The Fall of Adam, Ancient Lie, and Redemption of Zion

[Fether]

2 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Perhaps if Eve had counseled with Adam after being confronted by the snake, they would have come to the conclusion that they did need to wait and discuss this with their Father before acting.

 

THAT would have been an interesting thing to watch. I imagine God would have further explained to them that the law to not partake of the fruit was necessary to one day become like him, but doing so would render them unclean and require them to leave the garden.

[bluebell]

2 minutes ago, Fether said:

THAT would have been an interesting thing to watch. I imagine God would have further explained to them that the law to not partake of the fruit was necessary to one day become like him, but doing so would render them unclean and require them to leave the garden.

Yes, maybe.

It is interesting that, like Nehor said, Lucifer--after watching this scenario play out in other worlds--seemed to believe that getting them to Fall would actually cause the Plan to fail, rather than begin it. 

It makes you wonder, what was happening in the other worlds that was different than what happened in this one?

[The Nehor]

I have a suspicion that most worlds don’t fall at the beginning. Instead they are taught in a Millenial environment and have children. Then eventually when they are ready God tells them to partake of the fruit. Then they face temptation but in a Terrestrial World and much better prepared. It is what those born in the Millenium will go through.

[bluebell]

1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

I have a suspicion that most worlds don’t fall at the beginning. Instead they are taught in a Millenial environment and have children. Then eventually when they are ready God tells them to partake of the fruit. Then they face temptation but in a Terrestrial World and much better prepared. It is what those born in the Millenium will go through.

If God tells them to do it, how would they Fall (since it wouldn't be a transgression)?

[Fether]

14 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Yes, maybe.

It is interesting that, like Nehor said, Lucifer--after watching this scenario play out in other worlds--seemed to believe that getting them to Fall would actually cause the Plan to fail, rather than begin it. 

It makes you wonder, what was happening in the other worlds that was different than what happened in this one?

Lucifer’s actions and reasoning for them have always confused me.

I remember reading a talk(perhaps Bruce R McConkie’s 3 pillars talk? Or maybe a more apocryphal writing from a Leon Skousen?) where they spoke about the fall of Adam and the atonement of Christ as if there was a fear of a failure.

[Obeone]

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

This statement assumes that this world is typical in creation. If it is an abnormality then it gets odd.

This is brilliant observation.

We are taught that there were millions of worlds before this one (Moses 1:33). Yet "among all the workmanship of mine hands there has not been so great wickedness as among thy brethren." (Moses 7:36)

So this place is different from all that were before.

I believe this earth was the first one to fall, and there were millions before it that did not fall.

This is why the devil complains that he is cursed after doing the same thing that has been done before. If the devil was cursed millions of times before for offering forbidden fruit in other worlds, why should he complain now? 

Because in other worlds their Adams rejected his offer, therefore the devil was not cursed there. But here his temptation produced an actual fall, therefore the devil was cursed here for it for the first time.  Hence his complaining. 

This is also why the Savior was born here, and not on other worlds. 

 

Edited June 12, 2022 by Obeone

[The Nehor]

22 minutes ago, bluebell said:

If God tells them to do it, how would they Fall (since it wouldn't be a transgression)?

They wouldn’t. They would gain the knowledge of good and evil without falling. They would be susceptible to temptation though and once they dealt with it and whatever their equivalent to the end of the Millenium is the world becomes exalted with whichever of them pass the test. Hopefully that is most of them. It is likely the vast majority make Terrestrial at least.

[bluebell]

2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

They wouldn’t. They would gain the knowledge of good and evil without falling. They would be susceptible to temptation though and once they dealt with it and whatever their equivalent to the end of the Millenium is the world becomes exalted with whichever of them pass the test. Hopefully that is most of them. It is likely the vast majority make Terrestrial at least.

Is a Savior necessary without the Fall?

[The Nehor]

5 minutes ago, Obeone said:

This is brilliant observation.

We are taught that there were millions of worlds before this one (Moses 1:33). Yet "among all the workmanship of mine hands there has not been so great wickedness as among thy brethren." (Moses 7:36)

So this place is different from all that were before.

I believe this earth was the first one to fall, and there were millions before it that did not fall.

This is why the devil complains that he is cursed after doing the same thing that has been done before. If the devil was cursed millions of times before for offering forbidden fruit in other worlds, why should he complain now? 

Because in other worlds thier Adams rejected his offer, therefore the devil was not cursed there. But here his temptation produced an actual fall, therefore the devil was cursed here for it for the first time.  Hence his complaining. 

This is also why the Savior was born here, and not on other worlds. 

