you Obehave for your reply.

14 minutes ago, Obehave said:

Members of the true church of Jesus Christ are the only people in the body of Jesus Christ, aside from Jesus himself. The way to become a member of the true church of Jesus Christ is through an authorized baptism administered by his church...

You and I draw very different sized circles.  I understand drawing a circle which only includes those who are members of one's church.  For half my life that's what my circle looked like.  I draw a much bigger circle now.

14 minutes ago, Obehave said:

If you see now with the light you need to see this is true then you now know what you need to know to join us. All you need to do now is to believe and to be baptized. If you don't believe you will likely not join us 

I appreciate the invitation.  My understanding is that you believe you have just offered me salvation, and I appreciate that.  You are a good man, and you walk your walk. 

And I choose to walk mine.

[manol]

40 minutes ago, Obehave said:

The circle of what the body of Christ is can be no more than what it actually is. It could be more with you and other people in it but as of now you're not in it and I won't pretend that you are. No insult intended. It is what it is.

I appreciate you speaking your mind, and I do not take it as an insult at all. 

And now I'd like to offer you something.  I'd like to offer you the opportunity to learn something you may not yet be aware of by paying attention to how you feel.

You cannot be in the light, in the Spirit, in the pure love of Christ, while you are simultaneously seeing someone else in condemnation.  What you feel towards someone else YOU experience.  What you do unto others is done unto you.  We are all THAT connected!  The reason Jesus said "judge not, that ye be not judged" is because there is a price tag attached to judging another person:  Doing so lowers YOUR spiritual energy level correspondingly!  So if you feel that my choice to not accept your invitation places me under condemnation, that is what I'm talking about.  Notice how you cannot hold me in condemnation and simultaneously be filled with the Spirit. 

So my brother, here is what I ask of you:  Go ahead and disagree with me!  Absolutely!  But do not see me through the eyes of condemnation because that takes a toll YOU.  What you put out comes back to you, and I do not want any of the dark energy of condemnation coming back to you.  So, if you're not doing this already (and maybe you are!), consider saying to yourself something like:

"I'm sure manol is making a mistake, but it is not my job to judge or condemn him for it.  So I choose to see him as a brother whose journey is not yet complete."  

And you can see every person you encounter though the same kind of lens.   

THAT is what I would like to offer you from our little exchange here, if it is not something you already know.

My brother, I wish you that peace which surpasses all understanding. 

Edited July 14, 2022 by manol

[Calm]

27 minutes ago, manol said:

Notice how you cannot hold me in condemnation and simultaneously be filled with the Spirit. 

How does that work with Christ condemning at times though?

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Obehave said:

I would say you don't understand how someone becomes a member of the body of Christ. That you haven't seen the light on that issue. If I explained you might see and still not accept or you could accept what you saw and not do anything about it. The light would only help you to see, not force you to accept what you saw.

Just fyi in training you socially, this was EXACTLY the kind of thing Ahab did; to respond with this attitude of superiority as if you know the only truth, and you have to teach this poor dumb person how to be spiritual.

VERY INSULTING, and people have mentioned this to you before.

Someone has to tell you these things apparently.

We are all adults here, and this is inappropriate behavior and is why you keep getting thrown off the board.  Sorry buddy, but someone has to tell you 

In my opinion, I think @manol is one of the best new posters here and is always polite, something I personally need to learn from him.

But sometimes one has to topple tables, even in the temple.

Edited July 14, 2022 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

50 minutes ago, Calm said:

How does that work with Christ condemning at times though?

Indeed!

[manol]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

How does that work with Christ condemning at times though?

"If I thought scripture was not filtered through the men that wrote it, I would have a very difficult time accepting that God was loving and compassionate."  

Do you remember writing that?  I thought it was great.

I can't explain each and every time Christ is quoted as using condemning language, but I don't think that's the energy he hangs out in.  Maybe he can use condemning language as a tool, and the effect on him is not what it would be on one of us.   But I don't think he's a hypocrite, so I don't think he's telling us to not judge and to forgive without keeping score and to love our enemies and all that stuff when he's actually out there condemning and holding every grudge against us that he possibly can and exacting vengeance and so forth. 

The harsh language is probably effective on a wide range of people, and "wisdom is justified of her children" is essentially saying "the end justifies the means", BUT I do not think judging and/or condemning one another is the right behavior for US to engage in at this stage in our development.  I'm not suggesting wanton permissiveness, but I am suggesting actually following the teachings Jesus gave us on how to perceive and treat one another. 

At the risk of oversimplifying, "God is love" and "perfect love casts out fear".  We have been given plenty of excuses to be in fear, but none of them are good enough.  "The truth will make you free", and fear is what it frees us from. 

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Just fyi in training you socially, this was EXACTLY the kind of thing Ahab did; to respond with this attitude of superiority as if you know the only truth, and you have to teach this poor dumb person how to be spiritual.

Thank you @mfbukowski for your concern, but imo it really is "no harm, no foul".  @Obehave is being true to himself and I can and do respect that.  He is giving me a chance to see how I would react, he is my brother even though it might look more like he is playing the role of sparring partner.   I understand your reaction, but really I'm neither surprised nor insulted by him.  He is my teacher in disguise. 

Edited July 14, 2022 by manol

[Calm]

1 hour ago, manol said:

he's actually out there condemning and holding every grudge against us that he possibly can and exacting vengeance and so forth. 

I don’t see him holding grudges, but he does need to be just as well as merciful to those who accept his mercy (I don’t think it is a benefit for even God to offer mercy to those who don’t desire it, I think that unwanted gifts and blessings would be burdens for a soul that doesn’t want to accept them).

Vengeance from God is likely actually justice in scripture I believe (word meanings change over time like fear of God is more like awe in scripture than terror, these days vengeance is more like destruction than pure justice, no more and no less), which given to a soul that does not want mercy at least allows them to restart with a clean slate, while those who accept God’s mercy are far ahead on their path as if they never stumbled or wandered in the dark for a time through repentance and being able to accept the forgiveness God freely gives to those who truly desire it from him. 

Edited July 14, 2022 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, Obehave said:

Glitch. Duplicate post.

You are forgiven. 3 Hail Marys.

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, Obehave said:

And if you do see you need to be baptized to be in it, you still have the time it will take you to prepare for it. Up to the time when it will be everlastingly too late. It is all up to you to decide what you want to do.

CFR 

It will never be too late. He can choose after death

EVERY knee shall bow

Edited July 14, 2022 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, Obehave said:

You know there will be children of Perdition, don't you? You think they will be bowing their knees? And yes there will come a day when no more work will be done, even after all of the work we have done. There is a deadline 

Helaman 13 should suffice as a reference to what I am talking about.  I recommend that you read the entire chapter, if not the whole book.  Every word.   

There is nothing there about this situation 

Helaman is clearly about Perdition. No, I didn't have to read it.

Different context.  Of all the billions of people who have lived or will live, virtually no one will even qualify except perhaps a person like Cain and Lucifer himself.

After SEEING OUR LORD in his majesty, it is said, with his glory brighter than the sun, and then deny it, WHO would first have that experience of the "Beatific Vision", and then NOT repent and "bow the knee"??

And taking that out of context misrepresenting it as church doctrine to someone learning what we believe?

Edited July 14, 2022 by mfbukowski