Bombshell BYU announcement

[Robert F. Smith]

23 hours ago, rongo said:

I really enjoyed my years at BYU (1993-1999), but to me, it isn't the same school now as the one I attended then. Although my oldest was accepted, he turned down the half-tuition offered for a full-ride somewhere else. I still follow and root for BYU in sports, but our other children aren't even considering attending BYU. In our circle of friends and acquaintances, there has been a big uptick in rejections for admission or transfer at BYU. Rejections have always been there, as BYU is highly competitive, but I've never seen it to this extent. 5 out of 6 in my son's MTC district were rejected, as well as several others in his mission. Several of my daughter's friends at NAU who had applied for a transfer have also been turned down. My son's "girlfriend" (we don't allow steady dating in high school, but they would if they could) was really down when she got her rejection. 

I think part of it is probably a large group of students who deferred this Covid year, but are returning next year. It's probably harder than ever for Utahns to be accepted.

When  I reluctantly came to BYU in  1963, they would literally take anybody -- even an idiot like me with poor HS grades.  There were very few Mormons back in those days, millions more today.  That is why they can be more selective.

23 hours ago, rongo said:

I also think that another possible factor is this bombshell announcement from BYU:

https://www.deseret.com/faith/2021/2/26/22303466/official-committee-says-byu-must-root-out-racism-without-delay-provo-utah

There are clearly going to be affirmative action quotas designed to increase enrollment in targeted demographic groups, and this will lead to increases in rejections for other students who otherwise might have gotten in. Whether or not this has played a role yet in this year admissions, I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did --- even though it's not fully implemented yet.

The end of the article contains the 26 point action item list. Here is my summary/translation of them. I realize that some might take issue with my editorializing or paraphrasing (out of PC legalese gobblety-gook), but this is a discussion board  

BYU’s Committee on Race and Equity released a 63 page report explaining 26 action items that it says must be implemented „without delay“ to bring about „historic, transformative change“ to BYU Provo.

1. Create an Office of Diversity.

2. Create a new position of Vice President of Diversity.

3. Give these new positions authority and „teeth.“

4. Develop and implement training programs on diversity, equity, and racism for administrators, faculty and staff, and students.

5. Change the curriculum for general education, religion, and elective classes to educate about racism and diversity.

6. Update the current „Aims of a BYU Education“ to reflect these changes.

7. Promote and implement „Fostering an Enriched Environment Policy“ (making BYU less racist) throughout the university.

8. Instruct colleges and departments to change mission statements to reflect these changes.

9. Establish a permanent committee to advance equity for BIPOC (black, indigenous, and people of color) faculty and students.

10. Create „strategic initiatives for recruitment, admission, scholarships, financial aid, retention, and success“ for BIPOC students (i.e., quotas -- numbers have to go up, no matter what).

11. „Form a Recruitment, Admissions, and Student Success Committee“ to implement #10.

12. Develop a strategic plan to increase graduation rates for BIPOC students.

13. Recruit and attract more BIPOC students to BYU.

14. Perform an independent evaluation of the admissions process – especially weighting – to make it more „holistic“ and enable more BIPOC students to qualify for admissions (i.e., lower standards, at least for affirmative action students).

15. Have the legal department/BYU Counsel „evaluate the legal parameters of a race-conscious admissions model for BYU“ (i.e., make sure we don't run afoul of affirmative action laws, reverse-discrimination, etc.)

16. Endow a Jane Manning James and Elijah Able scholarship for BIPOC students.

17. Create other scholarships for BIPOC students.

18. Create a more robust process for students to report incidents of racism at BYU.

19. Have a more „holistic“ standard for BIPOC students for prestigious scholarships (i.e., put the thumb on the scale for BIPOC students, but not for whites and Asians).

20. Establish a visible, permanent „safe space“ on campus for „underrepresented groups.“

21. Ensure that the honor code is applied with „cultural competence and sensitivity.“ (i.e., avoid being accused of racism if a BIPOC student runs afoul of the honor code. In practice, this means a different standard for them than for white or Asian students). 

22. Recruit, attract, and retain more BIPOC faculty to BYU. (i.e., affirmative action in hiring)

23. Assist and incentivize BIPOC students who want to pursue graduate school. (i.e., affirmative action in grad school admissions)

24. Attract more BIPOC PhD. students to present and conduct their research at BYU.

25. Reduce „cultural taxation burdens“ for BIPOC faculty at BYU. (This bizarre PC expression refers to BIPOC faculty feeling judged or culturally uncomfortable within the dominant BYU LDS culture). 

