The Other Covid Thread

[The Nehor]

10 minutes ago, Harry T. Clark said:

1. You assume the vaccines are effective without justification.  This is a disease that has a less than 1% fatality rate.  You are confusing the low numbers with vaccine effectiveness. The vaccines were rushed to market.  The pharma companies demanded, for some reason, to have legal immunity.  If that doesn't raise red flags, it is beyond belief.  If Trump demanded and got immunity from suit for anything occurring on his properties, you would be up in arms and we wouldn't hear the end of it.  Additionally, and more frightening, the FDA is slow walking disclosure of the data used to approve the Pfizer's version (that is still not being used in the US).  No, your responses are not logic and science, sir. 

2. If the pharma captured/supported MSM and "establishment" won't report something, won't acknowledge something, and distorts and manipulates to support the vaccine narrative, then alternatives are absent.  The solution is to look at all scientists and not to censor.  There are frontline doctors who have had success with early treatment regimens and these have continually been attacked for the vaccine narrative sake, that you blindly follow for some reason.

3. You are the one who creates fear.  This was always an overhyped disease where there was a deliberate push to confuse death with or from covid.  There was a deliberate push to have us look at positive tests while not looking at the people who were actually sick.  You supported this narrative, for some reason, since the beginning.

4.  It is healthy to fear at times and it is unhealthy to be too fearful as it lowers cognitive abilities, unnecessarily putting people in a constant state of fight or flight.  This is one of those times where it is unhealthy to constantly be in fear of a disease that never had more than a 1% mortality rate.

1. Vaccines are effective. They didn’t demand legal immunity. They got it because ever since the 80s vaccine companies have had immunity because antivaxxers back then were clogging the courts with frivolous lawsuits with no merit and the cost of defending against them was making vaccine producers start to shut down. So the government took liability. You can be compensated for adverse reactions to a vaccine. I have explained this multiple times but you keep bringing it up as if it is new information. Why?

2. I can guess which treatment you are referring to and no, they were all looked at. There were studies. Lots of them. They were not found to be effective. You don’t cover up potential treatment regimens by running dozens of studies and publishing them publicly.

3. Nope. There is not a massive conspiracy involving every large hospital chain down to every small-town coroner and everything in between on a worldwide scale trying to drum up Covid numbers for the Illuminati or whatever conspiracy you think is behind a conspiracy involving literally millions of people being in on it and no one has exposed it except for internet cranks who post rambling and incoherent screeds on it.

4. A 1% mortality rate is a big deal. I am not sure why you think otherwise. Would 10% cause you to take measures? 20%? 50%? Note that I am not at all conceding that your under 1% rate is accurate. There are four ways I know of calculating different percentages and all of them have been called mortality or fatality rate and all of them are flawed, most of them because we don’t know the exact number of deaths and the exact number of cases. Presumably the million-strong cabal of immoral administrators, morticians, and coroners are manufacturing this like you suggested before. Fear is good if it awakens someone to a current crisis. Then you replace it with measured caution.

 

Those who refuse to give in to fear:

All of this has happened before……….

[The Nehor]

12 minutes ago, John Madden said:

Your avatar image looks like a butthole. 

I am going to tell him you said that.

And I think….he’ll be very hurt.

Then I will give him a yogurt drop and he won’t care.

[Chum]

30 minutes ago, Danzo said:

The organ failure happend after the shot.

The final stage of organ failure happened after the shot.

31 minutes ago, Danzo said:

The organ failure caused the sepsis. The sepsis happened a few days later as a result of the organ failure.

This can't be true, at least not as stated. Sepsis is a reaction to infection and can cause organ failure. Types of infections that cause Sepsis are viruses, bacteria and fungi. (The Covid vaccine is none of these things.)

36 minutes ago, Danzo said:

He was admitted to the hospital a few hours after the shot.

Understood. Covid can't initiate sepsis tho. Sepsis requires virus, bacteria or fungi. 

If one wanted to consider the super-obscure possibility that one of those three was coincidentally introduced at the same moment as the vaccine - well that doesn't fit in the time allowed for a Sepsis-to-death transition.

44 minutes ago, Danzo said:

The sequence of events is well established and documented.

I believe that and I believe you are arguing from a place of sincerity.  I also believe you are being straight with us about details - which I appreciate.

