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the Trinity pt. 2


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On 10/11/2021 at 1:50 PM, poptart said:

Wanted to add to the old thread before it was flamed to death then locked.  Here's a nice talk on it.

 

Ok.

So I listened to the first minute or two, and..... I was not happy.

It seemed disgusting and blasphemous frankly. Then suddenly it turned into a wonderful LDS-compatible,view of embodiment.

If you missed it, check it out

Bump

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19 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Ok.

So I listened to the first minute or two, and..... I was not happy.

It seemed disgusting and blasphemous frankly. Then suddenly it turned into a wonderful LDS-compatible,view of embodiment.

If you missed it, check it out

Bump

Without listening to a single minute myself, with just the picture, I agree with your first assessment, Mark.

Bodybuilder Jesus crucified? No. Please, no. They didn't have that kind of knowledge of how to work the body up like that. Did they? Jesus could not/should not have been physically extraordinary like that, even in our day. He spent His spare time, using supplements and getting all that muscle at some gym in Nazareth??? When did this begin? Teenage years? Before or after He fasted in the Wilderness for forty days? That is what He looked like while being scourged at the pillar, crowned with thorns, brought before the people as a miserable figure, pitiable, a "worm and no man". I think people would still be in awe at such a sight, without miracles, AFTER scourging, AFTER crowning. AFTER crucifixion. Really...How could He look like that on the Cross, without Him having an obsession in Nazareth, for His physical appearance which would be an inappropriate distraction for the Son of God, the Son of Man, as well as the future children of God?  

I won't say that I won't worship Jesus if He is "buff", as daughters used to say 20 years ago about certain muscular Hollywood figures that they innocently liked. Bring on the theology. I will try to submit to reality, but it will go a little hard for me if I need to think that Jesus looks like The Terminator on the Cross.

 

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19 hours ago, 3DOP said:

Without listening to a single minute myself, with just the picture, I agree with your first assessment, Mark.

Bodybuilder Jesus crucified? No. Please, no. They didn't have that kind of knowledge of how to work the body up like that. Did they? Jesus could not/should not have been physically extraordinary like that, even in our day. He spent His spare time, using supplements and getting all that muscle at some gym in Nazareth??? When did this begin? Teenage years? Before or after He fasted in the Wilderness for forty days? That is what He looked like while being scourged at the pillar, crowned with thorns, brought before the people as a miserable figure, pitiable, a "worm and no man". I think people would still be in awe at such a sight, without miracles, AFTER scourging, AFTER crowning. AFTER crucifixion. Really...How could He look like that on the Cross, without Him having an obsession in Nazareth, for His physical appearance which would be an inappropriate distraction for the Son of God, the Son of Man, as well as the future children of God?  

I won't say that I won't worship Jesus if He is "buff", as daughters used to say 20 years ago about certain muscular Hollywood figures that they innocently liked. Bring on the theology. I will try to submit to reality, but it will go a little hard for me if I need to think that Jesus looks like The Terminator on the Cross.

 

Well, you and I are on other ends of the political spectrum and likely bitter enemies at the polls. Naturally I'd not expect someone like you to appreciate a person this kind, everyone else here?  Hopefully.  

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52 minutes ago, poptart said:

Well, you and I are on other ends of the political spectrum and likely bitter enemies at the polls. Naturally I'd not expect someone like you to appreciate a person this kind, everyone else here?  Hopefully.  

I don’t think you should assume that one disliked video means he won’t appreciate anything produced. 

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7 minutes ago, Calm said:

I don’t think you should assume that one disliked video means he won’t appreciate anything produced. 

Trying to be nice, that being said it sure seems like whenever we're in a thread together (Not you you're cool lol) we disagree and I usually end up being insulted.  I try to take it with a grain of salt, kind of like with the backhanded insult about Lutherans and how Mormons are the "constant Lutherans".  From the more "trad caths" I tend to expect that kind of poor behavior, it's what they do on a lot of SSPX and especially CMRI spaces.  I transformed it into a compliment, when I did go to sacrament meeting a few times in the past I had the privilege of hearing a mighty fortress is our God sung, was beautiful.  That and if I recall correctly it was Robert Smith who mentioned how German language bibles were used by the LDS church.  My hat off to them for knowing quality when they see it.  

