Massive wealth of the church of jesus christ of latter-day saints

[Fether]

4 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Yea I used to believe having access to prophets meant something. Thank you for confirming that they really have no better information access than you or me.  

It sure is fun to watch LDS defenders toss their prophets, seers and revelators under the bus.

I’m sorry you have such a black and white view on it all.

Try reading scripture some time. It may help you understand the nature of prophets 

[Teancum]

27 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

In response to the opening post:

1.  Should I care about other people's wealth?  Should I get bent out of shape about how much money the University of California has in its endowment fund, sitting?  (I contribute there.)  Should I get bent out of shape over the fact that Hillary Clinton lost despite the money I contributed to her?

2.  D&C 42 clearly says that once money is contributed to the church, the person making the contribution loses all right to get it back.  Should I get bent out of shape?

3.  How accurate is the supposed "whistleblower"?  Have his claims ever been substantiated?  I haven't seen anything.

4.  Do I have a right to tell the Knights of Columbus, or PETA, how to spend their charitable contributions?

I guess it comes down to this.  It isn't my money.  I make enough money.  I don't need to be envious of other people's money.  I also understand the concept of an "endowment," after serving on a university's endowment funds committee.  You never touch the principal, no matter what.  I may not be the most active Saint in the world, but I just can't understand the envy.

1: You can care or not care. The interest here is the church that claims to be the church of Jesus Christ is one of the most wealthy organizations on the planet.  For those who give, or have given substantial sums without understanding what the funds are used for, well they may care.  It is not the same  as caring about some random other person's wealth.

2: I don't expect to get the $$ back I gave. But I sure as heck don't give the church tithing $$ anymore.  I prefer to give to organizations that I feel are more apt to help mitigate human suffering.

3: Who knows how accurate this is?  It seems reasonable. And as for the stock fund the church has sort of acknowledged that the amounts are accurate.

4: The only right you have is to vote with where you put your $$.

I have no envy.  Not one whit. I think it is pretty amazing really.  But I am not giving anymore of my $$ to a Church that seems to have a need to acquire and hold massive amounts of wealth and it does seem to contradict what the person whose name the church claims taught about such things.

[Teancum]

6 minutes ago, Fether said:

I’m sorry you have such a black and white view on it all.

Try reading scripture some time. It may help you understand the nature of prophets 

I simply understand what they teach about themselves.  You know, follow the brethren and all that. 

[Bob Crockett]

4 minutes ago, Teancum said:

1: You can care or not care. The interest here is the church that claims to be the church of Jesus Christ is one of the most wealthy organizations on the planet.  For those who give, or have given substantial sums without understanding what the funds are used for, well they may care.  It is not the same  as caring about some random other person's wealth.

2: I don't expect to get the $$ back I gave. But I sure as heck don't give the church tithing $$ anymore.  I prefer to give to organizations that I feel are more apt to help mitigate human suffering.

3: Who knows how accurate this is?  It seems reasonable. And as for the stock fund the church has sort of acknowledged that the amounts are accurate.

4: The only right you have is to vote with where you put your $$.

I have no envy.  Not one whit. I think it is pretty amazing really.  But I am not giving anymore of my $$ to a Church that seems to have a need to acquire and hold massive amounts of wealth and it does seem to contradict what the person whose name the church claims taught about such things.

It seems you are envious.  Who gives a crap, really.  Don't give the church your money.  Fine with me.  Who should care?

[Teancum]

2 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

It seems you are envious.  Who gives a crap, really.  Don't give the church your money.  Fine with me.  Who should care?

No Bob  I am not envious one  whit. But if it helps you to conclude that more power to you. And I don't give the church my money anymore, or my time.

[Stargazer]

44 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Members do enough.  Adding cleaning the church on top of all that is asked is really silly and even egregious.  Especially given the fact that the church is not hurting for $$.  THe idea that members need to clean the church to be humble and teachable is well, ludicrous.

My late wife, after her divorce from her first husband, was in need of an income to support herself and her seven children (child support alone wasn't sufficient). She heard from her bishop that there was a position open as meetinghouse custodian for her own meetinghouse, and he urged her to apply. She did, and got the job. Interestingly, she was later told by the person who offered her the position (who at the time didn't know her from Adam -- or Eve), that he passed over several male candidates with better credentials and experience and hired her because of a definite spiritual impression to do so.

As she told it to me, her experience was that the members (as a group, with some exceptions) didn't truly appreciate her labors and took little care in contributing to keeping the place clean and in order. They seemed to expect that they could do what they wanted in the space, and the "hired help" could clean up the messes they made. In other words, many members were acting like entitled jerks in respect of the house of the Lord.

In my personal opinion, having participated frequently in building cleanup in preparation for Sabbath services makes me more conscious of my responsibility in regards to the Lord's house, and makes me better appreciate the labor that goes into maintaining it. And I absolutely reject your contention that it is ludicrous to expect that "members need to clean the church to be humble and teachable". Some of them definitely need it. I will concede that some of those who might need it the most aren't helping out because it's "beneath them". But that tells a cautionary tale, too, doesn't it?

