sunstoned Posted September 30, 2021 Posted September 30, 2021 Quote Will Bagley, a historian who wrote clear-eyed and detailed accounts of Utah’s past — particularly in a comprehensive and controversial book about the Mountain Meadows Massacre — has died. Bagley died Tuesday in Salt Lake City at age 71 after suffering a stroke, according to his brother, Pat Bagley, The Salt Lake Tribune’s editorial cartoonist. https://www.sltrib.com/news/2021/09/29/will-bagley-utah/ 2
Scott Lloyd Posted September 30, 2021 Posted September 30, 2021 4 hours ago, sunstoned said: https://www.sltrib.com/news/2021/09/29/will-bagley-utah/ I met and conversed with Will for a while on a bus tour in southern Utah in connection with a Mormon History Association Conference. I found him affable and friendly. He was a prolific writer who was passionate about history. His magnum opus, arguably, was his book on Mountain Meadows. Alas for him, it was eclipsed several years later by the more thoroughly, accurately and painstakingly researched book by Richard E. Turley Jr., Ron Walker and Glen Leonard that debunked some of Will’s claims. 4
Tacenda Posted September 30, 2021 Posted September 30, 2021 He was taken way too young. I went to hear him speak once, he had a new book out but I didn't quite finish it. He was a funny guy and lighthearted.
Navidad Posted September 30, 2021 Posted September 30, 2021 I have great respect for him as a person (most important) and as a historian. I once spent an hour with him as he regaled me with a tale about Isaac Haight's return trip from here in the colonies after Elder Teasdale asked him to leave (around 1885). Haight had been living here under an assumed name (Horton or Heaton - I forget which) when indicted for his role in MMM. Several of the indicted men came here to live and at least one died and is buried here in an unknown grave in the old Colonia Juarez cemetery. Haight was staying about 20 miles from my house at a temporary place they called Turley's Camp. At the same time a fiery convert to the church (former Baptist circuit riding preacher) from northwest Arkansas named George Calvin Williams was there as well. Williams was a real rough and rugged pioneer here who founded several of the colonies and whose name is on the obelisk on Temple Hill (where I once helped take SMAC's dad). Apparently while an itinerant pastor in Harrison County, Arkansas, Williams got to know and performed the marriage for two young couples who later traveled west with the Fancher wagon train and were killed. At an Elders Quorum meeting Williams found out that Haight was not really Br. Heaton/Horton but was, in part responsible for and a participant in the massacre. Williams blew a fuse and told Elder Teasdale it was either him or Heaton/Horton, but not both. The next morning Haight was on his way back to the United States to St. George. While in Thatcher, AZ he had a heart attack and died. Not sure about his identity or family they put his remains in a casket in the basement of the court house. There it remained for many years. Bagley told me that in the early 1900s, local kids would go down to the basement at Halloween time and scare each other. It was a great story, as only he could tell, all dressed up in his western-style clothes. He said he always wanted to go to Thatcher to check out this story that he had gotten many years before from a then old-timer of that town. I believe there is a new courthouse there now, but the old one still is standing. Some day I will stop by there and see what I can find out! I appreciate his friendliness and ability to spin a yarn. We swapped books that day. He signed mine "To the Mennonite in the Colonies!" Sorry to hear he has passed. 3
gmormon Posted September 30, 2021 Posted September 30, 2021 10 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: I met and conversed with Will for a while on a bus tour in southern Utah in connection with a Mormon History Association Conference. I found him affable and friendly. He was a prolific writer who was passionate about history. His magnum opus, arguably, was his book on Mountain Meadows. Alas for him, it was eclipsed several years later by the more thoroughly, accurately and painstakingly researched book by Richard E. Turley Jr., Ron Walker and Glen Leonard that debunked some of Will’s claims. Speaking of their 1st book when will the 2nd one be available? I read somewhere that its title would be, "After the Massacre."