 

Edited by poptart
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1 hour ago, poptart said:

Trying to be nice, that being said it sure seems like whenever we're in a thread together (Not you you're cool lol) we disagree and I usually end up being insulted.  I try to take it with a grain of salt, kind of like with the backhanded insult about Lutherans and how Mormons are the "constant Lutherans".  From the more "trad caths" I tend to expect that kind of poor behavior, it's what they do on a lot of SSPX and especially CMRI spaces.  I transformed it into a compliment, when I did go to sacrament meeting a few times in the past I had the privilege of hearing a mighty fortress is our God sung, was beautiful.  That and if I recall correctly it was Robert Smith who mentioned how German language bibles were used by the LDS church.  My hat off to them for knowing quality when they see it.  

 

That's a first that I've heard that LDS use German Bibles. I've not ever seen that in my life. But I live in the Utah, a bubble in Davis County and people might think you're nuts to use a German Bible. Maybe the LDS use them in Germany, and maybe Robert's ward isn't like my ward here in Utah.

Edited by Tacenda
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15 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

That's a first that I've heard that LDS use German Bibles. I've not ever seen that in my life. But I live in the Utah, a bubble in Davis County and people might think you're nuts to use a German Bible. Maybe the LDS use them in Germany, and maybe Robert's ward isn't like my ward here in Utah.

German bibles for translations for what the LDS church uses.  I can't find the thread, would be cool if he could pop in and correct me if I'm wrong/go into more detail if I'm right.  Didn't mean to imply you use German language bibles, do you guys have any German speaking communities left outside of people who served over there?  Outside of a few spots in Texas and the Midwest, I thought they were a thing of the past.

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1 hour ago, poptart said:

German bibles for translations for what the LDS church uses.  I can't find the thread, would be cool if he could pop in and correct me if I'm wrong/go into more detail if I'm right.  Didn't mean to imply you use German language bibles, 

Are you thinking of the information  Dan McClellan shared with us here?

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On 10/17/2021 at 7:11 PM, poptart said:

Well, you and I are on other ends of the political spectrum and likely bitter enemies at the polls. "Naturally I'd not expect someone like you to appreciate a person this kind", everyone else here?  Hopefully.  

Poptart. Hi.

There has been a misunderstanding somewhere. From some things that you said to calm further down, it appears that I have been for even a little time past at least, already odious to your sensibilities. I take this seriously.

Shoot. I kind of follow you! You put up good stuff about traditional Catholic liturgies and raise provocative questions on my LDS board! 

But in my defense, I cannot figure out what would make you say to me, that "Naturally I'd not expect someone like you to appreciate a person this kind". Someone "like me" does not appreciate kind people? That's kind of rough, pop. What have I said to deserve that? 

Anyway, I trust that you have a good heart and would be glad to find I have no malice towards you, or "kind people" in general. Heh. I hope I can try to mitigate the damage done sometime soon. 

I don't care to say true things if it only makes enemies. I am not willing to be wrong to make friends. But if my way of saying what I think is true is offensive to everybody, there is no point in saying it, because the parties I am trying to reason with, are distanced further from my perceived truth, by my way of saying it. Anyway, for now, I sincerely regret having probably been an ignorant and insensitive fool.

God love you, Poptart, and me too. Take care. Perhaps I can explain what seems to me like, my innocent beliefs, this weekend. Until then...

Rory

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39 minutes ago, 3DOP said:

Poptart. Hi.

There has been a misunderstanding somewhere. From some things that you said to calm further down, it appears that I have been for even a little time past at least, already odious to your sensibilities. I take this seriously.

Shoot. I kind of follow you! You put up good stuff about traditional Catholic liturgies and raise provocative questions on my LDS board! 

But in my defense, I cannot figure out what would make you say to me, that "Naturally I'd not expect someone like you to appreciate a person this kind". Someone "like me" does not appreciate kind people? That's kind of rough, pop. What have I said to deserve that? 