 

Or the devil never went went to those worlds. The devil says he is “doing” what happened elsewhere, not that he did them. Picture this as a satanic lie. They are supposed to partake of the fruit but not until they are fully prepared and commanded. Satan thought this move to add transgression to the partaking would destroy the whole plan. I would argue God wanted this to happen and Adam and Eve agreed to this before coming. They in essence laid down their deserved rulership over the world to make this happen.

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

Is a Savior necessary without the Fall?

I would say No though I think the Savior’s atonement aided those other worlds in many ways. I have only very vague theories in that direction.

[longview]

1 hour ago, Obeone said:

This is why the devil complains that he is cursed after doing the same thing that has been done before. If the devil was cursed millions of times before for offering forbidden fruit in other worlds, why should he complain now? 

Because in other worlds thier Adams rejected his offer, therefore the devil was not cursed there. But here his temptation produced an actual fall, therefore the devil was cursed here for it for the first time.  Hence his complaining.

My understanding from the Endowment session is that Lucifer actually did give the "fruit of the tree" to them (the Adams of ALL the other worlds).  This is affirmed by the pointed question Heavenly Father asked of Lucifer.  Therefore ALL of them did transgress the prohibition of the fruit of the tree. All did fall.

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

Yes, maybe.

It is interesting that, like Nehor said, Lucifer--after watching this scenario play out in other worlds--seemed to believe that getting them to Fall would actually cause the Plan to fail, rather than begin it. 

It makes you wonder, what was happening in the other worlds that was different than what happened in this one?

As has been stated earlier in the thread, this Earth is the only planet in which the Savior performed the Atonement.  I suppose this Earth is host to the most wicked spirits (that still kept the First Estate) and the most righteous spirits, both from the Pre-Existence.  The Atonement not only is applicable to this Earth but is very much applicable to all the other worlds (even though they did NOT have the Savior be physically born into their respective worlds).  This is probably the only difference.

I am wondering if this Earth (with its special status of having the Savior be born into it) was held to be the last so as to allow Lucifer to complete his work of "subversion" of all other worlds before he finally was condemned in this last world.  In order for all the spirits from the pre-existence (the First Estate) to be able to participate in the Second Estate.  Which requires a Fall to be initiated.  Which is necessary for the Plan of Happiness to actually become operative.  So crucial for having mortal experiences that help them to become like Heavenly Father.

[Obeone]

7 hours ago, CV75 said:

by continuing to steadily progress in a paradisiacal state), they or their posterity would still make choices that would undermine Zion and more importantly require a Savior.

I agree with you. You need the Savior in any world. No one who commits an error, however small, can be saved on his own merit, no matter what world he is in: Celestial, Terrestrial, or Telestial. All need the Savior.

Edited June 12, 2022 by Obeone

[Obeone]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

It seems like, before we could make any conclusions about the use of "would" that we would need to know what the original word was to really judge what the original was trying to say. Since "would" is a translation and not all translations are straight across from one language to the other.

That is true, however, we have a perfect translation into English here. (Urim & Thummim) Almost a letter perfect translation. That should count for something. 

[Obeone]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

Perhaps if Eve had counseled with Adam after being confronted by the snake, they would have come to the conclusion that they did need to wait and discuss this with their Father before acting.

 

Yes! Very good conclusion. A general lesson here: If you see Satan going around and talking to people, don't leave your wife unattended, or you will be in a world of hurt! Literally. 

[Obeone]

4 hours ago, Fether said:

THAT would have been an interesting thing to watch. I imagine God would have further explained to them that the law to not partake of the fruit was necessary to one day become like him, but doing so would render them unclean and require them to leave the garden.

I disagree. That presupposes a self-contradictory God, which is no God at all. 

[Obeone]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

It makes you wonder, what was happening in the other worlds that was different than what happened in this one?

Yes! I covered that here. Good point. 

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Obeone said:

Because in other worlds thier Adams rejected his offer, therefore the devil was not cursed there. But here his temptation produced an actual fall, therefore the devil was cursed here for it for the first time.  Hence his complaining. 

 

But that puts the spiritual consequences of someone’s behaviour on to a different person rather than holding the person accountable for the behaviours himself.  That doesn’t seem like it would happen in a world that wasn’t fallen already.  The devil being cursed for what he did right or wrong is just, not him being cursed for what someone else chose.

[Obeone]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I have a suspicion that most worlds don’t fall at the beginning. Instead they are taught in a Millenial environment and have children. Then eventually when they are ready God tells them to partake of the fruit. Then they face temptation but in a Terrestrial World and much better prepared. It is what those born in the Millenium will go through.

I agree. One correction though: temptation existed in the Garden of Eden BEFORE they ever partook of the fruit. 

