Satan Doesn't Care If He Gets Caught Lying

[dougtheavenger]

Satan is the author of all lies. He lies with a purpose in mind. He doesn't need everyone to believe his lies. He doesn't need anyone to believe his lies forever or their whole lives. He just needs some people to believe his lies long enough for some critical time to pass. To be deceived by Satan is to lose some vital opportunity. Once you learn the truth, it may be too late.

[dougtheavenger]

Case in point: Ugo Perego completed DNA testing that proved beyond any reasonable doubt that Joseph Smith was not the father of several boys that various enemies of the church claimed were his biological sons. Neither these enemies of then Church nor Satan are embarrassed by this revealed truth. Nor does it make them pause in their lying.

1.     Moroni Llewellyn Pratt was not the son of Joseph Smith, Jr. DNA research in 2005 confirmed Mary Ann Frost Pratt's son Moroni, born 7 December 1844, was the son of Parley P. Pratt.[1]

2.     Zebulon Jacobs was not the son of Joseph Smith, Jr. DNA research in 2005 confirmed Zina Diantha Huntington Jacobs's son Zebulon was the son of Henry Bailey Jacobs.[2]

3.     Oliver Buell was not the son of Joseph Smith, Jr. DNA research in 2007 confirmed Presendia Huntington Buell’s son Oliver, born sometime in 1838-1839, was the son of Norman Buell.[3]

4.     Mosiah Hancock was not the son of Joseph Smith, Jr. DNA research in 2007 confirmed Clarissa Hancock's son Mosiah, born 9 April 1834, was the son of Levi Hancock.[4]

5.     John Reed Hancock was not the son of Joseph Smith, Jr. DNA research in 2011 confirmed Clarissa Hancock's son John Reed Hancock, was the son of Levi Hancock.[5]

 

---

[1] Deseret News, 2007

[2] Perego, Myers and Woodward, 2005.

[3] DNA Tests rule out 2 as Smith descendants, Deseret News Nov. 10, 2007. Ugo A. Perego, Jayne E. Ekins, and Scott R. Woodward, "Resolving the Paternities of Oliver N. Buell and Mosiah L. Hancock through DNA," JJHWA, 133

[4] DNA Tests rule out 2 as Smith descendants, Deseret News Nov. 10, 2007. Ugo A. Perego, Jayne E. Ekins, and Scott R. Woodward, "Resolving the Paternities of Oliver N. Buell and Mosiah L. Hancock through DNA," JJHWA, 133

[5] Deseret News “DNA solves a Joseph Smith mystery” Michael De Groote, July 9, 2011

[The Nehor]

Curses. I believed they were biological children of Joseph Smith and it cost me my family, my career, my house, my self-respect, and my carefully curated Funko pop collection.

If only I had not fallen for the wiles of Satan…….

[dougtheavenger]

4 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Curses. I believed they were biological children of Joseph Smith and it cost me my family, my career, my house, my self-respect, and my carefully curated Funko pop collection.

If only I had not fallen for the wiles of Satan…….

Not to mention you will be thrust down to Hell.... not pushed .... not shoved .... THRUST

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, dougtheavenger said:

Not to mention you will be thrust down to Hell.... not pushed .... not shoved .... THRUST

I prefer this version:

Wo unto the liar for he be THRUST…..not peacefully prodded, not passively persuaded, not gently led… but THRUST down to HELL!

[SeekingUnderstanding]

6 hours ago, dougtheavenger said:

Case in point: Ugo Perego completed DNA testing that proved beyond any reasonable doubt that Joseph Smith was not the father of several boys that various enemies of the church claimed were his biological sons. Neither these enemies of then Church nor Satan are embarrassed by this revealed truth. Nor does it make them pause in their lying.

1.     Moroni Llewellyn Pratt was not the son of Joseph Smith, Jr. DNA research in 2005 confirmed Mary Ann Frost Pratt's son Moroni, born 7 December 1844, was the son of Parley P. Pratt.[1]

2.     Zebulon Jacobs was not the son of Joseph Smith, Jr. DNA research in 2005 confirmed Zina Diantha Huntington Jacobs's son Zebulon was the son of Henry Bailey Jacobs.[2]

3.     Oliver Buell was not the son of Joseph Smith, Jr. DNA research in 2007 confirmed Presendia Huntington Buell’s son Oliver, born sometime in 1838-1839, was the son of Norman Buell.[3]

4.     Mosiah Hancock was not the son of Joseph Smith, Jr. DNA research in 2007 confirmed Clarissa Hancock's son Mosiah, born 9 April 1834, was the son of Levi Hancock.[4]

5.     John Reed Hancock was not the son of Joseph Smith, Jr. DNA research in 2011 confirmed Clarissa Hancock's son John Reed Hancock, was the son of Levi Hancock.[5]

 

---

[1] Deseret News, 2007

[2] Perego, Myers and Woodward, 2005.