Anyway, I trust that you have a good heart and would be glad to find I have no malice towards you, or "kind people" in general. Heh. I hope I can try to mitigate the damage done sometime soon. 

I don't care to say true things if it only makes enemies. I am not willing to be wrong to make friends. But if my way of saying what I think is true is offensive to everybody, there is no point in saying it, because the parties I am trying to reason with, are distanced further from my perceived truth, by my way of saying it. Anyway, for now, I sincerely regret having probably been an ignorant and insensitive fool.

God love you, Poptart, and me too. Take care. Perhaps I can explain what seems to me like, my innocent beliefs, this weekend. Until then...

Rory

Rory, your goodwill and tolerance and kindness and desire to understand and explain have been manifest the entire time I’ve been on this board. I’m supremely confident that others who have been here longer can testify even more. 
 

Today is the feast of St. Luke the Evangelist. I feel that is appropriate for this conversation. Thank you, Rory, for always being a kind voice of traditional Catholic reasoning. 

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4 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Rory, your goodwill and tolerance and kindness and desire to understand and explain have been manifest the entire time I’ve been on this board. I’m supremely confident that others who have been here longer can testify even more. 
 

Today is the feast of St. Luke the Evangelist. I feel that is appropriate for this conversation. Thank you, Rory, for always being a kind voice of traditional Catholic reasoning. 

Thanks, Jesse. Happy Feast Day! St. Luke, ora pro nobis.

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On 10/18/2021 at 8:25 PM, 3DOP said:

Poptart. Hi.

There has been a misunderstanding somewhere. From some things that you said to calm further down, it appears that I have been for even a little time past at least, already odious to your sensibilities. I take this seriously.

Shoot. I kind of follow you! You put up good stuff about traditional Catholic liturgies and raise provocative questions on my LDS board! 

But in my defense, I cannot figure out what would make you say to me, that "Naturally I'd not expect someone like you to appreciate a person this kind". Someone "like me" does not appreciate kind people? That's kind of rough, pop. What have I said to deserve that? 

Anyway, I trust that you have a good heart and would be glad to find I have no malice towards you, or "kind people" in general. Heh. I hope I can try to mitigate the damage done sometime soon. 

I don't care to say true things if it only makes enemies. I am not willing to be wrong to make friends. But if my way of saying what I think is true is offensive to everybody, there is no point in saying it, because the parties I am trying to reason with, are distanced further from my perceived truth, by my way of saying it. Anyway, for now, I sincerely regret having probably been an ignorant and insensitive fool.

God love you, Poptart, and me too. Take care. Perhaps I can explain what seems to me like, my innocent beliefs, this weekend. Until then...

Rory

I was going to have a long, drawn out reply, changed my mind.  You're right, I was a bit harsh, sorry.  That being said, here's the thing, it was partially the Pope Francis comments that irritated me, I am a huge fan of his and love his work.  It was the Lutheran comment that really stuck, I was baptized Lutheran first, had Lutheran clergy in the family, know enough about the denomination (good and bad...) and still stand up for them.  Know that the likes of me aren't really well represented here but I for one sure take pride in those roots.  It was the comment in this thread that did it for me, any idea who Casey Cole is?  

Casey Cole - Wikipedia

He does what the likes of Bishop Barron do, go to the online spaces and does his ministry there.  Those of us on the other end of the divide, esp. LGBTQ, POC, etc. are a bit leery of religious spaces nowadays, especially after how people acted last year.  The country is polarized and as someone who very much identifies with the left, those on your end can make me a bit uncomfortable to be around, to the point where, like I said we're on different ends and may well be bitter enemies at the polls.  We're sick of this, we're sick of the entitlement as is a lot of your leadership (Pope Francis, various Bishops) and act/vote accordingly, end of discussion.  I put this as nicely as I could.  Also of course there were likely no body builders back then, at least like we have now.  Casey Cole speaks in memes, basically parables for millennials especially those who frequent reddit and other online spaces.  

Going in the direction I wanted this thread to, I'm going to put my grievances aside (esp. with MiserereNobis vouching for you) and listen to what you have to say.  If you take these things seriously, I will hear you out.  