Scott Lloyd Posted September 30, 2021 Posted September 30, 2021 4 minutes ago, gmormon said: Speaking of their 1st book when will the 2nd one be available? I read somewhere that its title would be, "After the Massacre." I’ve been wondering that myself. I know Rick Turley authored the new Dallin H. Oaks biography, so maybe he has been preoccupied with that. Ron Walker has since passed on, and I know that Glen Leonard retired quite a while ago, so I don’t think he’s involved with the sequel either. Since my own retirement (and his) I never see Rick Turley anymore, even occasionally, so I never have occasion to ask about it.
gmormon Posted September 30, 2021 Posted September 30, 2021 I hope there are still plans to do it. I would like to see the documentations, for the trials of John D Lee, and also why none of the others where brought to trial.
webbles Posted September 30, 2021 Posted September 30, 2021 3 hours ago, Navidad said: I have great respect for him as a person (most important) and as a historian. I once spent an hour with him as he regaled me with a tale about Isaac Haight's return trip from here in the colonies after Elder Teasdale asked him to leave (around 1885). Haight had been living here under an assumed name (Horton or Heaton - I forget which) when indicted for his role in MMM. Several of the indicted men came here to live and at least one died and is buried here in an unknown grave in the old Colonia Juarez cemetery. Haight was staying about 20 miles from my house at a temporary place they called Turley's Camp. At the same time a fiery convert to the church (former Baptist circuit riding preacher) from northwest Arkansas named George Calvin Williams was there as well. Williams was a real rough and rugged pioneer here who founded several of the colonies and whose name is on the obelisk on Temple Hill (where I once helped take SMAC's dad). Apparently while an itinerant pastor in Harrison County, Arkansas, Williams got to know and performed the marriage for two young couples who later traveled west with the Fancher wagon train and were killed. At an Elders Quorum meeting Williams found out that Haight was not really Br. Heaton/Horton but was, in part responsible for and a participant in the massacre. Williams blew a fuse and told Elder Teasdale it was either him or Heaton/Horton, but not both. The next morning Haight was on his way back to the United States to St. George. While in Thatcher, AZ he had a heart attack and died. Not sure about his identity or family they put his remains in a casket in the basement of the court house. There it remained for many years. Bagley told me that in the early 1900s, local kids would go down to the basement at Halloween time and scare each other. It was a great story, as only he could tell, all dressed up in his western-style clothes. He said he always wanted to go to Thatcher to check out this story that he had gotten many years before from a then old-timer of that town. I believe there is a new courthouse there now, but the old one still is standing. Some day I will stop by there and see what I can find out! I appreciate his friendliness and ability to spin a yarn. We swapped books that day. He signed mine "To the Mennonite in the Colonies!" Sorry to hear he has passed. I found this online - https://www.eacourier.com/lifestyle/did-you-know-old-uncle-bones/article_69471502-45d0-11e4-a132-83c1f52fbf8b.html The story on that site is almost the same about his death. But instead of him being a nobody in Thatcher, he was staying with his nephew (which makes sense since Thatcher is a Mormon town) and died of pneumonia. He was buried the old cemetery but when they moved the cemetery, there was an attempt to move his remains back to Cedar City. Because of that, his remains were left in the basement of the Brinkerhoff Hotel for 27 years until they were finally buried in the new Thatcher cemetery. Pretty cool story.