[BRMC]

14 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

 

4. A 1% mortality rate is a big deal. I am not sure why you think otherwise. Would 10% cause you to take measures? 20%? 50%? Note that I am not at all conceding that your under 1% rate is accurate. There are four ways I know of calculating different percentages and all of them have been called mortality or fatality rate and all of them are flawed, most of them because we don’t know the exact number of deaths and the exact number of cases. Presumably the million-strong cabal of immoral administrators, morticians, and coroners are manufacturing this like you suggested before. Fear is good if it awakens someone to a current crisis. Then you replace it with measured caution.

 

See, this is where a broad brush shouldn't be used.  

1.  There is a @1% mortality rate across the board, but that board is curved.  The mortality rate for people under 10 isn't the same as people over 80.  The mortality rate for people under 20 isn't the same for people over 70.   

2.  Cardiac events and clotting are associated with the vaccines.  

3.  The severity of cardiac events and COVID are not the same across the board, either.

Given these facts, the risk/reward varies with age and health.   People make their own decisions based on the risk/reward balance.

Edited January 1, 2022 by BRMC

[The Nehor]

4 minutes ago, BRMC said:

See, this is where a broad brush shouldn't be used.  

1.  There is a @1% mortality rate across the board, but that board is curved.  The mortality rate for people under 10 isn't the same as people over 80.  The mortality rate for people under 20 isn't the same for people over 70.   

2.  Cardiac events and clotting are associated with the vaccines.  

3.  The severity of cardiac events and COVID are not the same across the board, either.

Given these facts, the risk/reward varies with age and health.   People make their own decisions based on the risk/reward balance.

1. Thank you, Captain Obvious.

2. Yes, though rare.

3. Yes, they are both generally less in younger people and Covid has a higher chance of causing cardiac damage than the vaccine across all age groups. It is also worth noting that the cardiac damage from the vaccine heals. It is a good warning so those with preexisting and ongoing cardiac problems can have their doctor monitor them to ensure there are no problems. If they catch Covid the odds of death are pretty high.

The risk/reward balance is blindingly obvious in virtually all cases.

[BRMC]

Just now, The Nehor said:

 

The risk/reward balance is blindingly obvious in virtually all cases.

And yet people are still crying for everyone to get the vaccine.......

[John Madden]

40 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

1. Thank you, Captain Obvious.

2. Yes, though rare.

3. Yes, they are both generally less in younger people and Covid has a higher chance of causing cardiac damage than the vaccine across all age groups. It is also worth noting that the cardiac damage from the vaccine heals. It is a good warning so those with preexisting and ongoing cardiac problems can have their doctor monitor them to ensure there are no problems. If they catch Covid the odds of death are pretty high.

The risk/reward balance is blindingly obvious in virtually all cases.

Is the shame and guilt you feel for not getting the vaccine and booster sooner than you did stronger than the pride you feel for getting it before someone else? Sounds like a lot of people died because you were not vaccinated or boosted for a minute or something but now you probably saved a lot of lives because you got it. You may have saved my life. You probably saved Russel M. Nelson's life too. That must make you feel so good. But if you got the vaccine sooner maybe the people that died would still be alive and that must tear you up with guilt and shame. 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Danzo said:

The cause of death was sepsis due to the shutdown of the digestive system as part of the multiple organ failure. As far as I know no autopsy was performed.

Was he throwing up etc?

[pogi]

2 hours ago, BRMC said:

And yet people are still crying for everyone to get the vaccine.......

Do you genuinely believe the vaccine is more dangerous than Covid?

[BRMC]

7 minutes ago, pogi said:

Do you genuinely believe the vaccine is more dangerous than Covid?

As I stated above, the dangers of COVID vary between demographics.  For some demographics the danger from COVID is virtually non-existent.   The vaccine carries risk of injury as well.   For a demographic in which the danger of COVID is virtually non-existent, why would they risk a vaccine who's dangers are still being revealed?

[Danzo]

2 hours ago, Chum said:

The final stage of organ failure happened after the shot.

This can't be true, at least not as stated. Sepsis is a reaction to infection and can cause organ failure. Types of infections that cause Sepsis are viruses, bacteria and fungi. (The Covid vaccine is none of these things.)

