Lesson 5 - The Infinite Atonement of Jesus Christ

[marineland]

I'm into lesson 5 of the manual (Religion 275) now and have some questions about things
mentioned on these pages.

Page 22 – And the mercy of the Atonement extends not only to an infinite number of 
people, but also to an infinite number of worlds created by Him.

What kind of interaction did these billions of other people have with an extraterrestrial 
Saviour?  Did similar events, like the destruction of the cities mentioned in the Book of 
Mormon at the crucifixion of Christ, also happen on all these other infinite number of 
worlds?

Page 23 - Remind students that in addition to delivering all mankind from the physical 
and spiritual death caused by the Fall, Jesus Christ can deliver us from the spiritual 
death caused by our own sins.

Since all humans from birth suffer spiritual death as a result of Adam’s fall, what further 
separation from God is caused by this second spiritual death?

Page 24 – Explain that the Book of Mormon helps us understand how the Atonement of Jesus 
Christ saves little children and people who have died without receiving the gospel or 
being baptized.

Suppose you have a person of Buddhist faith.  He was never baptized, never received the 
gospel, and then he died.  What does salvation mean in this Book of Mormon context?
And what specific passage of the Book of Mormon is this a reference to?

Tony

[CV75]

5 hours ago, marineland said:

I'm into lesson 5 of the manual (Religion 275) now and have some questions about things
mentioned on these pages.

Page 22 – And the mercy of the Atonement extends not only to an infinite number of 
people, but also to an infinite number of worlds created by Him.

What kind of interaction did these billions of other people have with an extraterrestrial 
Saviour?  Did similar events, like the destruction of the cities mentioned in the Book of 
Mormon at the crucifixion of Christ, also happen on all these other infinite number of 
worlds?

Page 23 - Remind students that in addition to delivering all mankind from the physical 
and spiritual death caused by the Fall, Jesus Christ can deliver us from the spiritual 
death caused by our own sins.

Since all humans from birth suffer spiritual death as a result of Adam’s fall, what further 
separation from God is caused by this second spiritual death?

Page 24 – Explain that the Book of Mormon helps us understand how the Atonement of Jesus 
Christ saves little children and people who have died without receiving the gospel or 
being baptized.

Suppose you have a person of Buddhist faith.  He was never baptized, never received the 
gospel, and then he died.  What does salvation mean in this Book of Mormon context?
And what specific passage of the Book of Mormon is this a reference to?

Tony

p. 22: We do not have those details, but I surmise there were prophets (including those like the brother of Jared), prophecies and visits similar to those found in the Book of Mormon, no matter what concept of “world” is involved.

p. 23: This would be the same distinction as that between the fallen conditions we live in and the personal spiritual condition we create with our personal choices, versus the conditions Christ creates by virtue of His Atonement and the choices and grace he avails to us as a result.

p. 24: I recommend you read and pray about the entire Book of Mormon! But see Alma 29: 2 – 8: “Yea, I would declare unto every soul, as with the voice of thunder, repentance and the plan of redemption, that they should repent and come unto our God, that there might not be more sorrow upon all the face of the earth. But behold, … he granteth unto men according to their desire, whether it be unto death or unto life; yea, …he allotteth unto men, yea, decreeth unto them decrees which are unalterable, according to their wills, whether they be unto salvation or unto destruction. Yea, …good and evil have come before all men; he that knoweth not good from evil is blameless; but he that knoweth good and evil, to him it is given according to his desires, whether he desireth good or evil, life or death, joy or remorse of conscience. …For behold, the Lord doth grant unto all nations, of their own nation and tongue, to teach his word, yea, in wisdom, all that he seeth fit that they should have; therefore we see that the Lord doth counsel in wisdom, according to that which is just and true.” The Buddhist knows good and evil according to the word they have been given, which, as with all accountable people, is no less than their desire and will for good or evil according to the word they have been given.

PS Buddhism didn't begin until the people of the Book of Mormon had already settled in the new world for almost 200 years.

Edited December 27, 2021 by CV75

[Freedom]

7 hours ago, marineland said:

I'm into lesson 5 of the manual (Religion 275) now and have some questions about things
mentioned on these pages.

Page 22 – And the mercy of the Atonement extends not only to an infinite number of 
people, but also to an infinite number of worlds created by Him.

What kind of interaction did these billions of other people have with an extraterrestrial 
Saviour?  Did similar events, like the destruction of the cities mentioned in the Book of 
Mormon at the crucifixion of Christ, also happen on all these other infinite number of 
worlds?

Page 23 - Remind students that in addition to delivering all mankind from the physical 
and spiritual death caused by the Fall, Jesus Christ can deliver us from the spiritual 
death caused by our own sins.

Since all humans from birth suffer spiritual death as a result of Adam’s fall, what further 
separation from God is caused by this second spiritual death?