[Calm]

13 minutes ago, Obeone said:

That is true, however, we have a perfect translation into English here. (Urim & Thummim) Almost a letter perfect translation. That should count for something. 

Where does it say this?

[Obeone]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

If God tells them to do it, how would they Fall (since it wouldn't be a transgression)?

You are still working under assumption that the fall was necessary. It was not.

Now, to make sure we speak the same language:

Necessary here means:

1. God commanded it.
2. It is your duty to do it.
3. You will be blessed if you do it, and 
4. You will be cursed if you do not.

That's what "necessary" means here. 

[Obeone]

22 minutes ago, Calm said:

But that puts the spiritual consequences of someone’s behaviour on to a different person rather than holding the person accountable for the behaviours himself.  That doesn’t seem like it would happen in a world that wasn’t fallen already.  The devil being cursed for what he did right or wrong is just, not him being cursed for what someone else chose.

I see your point. I guess God waited until Lucifer's temptation produced an actual fall to curse him, so that he would not have the excuse of "temptation was necessary," because temptation indeed was necessary, but yielding to the temptation was not. 

When Adam actually yielded to the temptation, Lucifer's crime was obvious, sealed up and required upon Lucifer's head.

Seems reasonable to me.  

[Obeone]

27 minutes ago, Calm said:

Where does it say this?

"Joseph Smith used it in translating the Book of Mormon and in obtaining other revelations."

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bd/urim-and-thummim?lang=eng

[webbles]

52 minutes ago, Obeone said:

That is true, however, we have a perfect translation into English here. (Urim & Thummim) Almost a letter perfect translation. That should count for something. 

We don't know if we have a "letter perfect translation".  If the Urim & Thummim or seer stone actually displayed the text for him to read, then we still have the problem that he was reading it and the scribe had to correctly hear it before writing it down.  The use of "would" vs "could" is something that a scribe could easily make a mistake.  We know that the scribes made similar mistakes.  Another possibility were a mistake can be entered is when Oliver Cowdery copied from the original manuscript to the printer's manuscript.  He could have easily used "would" instead of "could".  This is also a type of mistake that we know happened.  We don't have the original manuscript for 2 Nephi 2, so we can't tell for certain what the scribe heard or what Oliver Cowdery was copying.  The printer's manuscript has "would".

But it could also be that Joseph Smith wasn't given a word for word translation of the Book of Mormon and instead had to ponder it in his mind and come up with the best way to phrase it.  If that is true, then maybe Joseph used "would" when we would normally use "could" in that place.

[Obeone]

2 minutes ago, webbles said:

We don't know if we have a "letter perfect translation".  If the Urim & Thummim or seer stone actually displayed the text for him to read, then we still have the problem that he was reading it and the scribe had to correctly hear it before writing it down.  The use of "would" vs "could" is something that a scribe could easily make a mistake.  We know that the scribes made similar mistakes.  Another possibility were a mistake can be entered is when Oliver Cowdery copied from the original manuscript to the printer's manuscript.  He could have easily used "would" instead of "could".  This is also a type of mistake that we know happened.  We don't have the original manuscript for 2 Nephi 2, so we can't tell for certain what the scribe heard or what Oliver Cowdery was copying.  The printer's manuscript has "would".

But it could also be that Joseph Smith wasn't given a word for word translation of the Book of Mormon and instead had to ponder it in his mind and come up with the best way to phrase it.  If that is true, then maybe Joseph used "would" when we would normally use "could" in that place.

I use the entirety of the revealed word of God as my context here. It is very obvious from that context that:

1. God does not contradict Himself, and 
2. does not give impossible commandments.

Therefore the use of the word "could" here would make the scripture a lie. And fortunately we see "would" there. So all is well  

[CV75]

59 minutes ago, Obeone said:

Yes! I covered that here. Good point. 

A fall, or failure of some sort, even if only anticipated, is always a necessary (an inevitable) part of progress for those who have not attained the fulness of the stature of Christ: those who do not wish to progress can avoid it by staying where they are, which is actually a retrograde relative to God’s design. That the Fall may have come by another way, or taken on a different appearance relative to other, prior worlds makes no difference since the principle is the same. It is also the same principle irrespective of how many worlds, Divine Councils creating them, or Sons leading the process of creation and redemption, past present or future (or rebellious angels, for that matter).

The serpent / Lucifer was not punished for tempting Adam and Eve, or for their transgression, but for his own rebellious action. He did something based on his own experience, observation and assumption, not knowing the mind of God. He may have pridefully presumed that after so much time and so many worlds, God would blink and he could grab an active role in the inevitable failure of Eden.