Will add, from one Trinitarian to another I do tend to hold you and people like you in high regard because you are from the proper end of Christendom.  You guys hold the tradition of TLM even if a lot of your rank and file are of a different socioeconomic/political background.  SSPX is no rabble, you guys had the guts to start something from the ground up and despite politics do keep one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen alive.  With that being said, I also hold you guys to a much higher standard, you should know better and from my perspective, the conduct of many of you is lacking.  Those from a background as such should set a standard that others can, at the very least see to be a holy one, that includes charity.  

 

 

Edited by poptart
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On 10/20/2021 at 8:59 PM, poptart said:

I was going to have a long, drawn out reply, changed my mind.  You're right, I was a bit harsh, sorry.  That being said, here's the thing, it was partially the Pope Francis comments that irritated me, I am a huge fan of his and love his work.  It was the Lutheran comment that really stuck, I was baptized Lutheran first, had Lutheran clergy in the family, know enough about the denomination (good and bad...) and still stand up for them.  Know that the likes of me aren't really well represented here but I for one sure take pride in those roots.  It was the comment in this thread that did it for me, any idea who Casey Cole is?  

Casey Cole - Wikipedia

He does what the likes of Bishop Barron do, go to the online spaces and does his ministry there.  Those of us on the other end of the divide, esp. LGBTQ, POC, etc. are a bit leery of religious spaces nowadays, especially after how people acted last year.  The country is polarized and as someone who very much identifies with the left, those on your end can make me a bit uncomfortable to be around, to the point where, like I said we're on different ends and may well be bitter enemies at the polls.  We're sick of this, we're sick of the entitlement as is a lot of your leadership (Pope Francis, various Bishops) and act/vote accordingly, end of discussion.  I put this as nicely as I could.  Also of course there were likely no body builders back then, at least like we have now.  Casey Cole speaks in memes, basically parables for millennials especially those who frequent reddit and other online spaces.  

Going in the direction I wanted this thread to, I'm going to put my grievances aside (esp. with MiserereNobis vouching for you) and listen to what you have to say.  If you take these things seriously, I will hear you out.  

Will add, from one Trinitarian to another I do tend to hold you and people like you in high regard because you are from the proper end of Christendom.  You guys hold the tradition of TLM even if a lot of your rank and file are of a different socioeconomic/political background.  SSPX is no rabble, you guys had the guts to start something from the ground up and despite politics do keep one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen alive.  With that being said, I also hold you guys to a much higher standard, you should know better and from my perspective, the conduct of many of you is lacking.  Those from a background as such should set a standard that others can, at the very least see to be a holy one, that includes charity.  

 

 

Poptart, hi.

I didn't know you considered yourself Lutheran and did not remember any comments about Lutherans, although your comment to calm about it, did sound like something I could have said. So today, I finally found it. (Well, I copied the link and pasted it, and it messed up my text.) It can be found on p. 4 of General Discussions, in a thread started by Fether on Sep. 1, in which you made the last reply (to me), on p. 6.

I had not picked up on the idea that you identified to some degree as Lutheran in that thread. I should have picked up on your affinity. If it makes it any better, I could have used any Protestant denomination to make my point which needs little reiteration, except to say that I did not understand how it might give offense. I am sure I even thought you might agree with it! I was pointing to why, in my opinion, if there is a great Apostasy in which Apostolic authority is lost, I would find Restoration to be more appealing than Reformation. Most Catholics don't understand that, especially with regards to ecclesiology, LDS and Catholics are much closer to each other than either of us are to any Protestant denomination. 

But in this thread, I admitted to Mark, who seemed to have the same initial reaction as I, that I hadn't even listened to Fr. Cole's video. I was reacting to that beefed up Jesus, busting up the Cross while He is "suffering" on it. That was what I was seeing. Perhaps this is kind of a cartoon thing that makes people think about the extent of Jesus' physical perfections. As it happens, it helped me have a constructive conversation the next day with a workmate about that very subject. Anyway, I will refrain from further comment until I can take time to listen to what Fr. Cole is driving at with his full message. I apologize for making a rash judgment about his presentation.