Page 24 – Explain that the Book of Mormon helps us understand how the Atonement of Jesus 
Christ saves little children and people who have died without receiving the gospel or 
being baptized.

Suppose you have a person of Buddhist faith.  He was never baptized, never received the 
gospel, and then he died.  What does salvation mean in this Book of Mormon context?
And what specific passage of the Book of Mormon is this a reference to?

Tony

Regarding other worlds, I think this is an extrapolation and an assumption on the part of the curriculum department. all we know is what pertains to this world so I question whether the atonement of the savior on this earth has anything to do with any other planets. What about trillions of years in the future, does the atonement of 2000 years ago still apply tot hem? to me this is like waying that the earth is the only important planet in all the universe. 

We reject the notion of original sin, but teach that we are only responsible for our own sins. Spiritual death results from our own sins and not from Adams transgressions. Adam fell that men might be, and men are that they might have joy. 2 Nephi 2:25. The fall was necessary to bring about Gods plan. Adam rejoiced when he left the garden. He transgressed, but did not sin. For example, it is against the law to speed, but a police officer can transgress the traffic laws under certain circumstances and not be punished under the law. 

The lesson provides the verse you are looking for regarding dying in ignorance - Mosiah 3:11. How this is satisfied is explained in modern scripture - vicarious work for the dead. If that Buddhist dies without receiving the gospel, then he will have the opportunity to learn about it in the next life, and his ordinances will be done for him in the temple. 

 

[The Nehor]

8 hours ago, marineland said:

I'm into lesson 5 of the manual (Religion 275) now and have some questions about things
mentioned on these pages.

Page 22 – And the mercy of the Atonement extends not only to an infinite number of 
people, but also to an infinite number of worlds created by Him.

What kind of interaction did these billions of other people have with an extraterrestrial 
Saviour?  Did similar events, like the destruction of the cities mentioned in the Book of 
Mormon at the crucifixion of Christ, also happen on all these other infinite number of 
worlds?

Page 23 - Remind students that in addition to delivering all mankind from the physical 
and spiritual death caused by the Fall, Jesus Christ can deliver us from the spiritual 
death caused by our own sins.

Since all humans from birth suffer spiritual death as a result of Adam’s fall, what further 
separation from God is caused by this second spiritual death?

Page 24 – Explain that the Book of Mormon helps us understand how the Atonement of Jesus 
Christ saves little children and people who have died without receiving the gospel or 
being baptized.

Suppose you have a person of Buddhist faith.  He was never baptized, never received the 
gospel, and then he died.  What does salvation mean in this Book of Mormon context?
And what specific passage of the Book of Mormon is this a reference to?

Tony

Page 22: This is guesswork based on some lines from Joseph Smith. I suspect it is true that the atonement had an impact across all of creation and all worlds but not in the sense many believe. I doubt there was a sign of Christ’s death at a specific time on most or all of the worlds.

Page 23: There is a spiritual death from Adam’s Fall but if someone lived a sinless life which is theoretically possible you would not need redemption from your own sins. Sadly we are told only one person pulled off this level of obedience. The redemption from the spiritual death of Adam’s Fall is unconditional. All will return to God’s presence to be judged. The spiritual death from our own sins is not unconditionally revoked.

Page 24: The Book of Mormon is clear that those who do not have the gospel law will be judged without that law. Don’t have time to look those scriptures up at the moment. As to little children read Moroni 8.

 

[Robert F. Smith]

13 hours ago, marineland said:

.......................
Page 22 – And the mercy of the Atonement extends not only to an infinite number of 
people, but also to an infinite number of worlds created by Him.

What kind of interaction did these billions of other people have with an extraterrestrial 
Saviour?  Did similar events, like the destruction of the cities mentioned in the Book of 
Mormon at the crucifixion of Christ, also happen on all these other infinite number of 
worlds?............................

Sounds like someone has been reading Isaac Asimov's Foundation series.

7 hours ago, CV75 said:

p. 22: We do not have those details, but I surmise there were prophets (including those like the brother of Jared), prophecies and visits similar to those found in the Book of Mormon, no matter what concept of “world” is involved..................

God the Father may have created worlds without number.  That does not mean that all of them have only one Savior.  There is a finite group of spirits assigned to this Earth.  An infinite atonement is necessary to cover all possible sins of that finite group.

5 hours ago, Freedom said:

Regarding other worlds, I think this is an extrapolation and an assumption on the part of the curriculum department. all we know is what pertains to this world so I question whether the atonement of the savior on this earth has anything to do with any other planets. What about trillions of years in the future, does the atonement of 2000 years ago still apply tot hem? to me this is like waying that the earth is the only important planet in all the universe. .....................

Correct.  The inclusion of other worlds is unmitigated nonsense.  Someone has not thought this through adequately.

