smac97 Posted June 15, 2021 Author Posted June 15, 2021 6 minutes ago, CA Steve said: What see in distinctions like this, and I am really not trying to offend here, is magic is what others do, while miracles is what we do. Sort of like "My church is a religion, your church is a cult"? Thanks, -Smac 1
jkwilliams Posted June 15, 2021 Posted June 15, 2021 30 minutes ago, smac97 said: I thought the video was worth watching, and thought it might spur some discussion on the topic of atheistic critiques of theism. I have used this board for many years to examine and re-examine what I believe and why. Some of this includes assessing countervailing points of view. I didn't start this thread to clutch pearls, but to examine an argument critical of my faith. If it turns out that the argument is specious because it is intended principally to provoke offense rather than make a substantive point of reasoned argument, so be it. But if there is a reasoned argument, I'd like to examine it. As it is, framing the issue in deliberately provocative terms does tend to undermine the idea that there is a serious point to be made. Thanks, -Smac But as you said yourself, it isn't an argument critical of your faith. It's either a pejorative conversation stopper or a fundamental inability to deal with arguments of faith. As I said, I don't get it, but carry on.
jkwilliams Posted June 15, 2021 Posted June 15, 2021 10 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: ...But at least he is not alone 🤨 Nah, I don't go out of my way to get insulted anymore. I stopped responding to yours.
mfbukowski Posted June 15, 2021 Posted June 15, 2021 11 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: Nah, I don't go out of my way to get insulted anymore. I stopped responding to yours. What a kind and thoughtful reply!
jkwilliams Posted June 15, 2021 Posted June 15, 2021 (edited) 40 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: What a kind and thoughtful reply! Just the truth. I stopped letting it get to me. I enjoy this board a lot more since then. In all sincerity, I don't harbor any ill will anymore toward you. I chalk it up to neither one of us being able to converse with civility with each other. My fault as much as anyone's. Edited June 15, 2021 by jkwilliams
smac97 Posted June 15, 2021 Author Posted June 15, 2021 20 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: But as you said yourself, it isn't an argument critical of your faith. Well, that's the thing. 20 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: It's either a pejorative conversation stopper or a fundamental inability to deal with arguments of faith. That's how I view it, yes. But if there is some underlying point of reasoned argument, I would like to understand it. 20 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: As I said, I don't get it, but carry on. Okey doke. Thanks, -Smac
CA Steve Posted June 15, 2021 Posted June 15, 2021 28 minutes ago, smac97 said: Sort of like "My church is a religion, your church is a cult"? Thanks, -Smac I think that analogy is close but I think cult, carries more baggage than magic now. I also think the distinction between magic and priesthood is not one Joseph Smith would have considered important. I think he clearly believed and employed things like magic circles, parchments, daggers, stones and so on without considering it a conflict with religion. It seems we make such distinctions now based on those practices with which we are uncomfortable. Is dowsing magic? 4
bluebell Posted June 16, 2021 Posted June 16, 2021 21 minutes ago, CA Steve said: I think that analogy is close but I think cult, carries more baggage than magic now. I also think the distinction between magic and priesthood is not one Joseph Smith would have considered important. I think he clearly believed and employed things like magic circles, parchments, daggers, stones and so on without considering it a conflict with religion. It seems we make such distinctions now based on those practices with which we are uncomfortable. Is dowsing magic? I don't see the use of the term magic in reference to religious things outright offensive. I think it's viewed as offensive when it's used flippantly by atheists because religious people understand that they are trying to be offensive when they use it. Sincerely used, I don't think the word is offensive at all. I do think it's confusing and therefore much less useful in a conversation about religion, since magic in this day and age has a general connotation that implies the results are due to an appeal to the natural world or other pagan means. Or it connotes a guy in a top hat using special effects and slight of hand to fool people and entertaining at birthday parties. Neither one represents the ideas of religious miracles or priesthood power as believed by those who appeal to them very accurately. 1
Calm Posted June 16, 2021 Posted June 16, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, CA Steve said: What see in distinctions like this, and I am really not trying to offend here, is magic is what others do, while miracles is what we do. I would disagree. I think for Saints at least unexplainable events claimed by other faiths that are not seen as acceptable (visions perhaps) are seen as either unexplainable coincidences or false miracles (being lied about). I have never heard them referred to as “magic” by members. Magic is reserved it seems to me to spell casting type of behaviour. I don’t remember hearing it used any other way by members. So far this from 1974 is the only serious discussion of “magic” on the church’s website I can find. There is a magic listing in the scripture index. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1974/03/searching-the-scriptures?lang=eng Edited June 16, 2021 by Calm 1
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