Rory

PS: I wanted to add that sometimes it might be helpful in this forum, to explain why I think misgivings of papal teaching or policy might be permissible for a Catholic. The Catholics here are occasionally asked what we think about certain events or stories that are in the public eye. I will give attention to being more respectful of Pope Francis for my own sake as well as yours.

Edited by 3DOP
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27 minutes ago, 3DOP said:

But in this thread, I admitted to Mark, who seemed to have the same initial reaction as I, that I hadn't even listened to Fr. Cole's video.

Quite frankly it seemed to me to on the "great body" part to feed on perhaps a gay point of view, in the first part of the video.

His youth and habit did not help.

But I also think Catholicism has a big problem with Christ being embodied; that somewhere in some universe or dimension that body still exists, yet while being a part of the Trinity, not embodied.

I see that as a conflict that maybe you could clarify

Edited by mfbukowski
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On 10/17/2021 at 5:11 PM, poptart said:

Well, you and I are on other ends of the political spectrum and likely bitter enemies at the polls. Naturally I'd not expect someone like you to appreciate a person this kind, everyone else here?  Hopefully.  

Oh yeah. I am always sure my old man body is well toned for the guys in the gym.  And to drive the old ladies mad. Uh huh. 

Why start a good piece about the embodiment of God with even the NOTION that had a "good body"?

Suppose that was said about Mary?

But the piece was a good one, but chop off the beginning.

If the author wants to see Jesus that way, with all the fuss about Catholicism, let him keep it to himself 

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4 hours ago, 3DOP said:

Poptart, hi.

I didn't know you considered yourself Lutheran and did not remember any comments about Lutherans, although your comment to calm about it, did sound like something I could have said. So today, I finally found it. (Well, I copied the link and pasted it, and it messed up my text.) It can be found on p. 4 of General Discussions, in a thread started by Fether on Sep. 1, in which you made the last reply (to me), on p. 6.

I had not picked up on the idea that you identified to some degree as Lutheran in that thread. I should have picked up on your affinity. If it makes it any better, I could have used any Protestant denomination to make my point which needs little reiteration, except to say that I did not understand how it might give offense. I am sure I even thought you might agree with it! I was pointing to why, in my opinion, if there is a great Apostasy in which Apostolic authority is lost, I would find Restoration to be more appealing than Reformation. Most Catholics don't understand that, especially with regards to ecclesiology, LDS and Catholics are much closer to each other than either of us are to any Protestant denomination. 

But in this thread, I admitted to Mark, who seemed to have the same initial reaction as I, that I hadn't even listened to Fr. Cole's video. I was reacting to that beefed up Jesus, busting up the Cross while He is "suffering" on it. That was what I was seeing. Perhaps this is kind of a cartoon thing that makes people think about the extent of Jesus' physical perfections. As it happens, it helped me have a constructive conversation the next day with a workmate about that very subject. Anyway, I will refrain from further comment until I can take time to listen to what Fr. Cole is driving at with his full message. I apologize for making a rash judgment about his presentation.

Rory

PS: I wanted to add that sometimes it might be helpful in this forum, to explain why I think misgivings of papal teaching or policy might be permissible for a Catholic. The Catholics here are occasionally asked what we think about certain events or stories that are in the public eye. I will give attention to being more respectful of Pope Francis for my own sake as well as yours.

I do.  Also, that isn't quite true....

Evangelical Catholic - Wikipedia

It's not as common stateside unless you check out the ELCA, esp the churches that have people from the EKD as members.  Proper Lutheranism was supposed to be Catholic in character, they did like the Anglicans did to a degree, draw from the areas around them and the older traditions.  Lutherans still have monastic tradition.  Granted it's mostly in Germany but there are a few places here.  The ELCA even has their own Franciscans.  The tragedy is Lutheranism here stateside has almost always been a political mess in places.  Many churches and a few of the major denominations jumped on the suburbanite I've got mine bandwagon tossed their traditions out the window over the decades.  I've mentioned stuff here on the other synods, sadly I saw my share of that growing up as did a few older friends who were Sunday school teachers.  I'm not going to touch the reformation part, will say that at this point there are some who think the points that started the breakaway have been solved to a great degree, esp. by the likes of Pope Francis.  A lot of the Catholics I know IRL are huge fans of him just as I am.  Also, another bit of trivia, Martin Luther was all for Marian Devotion and held pretty much the same POV a lot of Catholics did as far as her mortal life and that in heaven, there's even a Lutheran Rosary.  Most I've seen use it just go the Catholic route, even I have whenever I have prayed the Rosary.  As it is Germany has more Catholics than Protestants now anyway, who knows they may just all join together at some point, they work together quite a bit now, at least in Germany and N.Europe.  It was always my hope they'd get along here like that but this is the USA, the politics are what they are as are the people.  Is what it is.