[3] DNA Tests rule out 2 as Smith descendants, Deseret News Nov. 10, 2007. Ugo A. Perego, Jayne E. Ekins, and Scott R. Woodward, "Resolving the Paternities of Oliver N. Buell and Mosiah L. Hancock through DNA," JJHWA, 133

[4] DNA Tests rule out 2 as Smith descendants, Deseret News Nov. 10, 2007. Ugo A. Perego, Jayne E. Ekins, and Scott R. Woodward, "Resolving the Paternities of Oliver N. Buell and Mosiah L. Hancock through DNA," JJHWA, 133

[5] Deseret News “DNA solves a Joseph Smith mystery” Michael De Groote, July 9, 2011

Why would it be bad if Joseph Smith had children with his wives? Isn’t that one of the key points (righteous seed and all that)?

Edited January 5, 2022 by SeekingUnderstanding

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Why would it be bad if Joseph Smith had children with his wives? Isn’t that one of the key points (righteous seed and all that)?

There has always been the question of how those polygamous relationships actually worked.  Yes, Joseph was sealed to a number of women (conveniently listed by Fawn Brodie), and he supposedly had children by some of them.  However, even though Joseph was fertile the entire time (continually having children by his wife Emma), we have yet to find one offspring of his from those sealings.  That leads to the strong possibility that we have misunderstood the nature of those sealings, which may not have been consummated.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

4 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

There has always been the question of how those polygamous relationships actually worked.  Yes, Joseph was sealed to a number of women (conveniently listed by Fawn Brodie), and he supposedly had children by some of them.  However, even though Joseph was fertile the entire time (continually having children by his wife Emma), we have yet to find one offspring of his from those sealings.  That leads to the strong possibility that we have misunderstood the nature of those sealings, which may not have been consummated.

So Satan wanted us to think that Joseph instituted polygamy to raise righteous seed, fooled the Brighamites, and the modern church is in apostasy?

 

Like I’m asking what Satan’s angle is here. As an agent of Satan I feel out of the loop. 

Edited January 5, 2022 by SeekingUnderstanding

[bluebell]

1 minute ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Like I’m asking what Satan’s angle here. As an agent of Satan I feel out of the loop. 

Sounds like maybe you missed a meeting.

[carbon dioxide]

10 hours ago, dougtheavenger said:

Satan is the author of all lies. He lies with a purpose in mind. He doesn't need everyone to believe his lies. He doesn't need anyone to believe his lies forever or their whole lives. He just needs some people to believe his lies long enough for some critical time to pass. To be deceived by Satan is to lose some vital opportunity. Once you learn the truth, it may be too late.

It is the classic throw the spaghetti noodles against the wall and if some of the noodles stick you have done your job.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

22 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

It is the classic throw the spaghetti noodles against the wall and if some of the noodles stick you have done your job.

Are you saying that if Joseph Smith had children with his wives that would be problematic for Mormonism?

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

So Satan wanted us to think that Joseph instituted polygamy to raise righteous seed, fooled the Brighamites, and the modern church is in apostasy?

Like I’m asking what Satan’s angle is here. As an agent of Satan I feel out of the loop. 

Exactly.  Not only Satan, but most anti-Mormons and pro-Mormons have been left in the lurch by modern research which shows that much of what we have traditionally believed was not only wrong, but ridiculously wrong.  Take the conclusion of Skousen & Carmack that the Book of Mormon is in a form of English which was already extinct long before the 19th century.  That is not only a surprise, but it serves no anti- or pro-Mormon agenda.  Even Satan cannot get a handle on that. 

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Are you saying that if Joseph Smith had children with his wives that would be problematic for Mormonism?

At least it might make some worldly sense.  As it stands, however, it leaves everyone feeling confused.

[The Nehor]

It seems OP’s point is that the devil will keep on lying after the lies have been disproved. The thing is, the idea that Joseph had children by his plural wives wasn’t a lie. It was a theory that made sense Disproving it made no one a liar because no one really knew. Except maybe Satan but I think his knowledge is limited so who knows?

[dougtheavenger]

7 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

There has always been the question of how those polygamous relationships actually worked.  Yes, Joseph was sealed to a number of women (conveniently listed by Fawn Brodie), and he supposedly had children by some of them.  However, even though Joseph was fertile the entire time (continually having children by his wife Emma), we have yet to find one offspring of his from those sealings.  That leads to the strong possibility that we have misunderstood the nature of those sealings, which may not have been consummated.

