Prayer without faith

[Fether]

Just trying to understand prayer more.

Matthew 21:21-22 -

“If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.
22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.”

 

 

Mormon 3:12 -

“my soul had been poured out in prayer unto my God all the day long for them; nevertheless, it was without faith, because of the hardness of their hearts.”

 

if Mormon had faith, would the ending of the Book of Mormon been different? If not, what role does faith take in prayer?

[Kenngo1969]

Faith helps us accomplish God's purposes.  It helps us develop the wherewithal to do what we need to do when it might be lacking.  It helps us accept God's will.  But faith cannot infringe upon another's free will and moral agency.  With reference to having the faith to accept God's will, see https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2016/08/accepting-the-lords-will-and-timing?lang=eng.  With reference to faith not abridging the free will and moral agency of others, see  https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/dallin-h-oaks/timing/.

I like these "money quotes" from Elder (now President) Oaks.  When talking about what we should do if life doesn't work out the way we'd planned (Mormon might be a perfect example of that!  He certainly got more [or less] than he bargained for in mortality!) Elder Oaks said:

Quote

 

So what should be done in the meantime? Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ prepares us for whatever life brings. This kind of faith prepares us to deal with life’s opportunities—to take advantage of those that are received and to persist through the disappointments of those that are lost. In the exercise of that faith we should commit ourselves to the priorities and standards we will follow on matters we do not control and persist faithfully in those commitments whatever happens to us because of the agency of others or the timing of the Lord. When we do this, we will have a constancy in our lives that will give us direction and peace. Whatever the circumstances beyond our control, our commitments and standards can be constant. ...

If we have faith in God and if we are committed to the fundamentals of keeping His commandments and putting Him first in our lives, we do not need to plan every single event—even every important event—and we should not feel rejected or depressed if some things—even some very important things—do not happen at the time we had planned or hoped or prayed.

 

My $0.02.  Your mileage may vary.  Not available in all areas.  Void where prohibited.  See local retailer for details.  

Edited December 10, 2021 by Kenngo1969

[CV75]

40 minutes ago, Fether said:

Just trying to understand prayer more.

Matthew 21:21-22 -

“If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.
22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.”

 

 

Mormon 3:12 -

“my soul had been poured out in prayer unto my God all the day long for them; nevertheless, it was without faith, because of the hardness of their hearts.”

 

if Mormon had faith, would the ending of the Book of Mormon been different? If not, what role does faith take in prayer?

I don't think the problem was Mormon's lack of faith but his people's -- he could not lead lead them to victory in the Lord's way, which he prayed for, because of the hardness of their hearts. This kind of leadership requires willing followers as well as a righteous leader.

12 Behold, I had led them, notwithstanding their wickedness I had led them many times to battle, and had loved them, according to the ^alove of God which was in me, with all my heart; and my soul had been poured out in prayer unto my God all the day long for them; nevertheless, it [the mutual object of his prayers, to be led to victory] was ^bwithout faith, because of the ^chardness of their hearts.

 

Edited December 10, 2021 by CV75

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, Fether said:

Just trying to understand prayer more.

Matthew 21:21-22 -

“If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.
22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.”

 

 

Mormon 3:12 -

“my soul had been poured out in prayer unto my God all the day long for them; nevertheless, it was without faith, because of the hardness of their hearts.”

 

if Mormon had faith, would the ending of the Book of Mormon been different? If not, what role does faith take in prayer?

Faith cannot supersede the will of Him who we exercise faith in.  Neither can faith strip someone else of their agency.

I think that Mormon was using faith to mean hope in that verse. 

[smac97]

5 hours ago, Fether said:

Just trying to understand prayer more.

Matthew 21:21-22 -

“If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.
22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.”

Mormon 3:12 -

“my soul had been poured out in prayer unto my God all the day long for them; nevertheless, it was without faith, because of the hardness of their hearts.”

if Mormon had faith, would the ending of the Book of Mormon been different? If not, what role does faith take in prayer?