Yep, that was the point, the pic of Buff Jesus was just to draw people in, I think it worked quite well.  I'll just put this behind me, I'm grateful you actually made a good faith effort to hear me out.  I'll admit it, some things I am very, very touchy about, past things and just how things in the USA are nowadays.  I'll let bygones be bygones.  I'm quite impressed you went through that much trouble tbh.  

4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Quite frankly it seemed to me to on the "great body" part to feed on perhaps a gay point of view, in the first part of the video.

His youth and habit did not help.

But I also think Catholicism has a big problem with Christ being embodied; that somewhere in some universe or dimension that body still exists, yet while being a part of the Trinity, not embodied.

I see that as a conflict that maybe you could clarify

> Gay pov

Lol ton of LGBTQ Catholics, just like Protestants.  Also it's not just Catholics, Lutherans, Anglicans/Episcopals and the like are on the same page.  

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Oh yeah. I am always sure my old man body is well toned for the guys in the gym.  And to drive the old ladies mad. Uh huh. 

Why start a good piece about the embodiment of God with even the NOTION that had a "good body"?

Suppose that was said about Mary?

But the piece was a good one, but chop off the beginning.

If the author wants to see Jesus that way, with all the fuss about Catholicism, let him keep it to himself 

If I had my way I'd have had him go with the Greco Roman physique but like I said earlier, Casey Cole speaks in memes, works for me.  He's not the type of person to just stay in a church, he goes out there into the world.  Also It's not just the author, it's partially people like me.  It's clergy like that I support and happily get behind support wise.  

BTW, St. Paul did tie in athleticism in a really neat way, Casey Cole wasn't the first to appeal to "bro science."

The Apostle Paul and the Isthmian Games on JSTOR

Isthmian Games - Wikipedia

Also, duh of course you don't speak ill of Mary, that's Christs mom.  She suffered with him through it all.  She could have cried for him to come off the cross and he may well have done it but she knew what He was doing.  This is why I like Catholicism and keep the identity I do, there's that respect for Mary and women in general, something I wish people here in the states would pick up on more.  Women make so many things possible yet often times don't get the respect they deserve yet they stiff suffer on for the sake of their kids and those around them.  Here's me hoping the culture here, both Christian and secular changes someday, I'm not holding my breath.  

Not sure if any of you hang out in these spaces, some of the memes from these guys are great, the Bishop Barron ones are priceless.  He got me to read his bible and watch his podcasts, he gets heathens to pay attention give him credit.

 

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6fd5x3r084b11.jpg

Edited by poptart
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11 minutes ago, poptart said:

Also, duh of course you don't speak ill of Mary, that's Christs mom.

I am very confused.

So if he had done this in speaking about Mary, because she is Christ's mom, it would be to " speak ill..." of her.

So then it must be OK to "speak ill" of Christ?

Very strange.  

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7 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Quite frankly it seemed to me to on the "great body" part to feed on perhaps a gay point of view, in the first part of the video.

His youth and habit did not help.

But I also think Catholicism has a big problem with Christ being embodied; that somewhere in some universe or dimension that body still exists, yet while being a part of the Trinity, not embodied.

I see that as a conflict that maybe you could clarify

Mark. Hi.