I suggest we stick with the hard facts. It was a pack of lies. Satan is the author of all lies. Satan lies for a reason. He's got a plan.

Edited January 6, 2022 by dougtheavenger

[dougtheavenger]

7 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Are you saying that if Joseph Smith had children with his wives that would be problematic for Mormonism?

If Joseph Smith had children with the wives of other men while they were married to other men that would be problematic for Joseph Smith. David had sex with another man's (Uriah) wife and that was problematic for him.

[ttribe]

10 minutes ago, dougtheavenger said:

I suggest we stick with the hard facts. It was a pack of lies. Satan is the author of all lies. Satan lies for a reason. He's got a plan.

Oh, boy, here we go!  We've got ourselves a Joseph Smith practiced polygamy denier!

[dougtheavenger]

Ugo Perego's research was just one example of falsehoods proved to be false. 

Satan will promote the most ludicrous falsehoods and fools will believe them. It is ludicrous to believe that we can get a better understanding of what went on in the bedrooms of Navou 180 years ago by means of what people said and was recorded. This is why crimes have a statute of limitations and why written statements are usually not accepted as evidence without live testimony to corroborate it. What people say is often not faithfully recorded. What they say can often be understood more than one way. Use the rules of evidence. For example, in England in the 1950s a young mentally disabled man was sentenced to death because his statement, "Let him have it" was interpreted by a court not literally which was to hand over a gun to a police officer by in the vernacular which was to shoot the police officer. People are often most sure of what is false.

- case of Derek Bentley 1953

Edited January 6, 2022 by dougtheavenger

[The Nehor]

33 minutes ago, dougtheavenger said:

I suggest we stick with the hard facts. It was a pack of lies. Satan is the author of all lies. Satan lies for a reason. He's got a plan.

Is it as dumb as most of the rest of his plans?

[dougtheavenger]

20 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Oh, boy, here we go!  We've got ourselves a Joseph Smith practiced polygamy denier!

This statement of yours is yet another falsehood. I have no problem with polygamy. I have a problem with lies. No statement by me in this thread criticizes polygamy or challenges it's approval by God.

[dougtheavenger]

2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Is it as dumb as most of the rest of his plans?

Satan is stupid? Not so sure about that. He was a big wheel in our pre-mortal existence. 

[ttribe]

3 minutes ago, dougtheavenger said:

This statement of yours is yet another falsehood. I have no problem with polygamy. I have a problem with lies. No statement by me in this thread criticizes polygamy or challenges it's approval by God.

Well, then, please clarify - do you believe Joseph Smith practiced polygamy? Do you believe the Church's account according to its Gospel Topics Essay that Joseph Smith had thirty or more wives?

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, dougtheavenger said:

Satan is stupid? Not so sure about that. He was a big wheel in our pre-mortal existence. 

The glory of God is intelligence. How much of God’s glory does Satan have?

Satan is not that bright. Have we seen stunning innovations in sinning over the centuries or just rehashes of the same old thing. I suspect satan is old and he knows a lot but he is not an innovator and isn’t coming up with fresh new ideas. Fortunately for him humanity still falls for the same old traps over and over so I suppose it works out.

Plus it not commonly known but before the great council in heaven I came up with this brilliant alternative plan where we would ensure no soul would be lost. Unfortunately I wasn’t much of an orator so I asked Lucifer to present the plan for me. That backstabbing weasel presented it all right but he also claimed it was his idea. Jerk. So when the conflict started I joined Christ’s side…..mostly out of spite.

I also floated the little known third plan that involved eating the forbidden fruit and then eating the tree of life immediately afterwards so everyone would live forever in sin. I only got one supporter for it though and Lilith can be downright scary at the best of times so I couldn’t see her bringing in the converts so I dropped it.

So I was the big wheel behind that plan.

[Robert F. Smith]

9 hours ago, dougtheavenger said:

If Joseph Smith had children with the wives of other men while they were married to other men that would be problematic for Joseph Smith. David had sex with another man's (Uriah) wife and that was problematic for him.

Yes, and the prophet Nathan came to David and openly condemned him.  Nobody blamed Satan on that occasion.

[Robert F. Smith]

9 hours ago, dougtheavenger said:

I suggest we stick with the hard facts. It was a pack of lies. Satan is the author of all lies. Satan lies for a reason. He's got a plan.

Satan may be the metaphorical "father of all lies," but he is certainly not the "author of all lies."  The rest of us are quite capable of crafting our own lies.  We have agency and are coeternal with God.