[CV75]

5 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Sounds like someone has been reading Isaac Asimov's Foundation series.

God the Father may have created worlds without number.  That does not mean that all of them have only one Savior.  There is a finite group of spirits assigned to this Earth.  An infinite atonement is necessary to cover all possible sins of that finite group.

Correct.  The inclusion of other worlds is unmitigated nonsense.  Someone has not thought this through adequately.

1993 Elder Nelson was quoted in the lesson in support of these kinds of ideas. I think this suggests that however we conceptualize the cosmos (as did Abraham), it is probably just a working model to support spiritual impressions, and I gather the important intelligence the lesson points to would be our personal application of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Even though I prefer to use the World Turtle. Hence my encouragement to read the entire Book of Mormon.

Edited December 27, 2021 by CV75

[JLHPROF]

6 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

God the Father may have created worlds without number.  That does not mean that all of them have only one Savior.  There is a finite group of spirits assigned to this Earth.  An infinite atonement is necessary to cover all possible sins of that finite group.

Correct.  The inclusion of other worlds is unmitigated nonsense.  Someone has not thought this through adequately.

Brigham agreed - "Every earth has its redeemer, and every earth has its tempter; and every earth, and the people thereof, in their turn and time, receive all that we receive, and pass through all the ordeals that we are passing through."

[JLHPROF]

11 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Page 22: This is guesswork based on some lines from Joseph Smith. I suspect it is true that the atonement had an impact across all of creation and all worlds but not in the sense many believe. I doubt there was a sign of Christ’s death at a specific time on most or all of the worlds.

I think it's a principle, not a person.  It is always a firstborn, a redeemer, a begotten son.  Not necessarily the one born in Bethlehem in Israel on our earth.

Many earths progressed prior to this creation.  And the things done here are those that are done on other worlds.

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

1993 Elder Nelson was quoted in the lesson in support of these kinds of ideas. I think this suggests that however we conceptualize the cosmos (as did Abraham), it is probably just a working model to support spiritual impressions, and I gather the important intelligence the lesson points to would be our personal application of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Even though I prefer to use the World Turtle. Hence my encouragement to read the entire Book of Mormon.

Yeh, turtles all the way down . . . 

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Brigham agreed - "Every earth has its redeemer, and every earth has its tempter; and every earth, and the people thereof, in their turn and time, receive all that we receive, and pass through all the ordeals that we are passing through."

Exactly.  Wouldn't make sense any other way.

Or, as Hugh Nibley put it, in assaying the Gnostic Book of Jeu:

Quote

All the worlds are organized in a common pattern, . . in all the worlds you will find God alone rules but with a presidency of three and a council of twelve.  This is the rule of all worlds.  The repetitions are infinite in number and scope . . . .  As a Yeu becomes a Father, the Father then appoints new Yeus (Jehovahs) for new worlds who in turn become Fathers, etc. (cf. First Jeu 48:8; 50:1-3; 97:25-28; Pistis Sophia I, 91, 94; III, 285, 319, 329-330; IV, 355:15,23, 370:10,19,24).  [See C. Schmidt & V. MacDermot, Books of Jeu (Leiden: Brill, 1978)]

 
This is reminiscent of the Grand Hotel paradox of mathematician David Hilbert:

 

Edited December 27, 2021 by Robert F. Smith

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Exactly.  Wouldn't make sense any other way.

Or, as Hugh Nibley put it, in assaying the Gnostic Book of Jeu:

 
This is reminiscent of the Grand Hotel paradox of mathematician David Hilbert:

 

This allows "world" as used in the scripturas to refer to a concept, a complex of histories on one planet, a complex of planets, etc. I am glad that the OP @marineland interpreted "infinite number" as "billions" (as in, "innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me" -- Moses 1:35). Perhaps Yeu is appointed to only a certain, manageable number of populated planets, allowing more than one that are still numbered unto Him, but more than we can believe.

[Robert F. Smith]

31 minutes ago, CV75 said:

This allows "world" as used in the scripturas to refer to a concept, a complex of histories on one planet, a complex of planets, etc. I am glad that the OP @marineland interpreted "infinite number" as "billions" (as in, "innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me" -- Moses 1:35). Perhaps Yeu is appointed to only a certain, manageable number of populated planets, allowing more than one that are still numbered unto Him, but more than we can believe.

Nope.  Only one planet at a time.

[marineland]

5 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Brigham agreed - "Every earth has its redeemer, and every earth has its tempter; and every earth, and the people thereof, in their turn and time, receive all that we receive, and pass through all the ordeals that we are passing through."

In reference to John 3:16, does this mean Heavenly Father has an infinite number of "only begotten sons" for his
infinitely created worlds but there was only one Council of Heaven where he revealed his plan of salvation?

Edited December 27, 2021 by marineland

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Nope.  Only one planet at a time.