By the way, I have to thank you for bringing this topic up again. Despite my initial eye-rolling feeling of "oh gosh here we go again", I am quite pumped to see that the church seems to have not just in excess of $100 billion in reserve, but by golly in excess of $300 billion! Woo hoo! Great news! I can't wait until it's a $TRILLION! Makes me even more willing to pay tithing, I have to say.

Bishop T, I used to be so ticked off at your postings that for a time I blocked your posts from being seen by me. Last year I repented of my narrowmindedness, and now I enjoy your posts again. Well, that might be stretching it a bit sometimes, but nevertheless, keep it up. 

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

So what is different about this article? Same story. Same sources used. Same general conclusion in the article.

Nothing different. Some things just need to be beat to death, and there are plenty of resentful or jealous folks out there who refuse to contribute but still insist upon beating that dead horse to... whatever it is dead horses end up as.

[Teancum]

10 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

My late wife, after her divorce from her first husband, was in need of an income to support herself and her seven children (child support alone wasn't sufficient). She heard from her bishop that there was a position open as meetinghouse custodian for her own meetinghouse, and he urged her to apply. She did, and got the job. Interestingly, she was later told by the person who offered her the position (who at the time didn't know her from Adam -- or Eve), that he passed over several male candidates with better credentials and experience and hired her because of a definite spiritual impression to do so.

As she told it to me, her experience was that the members (as a group, with some exceptions) didn't truly appreciate her labors and took little care in contributing to keeping the place clean and in order. They seemed to expect that they could do what they wanted in the space, and the "hired help" could clean up the messes they made. In other words, many members were acting like entitled jerks in respect of the house of the Lord.

In my personal opinion, having participated frequently in building cleanup in preparation for Sabbath services makes me more conscious of my responsibility in regards to the Lord's house, and makes me better appreciate the labor that goes into maintaining it. And I absolutely reject your contention that it is ludicrous to expect that "members need to clean the church to be humble and teachable". Some of them definitely need it. I will concede that some of those who might need it the most aren't helping out because it's "beneath them". But that tells a cautionary tale, too, doesn't it?

By the way, I have to thank you for bringing this topic up again. Despite my initial eye-rolling feeling of "oh gosh here we go again", I am quite pumped to see that the church seems to have not just in excess of $100 billion in reserve, but by golly in excess of $300 billion! Woo hoo! Great news! I can't wait until it's a $TRILLION! Makes me even more willing to pay tithing, I have to say.

Bishop T, I used to be so ticked off at your postings that for a time I blocked your posts from being seen by me. Last year I repented of my narrowmindedness, and now I enjoy your posts again. Well, that might be stretching it a bit sometimes, but nevertheless, keep it up. 

Well I am sorry my posts annoyed  you enough to block me at one point.  And hey if you want to help the LDS Church accumulate more wealth more power to you.  It is your  money.  Just so you know I when I was active I did my stint cleaning even though I did not like the idea.

[Fether]

27 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I simply understand what they teach about themselves.  You know, follow the brethren and all that. 

If you are interpreting that quote as meaning definitively one day there won’t be tithing anymore, you are interpreting it in a way that no body else does.

Prophets and Apostles have personal preferences all the time. A Prophet’s wish or hope does not dictate doctrine

[Teancum]

14 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Nothing different. Some things just need to be beat to death, and there are plenty of resentful or jealous folks out there who refuse to contribute but still insist upon beating that dead horse to... whatever it is dead horses end up as.

Not resentful at all. Just find in interesting. And fascinating. Were I active I would likely cheer it on. But for me, it does confirm my decision to donate my $$ to other causes that really will focus on relieving human suffering. That has become important to me. Tithing just adds to the wealth of one of the most wealth organizations on the planet. That falls outside my personal value system.  But yea the self proclaimed Church of Jesus, the man who had nowhere to rest his head, has been incredibly successful by worldly standards in accumulating massive wealth.  Hurray for them.  

[Teancum]

2 minutes ago, Fether said:

If you are interpreting that quote as meaning definitively one day there won’t be tithing anymore, you are interpreting it in a way that no body else does.

Prophets and Apostles have personal preferences all the time. A Prophet’s wish or hope does not dictate doctrine

Feel free to argue with Joseph F Smith if you want. 

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, Fether said:

A mistake

From what I understand, the church during that period was struggling financially so tithing was a “we need money” principle. Additionally, I don’t think the church was in a position to fully realize it’s role in the last days until it was in a place to start growing financially. You aren’t thinking about building a multi-billion dollar organization to prepare for Armageddon when you are struggling to keep church buildings running.

I don’t, nor should anyone (except someone who is trying to trip up the church) take every word spoken from the pulpit as the exact word of God.

The quote does seem to say that this was something "the Brethren" had been discussing at the time in terms of a hoped-for possibility. And it wasn't just something JFS was ruminating upon as a personal opinion or desire.