I think Mormon was praying for His people knowing that they were in the thrall of depravity and evil.  Such sentiments were presaged by Nephi centuries before:

Quote

O the pain, and the anguish of my soul for the loss of the slain of my people! For I, Nephi, have seen it, and it well nigh consumeth me before the presence of the Lord; but I must cry unto my God: Thy ways are just.

We are commanded to "pray always."  2 Nephi 32:

Quote

8 And now, my beloved brethren, I perceive that ye ponder still in your hearts; and it grieveth me that I must speak concerning this thing. For if ye would hearken unto the Spirit which teacheth a man to pray, ye would know that ye must pray; for the evil spirit teacheth not a man to pray, but teacheth him that he must not pray.
9 But behold, I say unto you that ye must pray always, and not faint; that ye must not perform any thing unto the Lord save in the first place ye shall pray unto the Father in the name of Christ, that he will consecrate thy performance unto thee, that thy performance may be for the welfare of thy soul.

3 Nephi 18:

Quote

15 Verily, verily, I say unto you, ye must watch and pray always, lest ye be tempted by the devil, and ye be led away captive by him.
...
18 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, ye must watch and pray always lest ye enter into temptation; for Satan desireth to have you, that he may sift you as wheat.

Nevertheless, I have a hard time faulting Mormon for being discouraged.  While I am sure he continued to have faith in God (as evidenced by his pouring his soul out in prayer to Him), by the point in time Mormon is describing he had spent decades as the leader of the armies of the Nephites.  He was appointed to that position in AD 326 (Mormon 2).  Thirty six years later, in AD 362, he "utterly refuse[d]...to be a commander and a leader" of the Nephites because of their "wickedness and abomination" (Mormon 3:11).  It was around this time, after more than thirty years of intermittent bloodshed and seemingly continuous great wickedness among his people, that he despaired as to his people.  From Mormon 3:

Quote

2 And it came to pass that the Lord did say unto me: Cry unto this people—Repent ye, and come unto me, and be ye baptized, and build up again my church, and ye shall be spared.
3 And I did cry unto this people, but it was in vain; and they did not realize that it was the Lord that had spared them, and granted unto them a chance for repentance. And behold they did harden their hearts against the Lord their God.

Mormon prefaced his "it was without faith" in v. 12 with some important context.  Again from Mormon 3:

Quote

8 And in the three hundred and sixty and second year they did come down again to battle. And we did beat them again, and did slay a great number of them, and their dead were cast into the sea.
9 And now, because of this great thing which my people, the Nephites, had done, they began to boast in their own strength, and began to swear before the heavens that they would avenge themselves of the blood of their brethren who had been slain by their enemies.
10 And they did swear by the heavens, and also by the throne of God, that they would go up to battle against their enemies, and would cut them off from the face of the land.
11 And it came to pass that I, Mormon, did utterly refuse from this time forth to be a commander and a leader of this people, because of their wickedness and abomination.

Many years later, in AD 375, Mormon again agreed to lead the armies because the Nephites were losing badly.  From Mormon 5:

Quote

1 And it came to pass that I did go forth among the Nephites, and did repent of the oath which I had made that I would no more assist them; and they gave me command again of their armies, for they looked upon me as though I could deliver them from their afflictions.
2 But behold, I was without hope, for I knew the judgments of the Lord which should come upon them; for they repented not of their iniquities, but did struggle for their lives without calling upon that Being who created them.

Prayer is vital.  Faith is vital.  But I think Mormon knew that his people were ripening for destruction, despite his best efforts to dissade them from their wickedness.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited December 10, 2021 by smac97

[The Nehor]

Also a good lesson against making rash oaths out of anger or frustration.

[MiserereNobis]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Also a good lesson against making rash oaths out of anger or frustration.

Poor Jephthah's daughter...