Navidad Posted October 1, 2021 Posted October 1, 2021 1 hour ago, webbles said: I found this online - https://www.eacourier.com/lifestyle/did-you-know-old-uncle-bones/article_69471502-45d0-11e4-a132-83c1f52fbf8b.html The story on that site is almost the same about his death. But instead of him being a nobody in Thatcher, he was staying with his nephew (which makes sense since Thatcher is a Mormon town) and died of pneumonia. He was buried the old cemetery but when they moved the cemetery, there was an attempt to move his remains back to Cedar City. Because of that, his remains were left in the basement of the Brinkerhoff Hotel for 27 years until they were finally buried in the new Thatcher cemetery. Pretty cool story. That is a great addition to what I was told. It is wonderful how these old stories have a common heritage and background. I hope to get up there soon and check out the cemetery, as well as the hotel. Hotel or courthouse the story is fascinating and my time listening to Bagley's stories about the colonies was a delight. BTW, there is still tension here among descendants about the MMM participants who came here to live or to escape notoriety in the US. Another fellow, not connected to the massacre, but to wonderful folklore in Dublan was James Nathaniel Walker. In spite of great effort, I haven't begun to solve his mystery! His is a story for another day! 1
Scott Lloyd Posted October 1, 2021 Posted October 1, 2021 5 hours ago, gmormon said: I hope there are still plans to do it. I would like to see the documentations, for the trials of John D Lee, and also why none of the others where brought to trial. I too want to know more about the trials and more about the coverup. The first book pretty well established Brigham Young was not at fault for the massacre and even sent instructions not to interfere with the emigrants. Obviously a coverup ensued. Critics have been trying for many years to pin that on President Young. I want to know how much he knew and when he knew it. 2
Kenngo1969 Posted October 1, 2021 Posted October 1, 2021 8 hours ago, gmormon said: I hope there are still plans to do it. I would like to see the documentations, for the trials of John D Lee, and also why none of the others where brought to trial. Long time no see, gmormon. I'm glad that streak has been broken. I hope you come by more often.
gmormon Posted October 1, 2021 Posted October 1, 2021 I have been here all along....i try not to comment to much ...don't want to show off my ignorance to much🙊🙉🙈
Tweed1944 Posted October 4, 2021 Posted October 4, 2021 Why did it take so long for Lee to be brought to justice.?
katherine the great Posted October 4, 2021 Posted October 4, 2021 1 hour ago, Tweed1944 said: Why did it take so long for Lee to be brought to justice.? In a nutshell: Confusion, then denial, then the Civil War and reconstruction, then the slow wheels of justice began to turn. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted October 4, 2021 Posted October 4, 2021 1 hour ago, Tweed1944 said: Why did it take so long for Lee to be brought to justice.? The details were not brought to light for a time because of a coverup by local settlers. Meanwhile, Lee and others became fugitives from justice. After Lee was eventually apprehended, there were two consecutive trials. The first one was bungled by government prosecutors who were hostile to the Church and its leaders and tried to pin the massacre on them instead of the actual perpetrators. Not surprisingly, that ended with a hung jury and was declared a mistrial. In the second trial, Lee was convicted. Subsequently executed, he was the only person ever punished for the massacre.
Tweed1944 Posted October 6, 2021 Posted October 6, 2021 Didn't the LDS church under David O McKay readmit Lee into the LDS church?
smac97 Posted October 6, 2021 Posted October 6, 2021 7 hours ago, Tweed1944 said: Didn't the LDS church under David O McKay readmit Lee into the LDS church? Apparently so. In 1961, to be precise. See here and here. Thanks, -Smac
Scott Lloyd Posted October 6, 2021 Posted October 6, 2021 (edited) 9 hours ago, Tweed1944 said: Didn't the LDS church under David O McKay readmit Lee into the LDS church? At a Mormon History Association Conference, I heard Rick Turkey address this question (he’s one of the authors of Massacre at Mountain Meadows ). The gist of his response was that Lee’s descendants petitioned the Church for his rebaptism. The leadership permitted it in the interest of letting God be the judge. That is to say, the physical ordinance has been performed and it is now up to the Almighty whether or not to ratify it. Added later: It occurs to me that since it’s our endeavor as a people to search out as many of our kindred dead as we can and have their ordinances performed vicariously, there have probably been a host of scoundrels and blackguards from history who’ve had baptisms performed for them. Again, God will be the final judge. Edited October 6, 2021 by Scott Lloyd
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