Understood. Covid can't initiate sepsis tho. Sepsis requires virus, bacteria or fungi. 

If one wanted to consider the super-obscure possibility that one of those three was coincidentally introduced at the same moment as the vaccine - well that doesn't fit in the time allowed for a Sepsis-to-death transition.

I believe that and I believe you are arguing from a place of sincerity.  I also believe you are being straight with us about details - which I appreciate.

Sepsis occurred because the colon ruptured.

The colon ruptured because the GI System shut down.

The GI system shut down as part of a multi system organ failure that included the GI system, the pancreas and other systems that I can't recall at this moment.  This organ failure caused him to be admitted to the hospital where the hospital tried to restart the systems that shut down. From what I have been told they were successful in getting some of his systems restarted but not the colon.  The colon ruptured while he was in the hospital.  Once that happened there wasn't much the doctors could do. The next day they called the family in to say goodbye. 

The multiple organ failure started occurring about three hours after receiving the third booster shot.  

The current theory (we may never know for sure what caused what ) is that the immune system's reaction to the vaccine triggered a reaction that cause inflammation and triggered the shutdown.  the guy already had some health issues (he wasn't on deaths door) that may have made him susceptible.

These are the facts as far as I know them.  

I am not claiming this is a normal response to the vaccine.  I don't think it is a normal response.  I went ahead and got a booster shot afterwards.  I am not against vaccines.  My whole family is vaccinated (except my youngest son, who just became eligible and we haven't set up his doctors appointment to get the vaccine yet, but plan to do it after the holidays).

Even though we may do everything right, not everything is guaranteed in life.  People have unexpected reactions to medical treatment.  Doctors, like everyone else, can make mistakes.  

 

 

[Danzo]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Was he throwing up etc?

His colon ruptured

[John Madden]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Was he throwing up etc?

Have you considered asking about the length and color of the patient's toenails and fingernails? This could help you make a thorough internet diagnosis and discredit the person that was there in real life. Could be super helpful. Think about it. Just, think about it. 

[The Nehor]

29 minutes ago, BRMC said:

As I stated above, the dangers of COVID vary between demographics.  For some demographics the danger from COVID is virtually non-existent.   The vaccine carries risk of injury as well.   For a demographic in which the danger of COVID is virtually non-existent, why would they risk a vaccine who's dangers are still being revealed?

The dangers from the vaccine are almost non-existent outside of allergies and maybe people with severe cardiac problems. The dangers are played up.

2 hours ago, BRMC said:

And yet people are still crying for everyone to get the vaccine.......

Yes, because we want the pandemic to be over and for the dying to stop. Or are you saying that if it worked we wouldn’t have to keep urging people and they would be rational and get it out of plain good sense? I too once thought that. So did the people who were distributing polio and smallpox vaccines. Luckily they didn’t have the internet so their antivax groups were smaller as they couldn’t get their misinformation out so quickly.

2 hours ago, John Madden said:

Is the shame and guilt you feel for not getting the vaccine and booster sooner than you did stronger than the pride you feel for getting it before someone else? Sounds like a lot of people died because you were not vaccinated or boosted for a minute or something but now you probably saved a lot of lives because you got it. You may have saved my life. You probably saved Russel M. Nelson's life too. That must make you feel so good. But if you got the vaccine sooner maybe the people that died would still be alive and that must tear you up with guilt and shame. 

I would give up on trying to use sarcasm. It is clearly not your medium. Maybe try semaphore or interpretive dance.

[The Nehor]

18 minutes ago, John Madden said:

Have you considered asking about the length and color of the patient's toenails and fingernails? This could help you make a thorough internet diagnosis and discredit the person that was there in real life. Could be super helpful. Think about it. Just, think about it. 

Physician, heal thyself.

[BRMC]

11 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

The dangers from the vaccine are almost non-existent outside of allergies and maybe people with severe cardiac problems. The dangers are played up.

 

That's not true at all, and we don't even know the whole story yet.  Heck, the Janssen vaccine went from "safe and effective" to "eh, you'd better not use this one".  

 

Quote

Yes, because we want the pandemic to be over and for the dying to stop. Or are you saying that if it worked we wouldn’t have to keep urging people and they would be rational and get it out of plain good sense? I too once thought that. So did the people who were distributing polio and smallpox vaccines. Luckily they didn’t have the internet so their antivax groups were smaller as they couldn’t get their misinformation out so quickly.