26. Promote more BIPOC faculty into senior administrative positions at BYU. (i.e., affirmative action in administration).............

This recipe for wokeness has proven very counterproductive elsewhere, and even disastrous for schools such as Evergreen College.  At the Ivy League colleges, it has meant strong anti-Asian acceptance rates.  It is almost as though we have gone back to the old quota system, e.g., limiting the number of Jews and women in colleges a century ago.  However, careful analysis has now shown that the Ivy League college reputation is vastly overblown.  One can actually do much better financially in the future by going to an excellent non-Ivy League college -- say CUNY, or UC Berkeley.

By extension, and according to the late Hugh Nibley, one is much better off getting an education at a non-BYU campus where rigorous scholastic standards are upheld.  This includes many state colleges.  One must be cautious in selection.  Nibley, for example, got his college education in the Univ of California system.

What would also help would be a system of scholarships for LDS students choosing to go to any college anywhere in the world.  If the Brethren want to see young LDS couples getting married and having children, they need to fully support such a program.  Student debt will stop that cold, and LDS growth rates will continue to slow.

[Calm]

6 hours ago, rongo said:

"Holistic" in education, and in this BYU action plan, means "not slavishly adhering to a rigid high standard in selected cases, but rather, putting our thumb on the scale for 'socioeconomic hardship' or 'adverse life experiences' in lieu of the former rigid high standards when it will help the new quota." It's a complete buzzword, which is why it evokes the reaction that it does. 

You keep ignoring that it doesn’t have to be lowering important standards, but may include changing standards to include a broader set of equally or more important, gospel oriented standards. The program may focus on reaching out to BIPOC to make BYU more appealing, offering more scholarships to those who meet the standards you appear to insist are some sacred ox that needs to be kept in place less BYU is filled with a lesser quality of student. There are high achieving students that still can’t afford BYU due to being low income, parents already working a couple of jobs, etc. 

Even if they decide to stick with those academic standards as is, there are also students that would meet the current academic standards if they were also able to pay for music lessons or sports activities, but cannot either afford such or cannot attend those courses that offer assistance in prepping for the ACT that many students take to raise their qualifications.  These students might depend on scholarships to attend university and just never think of apply to BYU because of the view outside of the Church that it is racist.  If BYU would court academic BIPOC students like they do for sports students, offering more total financial aid packages, that may widen the field of applicants enough to ensure academic standards are met. 

Otoh, they may indeed lower the amount they weight academic standards and instead add qualifiers they look at to add a better overall balanced picture such as how long a family has been actively involved church members or if the student is a returned missionary who has stayed active or the only member in their family but still attends as much as they can solely through their own efforts rather than parents pushing their kids into the car and driving them to and from all activities, waiting in the parking lot during seminary to then drive them to school; family and student contributions to their local ward and branches; volunteer work, etc...the kind of standards that we need for members who will be strong leadership to help build strong wards.  Being great at academics doesn’t mean someone has a righteous or charitable heart or a gospel centered life.  That type of student is harder to find and more precious for it imo. 
 

They may also chose to give more credit for work ethic measured directly rather than primarily through grades as a B from someone who has managed those grades on their own while working an afternoon job or two with parents who are also working multiple jobs to support their families because it takes more raw talent and higher work ethics for many to get that B than for many of those As student to get their grades as they have a support system of college educated parents who are able to not only volunteer at school and help with/push the homework, but also arrange for extra tutoring sessions after school, pays for special test taking prep classes, etc. 

I know many BYU students whose parents were centered around their child, where a stay at home parents was chauffeur, tutor, music or sports coach, personal trainer all in one.  It is the parent that got those As, etc more than the kid.  Often they have produced a committed child as well, but I have seen many who are not committed to academic excellence but just want a job that pays well and see the Church in terms of what it can do for them rather than wanting to build the kingdom.

It takes much more effort and investment to look at all a student has accomplished rather than easily measured standards such as GPA, seminary attendance (often solely done in order to get parents off their back, not because of personal commitment to the gospel or desiring to study scriptures),  nice writing skills with those essays, and test taking ability.  And a student who highly values family and community, who is told BYU wards will be very different from their home wards, may be very wary of attending a school where they are told racism is prevalent, especially if they must room with strangers while attending.  In the end getting more students of BIPOC may turn out to be more about the student being willing to put their thumb on the scale for BYU rather than the reverse. 