Can any one person, even Christ, be embodied and also not embodied? Anyway, that is not a mystery that Catholics believe in. We Catholics should take joy that the embodied Christ, consubstantial with us as to His humanity, and consubstantial with the Father as to His divinity, potentially makes us all one. Catholics rejoice that our humanity now resides in Heaven in Christ. For people that believe in a transcendent incorporeal God like us, it is pretty stupendous stuff when Catholics ponder that God incorporeal, the Son of the Father, became Christ Jesus corporeal for us, and will be forevermore. It is our sign of hope that Humanity inhabits Heaven.    

(Those two consubstantials were for fun, kind of for old times sake between us, but it IS also Catholic dogma. Who has ever said that you can't add a body to God? Not me. All I have ever said is that it is not essential for God that he has to have a physical body. Which brings us to the question of essence and derivative terms like essential. It seems difficult to me to know what could be essential, without also believing in essence.)

I sure hope we both die in God's friendship Mark. And I know you do too. Please God make it so.

Rory       

 

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2 hours ago, 3DOP said:

Mark. Hi.

Can any one person, even Christ, be embodied and also not embodied? Anyway, that is not a mystery that Catholics believe in. We Catholics should take joy that the embodied Christ, consubstantial with us as to His humanity, and consubstantial with the Father as to His divinity, potentially makes us all one. Catholics rejoice that our humanity now resides in Heaven in Christ. For people that believe in a transcendent incorporeal God like us, it is pretty stupendous stuff when Catholics ponder that God incorporeal, the Son of the Father, became Christ Jesus corporeal for us, and will be forevermore. It is our sign of hope that Humanity inhabits Heaven.    

(Those two consubstantials were for fun, kind of for old times sake between us, but it IS also Catholic dogma. Who has ever said that you can't add a body to God? Not me. All I have ever said is that it is not essential for God that he has to have a physical body. Which brings us to the question of essence and derivative terms like essential. It seems difficult to me to know what could be essential, without also believing in essence.)

I sure hope we both die in God's friendship Mark. And I know you do too. Please God make it so.

Rory       

 

We definitely gotta discuss this floating on a cloud, harps in hand someday after we have more info! ;)

I just think humanity has given up on "mysteries", even if we know that as paltry humans we will never fully understand how it works, so we need to keep the story simple! I regard you as a very good friend, and always will.

We both see through a glass darkly!

We cannot help it!

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3 hours ago, 3DOP said:

We Catholics should take joy that the embodied Christ, consubstantial with us as to His humanity, and consubstantial with the Father as to His divinity, potentially makes us all one.

Actually if you take those two consubstantials and squish them together real hard, we might have a diamond! 🤯🤔 Can two consubstantials become one substance with one nature?  Like making two scoops of raisins into one pie?

By Jove I think we've got it!  

Where's that Aquinas book I have up in the attic?

Can two consubstantials dance on my pinhead?  

😁

Edited by mfbukowski
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13 hours ago, 3DOP said:

Mark. Hi.

Can any one person, even Christ, be embodied and also not embodied? Anyway, that is not a mystery that Catholics believe in. We Catholics should take joy that the embodied Christ, consubstantial with us as to His humanity, and consubstantial with the Father as to His divinity, potentially makes us all one. Catholics rejoice that our humanity now resides in Heaven in Christ. For people that believe in a transcendent incorporeal God like us, it is pretty stupendous stuff when Catholics ponder that God incorporeal, the Son of the Father, became Christ Jesus corporeal for us, and will be forevermore. It is our sign of hope that Humanity inhabits Heaven.    

(Those two consubstantials were for fun, kind of for old times sake between us, but it IS also Catholic dogma. Who has ever said that you can't add a body to God? Not me. All I have ever said is that it is not essential for God that he has to have a physical body. Which brings us to the question of essence and derivative terms like essential. It seems difficult to me to know what could be essential, without also believing in essence.)

I sure hope we both die in God's friendship Mark. And I know you do too. Please God make it so.

Rory       

 

I was going to ask you or MiserereNobis to answer that one, you're both practicing, mass going Catholics so big surprise, you answered that in a far better way than I could.  Like I said, I do tend to hold people like you to a higher standard hence why I can get annoyed, a fault of mine I am trying to work on.  Seriously, you answered that perfectly, I'm impressed.  I'll be following your posts a bit more closely, I have much to learn.

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