Then stay inside?   I'm not going to inject myself, or my children, to protect them from an illness they statistically aren't in danger from using a vaccine that has risk and unknown, regardless how low.  If I were someone in a demographic that is at risk from COVID, I would get vaccinated.  I would get that vaccination knowing I could still catch, and spread, COVID but my symptoms will most likely be less.  

You haven't provided a logical reason I should.

Edited January 2, 2022 by BRMC

[pogi]

46 minutes ago, BRMC said:

As I stated above, the dangers of COVID vary between demographics.  For some demographics the danger from COVID is virtually non-existent.   The vaccine carries risk of injury as well.   For a demographic in which the danger of COVID is virtually non-existent, why would they risk a vaccine who's dangers are still being revealed?

There is risk for hospitalization and/or death in every demographic from Covid.  Have you actually compared the risks of hospitalization and/or death in each demographic from Covid vs the vaccine? 

“Still being revealed”?  Can you elaborate?  Is there some new revelation of vaccine risk that I am unaware of?

Edited January 2, 2022 by pogi

[BRMC]

9 minutes ago, pogi said:

There is risk for hospitalization and/or death in every demographic from Covid.  Have you actually compared the risks of hospitalization and/or death in each demographic from Covid vs the vaccine?  
 

To the extent I need to.  In my location, one person under 20 that had severe health issues, has died from COVID out of hundred of thousands of cases.  4 under 30.   55% of those deaths were over 80.  80% of those deaths were over 70.  Less than 3% of those deaths were under the age of 50.   ANYONE who is saying the risks for each demographic are worth worrying about are lying to you.  That's just a fact.

 

Quote

Still being revealed”?  Can you elaborate?  Is there some new revelation of vaccine risk that I am unaware of?

Sure.  A few months ago we had 3 vaccines that were "safe and effective".   Now we have one that was paused, but is still listed by the CDC as a "last resort".   What will we learn next month?

Edited January 2, 2022 by BRMC

[Chum]

5 minutes ago, BRMC said:

What will we learn next month?

That vaccines are safe, effective and save lives by the cattlecar load. Same thing we learn every month.

[BRMC]

Just now, Chum said:

That vaccines are safe, effective and save lives by the cattlecar load. Same thing we learn every month.

Well, except for the Janssen.  We learned that isn't quite as safe (even though we were told for a year that it was) and should be taken as a last resort.

Edited January 2, 2022 by BRMC

[The Nehor]

12 minutes ago, BRMC said:

That's not true at all, and we don't even know the whole story yet.  Heck, the Janssen vaccine went from "safe and effective" to "eh, you'd better not use this one".  

That vaccine is ironically the traditional vaccine. I admit I am amused when I see people scream about how unsafe the new mRNA vaccines are and point to this as proof. The danger was minimal with that vaccine and it was pulled due to some trends and an abundance of caution.

The mRNA vaccines are much safer as everything in the vaccine is flushed out of your system within a few days so the possibility of medium or long term adverse events is virtually nil.

12 minutes ago, BRMC said:

 Then stay inside?   I'm not going to inject myself, or my children, to protect them from an illness they statistically aren't in danger from using a vaccine that has risk and unknown, regardless how low.  If I were someone in a demographic that is at risk from COVID, I would get vaccinated.  I would get that vaccination knowing I could still catch, and spread, COVID but my symptoms will most likely be less.  

You haven't provided a logical reason I should.

Statistically the odds of the vaccine harming you are several magnitudes lower than the odds of Covid harming you. There, logical reason. Also there is a “no take-backsies” clause so if someone ends up dying on a ventilator desperately exhausted and terrified while trying to breathe you can’t change your mind and get vaccinated. If the risks of dying were the same from the vaccine and Covid (they are not) I would go with the less painful death.

You are also focusing solely on survival. If you live you win. Read up on long Covid if you want the impact it can have on someone whose risks are low even if they get it and recover. That doesn’t happen with vaccines. Just be aware if you say something about vaccines causing autism you will make baby Jesus cry.