I can do one (maybe innumerably) better: one person at a time!

[CV75]

24 minutes ago, marineland said:

In reference to John 3:16, does this mean Heavenly Father has an infinite number of "only begotten sons" for his
infinitely created worlds but there was only one Council of Heaven where he revealed his plan of salvation?

It depends on how He decides to do things. But how many are there for you, and how many matter to you?

[JLHPROF]

34 minutes ago, marineland said:

In reference to John 3:16, does this mean Heavenly Father has an infinite number of "only begotten sons" for his
infinitely created worlds but there was only one Council of Heaven where he revealed his plan of salvation?

We need a wider perspective.

When speaking of all of existence the council of the Gods wasn't a one time thing.  The "Gods" aren't limited to Heavenly Father, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost.  There isn't just one adversary.  Or one creation, one Eloheim, one Jehovah, one Adam, one Michael, one Eve, one eternity.

The entire pattern has been repeated in countless worlds, all coming into existence, progressing, and at various stages of development.

The people in each role likewise change, switch out, progress.  Nobody, not even our Father in Heaven is stagnant.

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, marineland said:

In reference to John 3:16, does this mean Heavenly Father has an infinite number of "only begotten sons" for his
infinitely created worlds but there was only one Council of Heaven where he revealed his plan of salvation?

Since there is no beginning and will be no end, yes, the potential for an infinity of Only Begottens is there, but there is always the first one for the first planet, with its own Divine Council (with potential for war), and a Presidency of Three.  An eternal pattern, with a set Plan of Salvation -- the only way to godhood and more spirit children and more planets, ad infinitum.

Only one Garden of Eden Temple on each planet, and only one horrific execution of the Son of God (the method can vary), with an infinite variety of cultures on each planet.

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 only one horrific execution of the Son of God (the method can vary), with an infinite variety of cultures on each planet.

Curious why you make this assumption?  Not disagreeing but given how little we know there is the equal possibility of the method being eternally proscribed or of symbolic significance.

[Robert F. Smith]

28 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Curious why you make this assumption?  Not disagreeing but given how little we know there is the equal possibility of the method being eternally proscribed or of symbolic significance.

True.  These are mysteries.  However, I am an anthropologist and so am accustomed to a wide diversity of human lifeways.  As to symbols:  Note how the swastika was once a symbol of good, but became a symbol of deep evil.  Humans are so variegated in their creative and interpretive abilities that I cannot imagine another planet merely being a repeat of this one.

[Robert F. Smith]

8 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

We need a wider perspective.

When speaking of all of existence the council of the Gods wasn't a one time thing.  The "Gods" aren't limited to Heavenly Father, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost.  There isn't just one adversary.  Or one creation, one Eloheim, one Jehovah, one Adam, one Michael, one Eve, one eternity.

The entire pattern has been repeated in countless worlds, all coming into existence, progressing, and at various stages of development.

The people in each role likewise change, switch out, progress.  Nobody, not even our Father in Heaven is stagnant.

Amen, brother !!

[marineland]

20 hours ago, CV75 said:

It depends on how He decides to do things. But how many are there for you, and how many matter to you?

For me, there is only one God in existence.

[JLHPROF]

57 minutes ago, marineland said:

For me, there is only one God in existence.

Trinitarian?

Because that's not our theology.

 

[CV75]

1 hour ago, marineland said:

For me, there is only one God in existence.

I thought from your OP you were only asking about how many worlds / people He has saved, not how many Gods are in existence.

At any rate, all the various concepts that have been shared seem to acknowledge Jesus Christ as their one-and-only personal Savior.

[mfbukowski]

On 12/27/2021 at 5:53 AM, CV75 said:

1993 Elder Nelson was quoted in the lesson in support of these kinds of ideas. I think this suggests that however we conceptualize the cosmos (as did Abraham), it is probably just a working model to support spiritual impressions, and I gather the important intelligence the lesson points to would be our personal application of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Even though I prefer to use the World Turtle. Hence my encouragement to read the entire Book of Mormon.

I simply oppose this idea because it would be too abstract for me to believe as an event which has any personal relevance to my needs.

Imagine the scriptures beginning with

"Long ago, in a galaxy far away..."

and speaking of the Holy Ghost as a Force...

Wait a minute!  That sounds familiar...

[CV75]

3 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I simply oppose this idea because it would be too abstract for me to believe as an event which has any personal relevance to my needs.

Imagine the scriptures beginning with

"Long ago, in a galaxy far away..."

and speaking of the Holy Ghost as a Force...

Wait a minute!  That sounds familiar...

Having adopted the World Turtle as my cosmos, I read the Book of Mormon v-e-e-e-e-r-r-r-y-y-y... sloooo-o-o-owwwwww...

..................................................................................................................................................................................................................ly.y.y.y...y.y....