I deployed my calculator on the $300 billion with 7% ROI (annual, I presume) and came up with $21 billion annual income. This might be sufficient to allow the church to tell members they can leave off paying tithing for the time being, as the JFS quote seems to be saying, except for two points:

1. JFS was saying this during a time when members were not only paying tithing, but funding their stake and ward budgets as well, and likely was referring to those budget contributions, which were in excess of tithing.
2. JFS could not have been alluding to leaving off on paying tithing, for the simple reason that neither he nor the church can declare the Lord's commandment of tithing as discontinued, since tithing is something which has been required of members from the beginning of time (first mentioned in connection with Abraham paying tithes), nor fast offering, because charity to those in need has likewise been commanded by the Lord from the beginning. With the ancient custom of a duty to one's guests being one aspect.

We will paying tithing even in the Millennium, because it's an eternal principle.

 

[let’s roll]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

So how do you reconcile this comment from a prophet:

"Furthermore, I want to say to you, we may not be able to reach it right away, but we expect to see the day when we will not have to ask you for one dollar of donation for any purpose, except that which you volunteer to give of your own accord, because we will have tithes sufficient in the storehouse of the Lord to pay everything that is needful for the advancement of the kingdom of God. I want to live to see that day, if the Lord will spare my life. It does not make any difference, though, so far as that is concerned, whether I live or not. That is the true policy, the true purpose of the Lord in the management of the affairs of His Church." --Pres. Joseph Fielding Smith (1907)

 

Hasn’t this been fulfilled?  What donation is asked for today other than those which are given of our own accord?  The day has passed when members were given “building assessments” in order that Church buildings could be constructed.  As President Smith foresaw, buildings are now funded wholly out of the storehouse of the Lord.

[Stargazer]

52 minutes ago, Teancum said:

it does seem to contradict what the person whose name the church claims taught about such things.

What did Jesus teach about "such things" that you feel contradicts what the church is doing?

[Fether]

2 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Feel free to argue with Joseph F Smith if you want. 

There will be no need to. One, he is dead. And two, when I can talk to him about it, we will likely be in a place where the will of the Lord is clear.

As for now, the argument you and many others make is very weak, uninformed on the purpose and principle of tithing, and based in the assumption that the church is not what it claims to be.

[Teancum]

2 minutes ago, Fether said:

There will be no need to. One, he is dead. And two, when I can talk to him about it, we will likely be in a place where the will of the Lord is clear.

As for now, the argument you and many others make is very weak, uninformed on the purpose and principle of tithing, and based in the assumption that the church is not what it claims to be.

Ah Fether, little do you know about me and what I understand and don't understand. Have a nice day.

[Teancum]

5 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

What did Jesus teach about "such things" that you feel contradicts what the church is doing?

I think it is pretty clear Jesus of Nazareth did not condone the accumulation of massive wealth.  Do you really want to drill into that?

[Stargazer]

48 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

It seems you are envious.

I don't perceive that he's envious. Perhaps indignant. He seems to see it as a violation of principle, an opinion he's entitled freely to have. Even though I disagree, and really don't know why he bothers so much, I guess I can understand it. 

[Stargazer]

24 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I did my stint cleaning even though I did not like the idea.

Good for you, sir. I'm not particularly enamored at cleaning up after other people, either, but (sigh) it has to be done, and so someone has to do it.

[Fether]

16 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Ah Fether, little do you know about me and what I understand and don't understand. Have a nice day.

One day I hope to be as wise

[MiserereNobis]

I’m bummed that y’all have more money than the Catholic Church. Now when the Protestants talk about the great whore of Babylon, they’ll no longer point their fingers at us 😎

[let’s roll]

6 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Feel free to argue with Joseph F Smith if you want. 

You invite people to explain how they reconcile the statement made by President Smith and then when someone provides their reconciliation you claim they’re arguing with Pres. Smith.  The reconciliation provided wasn’t arguing with Pres. Smith.  If you perceived an argument in the response it was likely with the inference that the statement was irreconcilable.

[Bob Crockett]

19 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Good for you, sir. I'm not particularly enamored at cleaning up after other people, either, but (sigh) it has to be done, and so someone has to do it.

I don't like cleaning either and I wish we didn't have to do it.

I was called to clean a couple of weeks ago.  I interrupted my usual Saturday morning workout routine to do it.  I showed up.  Building all locked up.  I texted the sister that called me to it; she never responded.  

[Teancum]

8 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

You invite people to explain how they reconcile the statement made by President Smith and then when someone provides their reconciliation you claim they’re arguing with Pres. Smith.  The reconciliation provided wasn’t arguing with Pres. Smith.  If you perceived an argument in the response it was likely with the inference that the statement was irreconcilable.

I think it is pretty clear what he said. 

[Bob Crockett]

26 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I think it is pretty clear Jesus of Nazareth did not condone the accumulation of massive wealth.  Do you really want to drill into that?

Well that's an odd statement since the NT mentions bequests made to the church by the deceased.