[BRMC]

4 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

That vaccine is ironically the traditional vaccine. I admit I am amused when I see people scream about how unsafe the new mRNA vaccines are and point to this as proof. The danger was minimal with that vaccine and it was pulled due to some trends and an abundance of caution.

The mRNA vaccines are much safer as everything in the vaccine is flushed out of your system within a few days so the possibility of medium or long term adverse events is virtually nil.

Yeah.  That's what they told me about the Janssen, too.  Then it wasn't.  Since I'm not in an at-risk demographic AND I have natural antibodies, there is zero reason for me to get a vaccine.

Quote

Statistically the odds of the vaccine harming you are several magnitudes lower than the odds of Covid harming you. There, logical reason. Also there is a “no take-backsies” clause so if someone ends up dying on a ventilator desperately exhausted and terrified while trying to breathe you can’t change your mind and get vaccinated. If the risks of dying were the same from the vaccine and Covid (they are not) I would go with the less painful death.

False.  That isn't a logical reason at all.  COVID isn't a measurable risk to some, particularly after having had it.   That's an emotional reason.   For males under 40, the risk of myocarditis was 27% higher for the vaccine.   https://nakedemperor.substack.com/p/myocarditis-in-young-males-after There is also a "no take-backsies" clause for the vaccine, too.  Ask Tejada.

Edited January 2, 2022 by BRMC

[Chum]

25 minutes ago, BRMC said:

Well, except for the Janssen.  We learned that isn't quite as safe (even though we were told for a year that it was) and should be taken as a last resort.

I'll put it on my To Don't list.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, BRMC said:

To the extent I need to.  In my location, one person under 20 that had severe health issues, has died from COVID out of hundred of thousands of cases.  4 under 30.   55% of those deaths were over 80.  80% of those deaths were over 70.  Less than 3% of those deaths were under the age of 50.   ANYONE who is saying the risks for each demographic are worth worrying about are lying to you.  That's just a fact.

 

Sure.  A few months ago we had 3 vaccines that were "safe and effective".   Now we have one that was paused, but is still listed by the CDC as a "last resort".   What will we learn next month?

I don't know how you think the information that you have provided is sufficient to calculate risk vs benefit.   

No one is denying that risk of death from Covid is low in certain populations.  That fact doesn't tell me if the risk of is higher or lower from the vaccine or disease. 

What is your location?  Do you mind supplying us with those statistics?  Can you please provide me with hospitalization and death rates for Covid under 50?   Not to mention long Covid rates.  Some people have never received there sense of smell and taste back.  Some people are disabled (including my brother in law) from long Covid.  He has practically been in bed for the last 6 months.  Crippling fatigue.  

Then, if you could please supply me with death and hospitalization rates from Covid vaccine in your area under 50.  That is the only way we can accurately and fairly compare risk vs benefit.  If deaths and hospitalization from vaccination under 50 is less then from Covid, then the risk is greater not to get the vaccine.  

If you want to break it up even further into age groups.  That would be great too.  

Of course these risk vs benefit assessments and calculation have already been done, but if you think they are wrong...please provide the evidence. 

1 hour ago, BRMC said:

Sure.  A few months ago we had 3 vaccines that were "safe and effective".   Now we have one that was paused, but is still listed by the CDC as a "last resort".   What will we learn next month?

The vaccine is still considered "safe and effective" compared to Covid.   Last resort doesn't mean not 'safe or effective'.  

If we learn something new next month, the risk will be even lower.  Many of the extremely rare adverse events from vaccination are not captured with millions of vaccines, but require 100's of millions of doses administered before these events are able to be captured on the radar.  The longer we go and the more data we collect, the more rare the events will be that are discovered.  There will be no freaky revelation that vaccines are more dangerous than Covid in any age group.  That can't happen given the data we already have. 

Quote

The CDC said the problem is rare, but it has been seen at a rate of about one case in every 100,000 doses given to women 30 to 49 years old

15% of those were fatal.  That is 1.5 deaths/million doses administered to women ages 30 to 49.  

If we calculate risk of death from Covid in that population, and compare it to the extremely rare death vaccination, which do you think will be higher?  

If we calculate risk from clotting from Covid in all age groups, which do you think will be higher?

 

Edited January 2, 2022 by pogi

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Danzo said:

His colon ruptured

Thank you for the details. It sounds brutal for him and your family.