Edited March 2, 2021 by Calm

[CV75]

2 hours ago, rongo said:

 

BYU has always had an extensive international outreach and cadre of international students. If the intent of this were increasing international students, I don't think there would have been a 63 page report with the 26 action items. They simple would have announced an initiative to increase the number of international students. 

The big tell is such terms as "BIPOC," or "root out racism without delay," or "cultural taxation burdens" and the like. A "Jane Manning James" or "Elijah Abel" scholarship isn't targeted at international students; these names are clearly aimed at a specific domestic United States audience. International student outreach might have names like "Yeah Samake Scholarship," or "Ezekiel Ansah Scholarship," or "Krešimir Ćosić Scholarship." Actually, Ćosić wasn't "BIPOC," so probably not him.  

This whole thing is pretty clearly about appeasing the clamor for U.S. "diversity" and "equity," not increasing international enrollment. 

When I say "from around the world" I'm including minorities in the USA, who now that you mention it are often treated as if they are from another country/planet. But "Multicultural Student Services, International Student and Scholar Services and the Office of Student Success and Inclusion" are included in the recommendations listed in the article. A good deal of the article's emphasis is placed on issues common to racism in the USA, and the survey does highlight the inequitable treatment of women and non-White students and employees, but that does not diminish the positive effects for international students and employees.

If you want to focus on what you describe as "appeasing the clamor for U.S. "diversity" and "equity," I see the direction that BYU is taking in this regard as a positive thing, not for political and social reasons but for actively taking President Nelson's counsel to heart.

[Calm]

12 hours ago, Islander said:

The problem is that about 80% of those that come from other countries to BYU remain in the US and never return to their countries of origin.

While not great for their home countries, why is this a problem?  The Church in the US likely greatly benefits with the immigration of church members from around the world. 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, rongo said:

"Holistic" in education, and in this BYU action plan, means "not slavishly adhering to a rigid high standard in selected cases, but rather, putting our thumb on the scale for 'socioeconomic hardship' or 'adverse life experiences' in lieu of the former rigid high standards when it will help the new quota." It's a complete buzzword, which is why it evokes the reaction that it does. 

Right...because that is exactly how they spelled out what they would do. 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, rongo said:

BIPOC placements will be at the expense of non-BIPOC applicants who otherwise would/could have gotten the spot.

And white kids are more likely to deserve getting help from the Church than BIPOC?

Edited March 2, 2021 by Calm

[rongo]

52 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It's really hard to spin "root out racism" into something negative.

To the extent that racism needs rooting out, I think everyone is for that. The negative I see is that I think this is much, much more about appeasing certain liberal trends in higher education and society (and some vocal people in the BYU community) than it is about addressing a real pressing problem. It's much more about show (hence the cringey buzzwords. "Cultural taxation burden?").

I don't personally see this response as being comensurate with whatever racism problem BYU has --- I think it's much more trying to score points with certain social currents and keep the "eye of Sauron" away.

I agree with smac. I think this will "foment further racial divisions and resentments."

52 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Are you worried that not as many white kids will be accepted now?

Not as many "any" kids, not white or anything else. This doesn't have to do with race for me, but rather, with the ultra-competitiveness and despair of the BYU acceptance process (and scholarships). And now, privileged groups who need help to qualify, at the expense of other kids (of any race) who are pushed out in the zero sum game.

Before any of this, if you were an LDS "BIPOC" student with decent grades, went to seminary, had decent test scores and a decent GPA profile, you were in, and you were already privileged for scholarships. This isn't about those kids whom BYU already coveted and tried to get. They want to increase BIPOC enrollment beyond this, and have an action plan to alter the criteria selectively so that more BIPOC students can get in, get more scholarships, etc. --- but without the stringent GPA, ACT/SAT, accomplishments, etc.  of the other students. That's what "holistic" and "socioeconomic hardship" or "adverse life experiences" means --- it means that kids who have dreamed of going to BYU and are very accomplished will not get in because they want to meet affirmative action quotas.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, rongo said:

I'm astonished that you see "root out racism without delay" as denoting increasing the international footprint at BYU. The international footprint has always been there; this is dancing to the "diversity/equity" industrial complex pistol-whipping. I'm disappointed BYU is playing along, complete with the buzzwords. 

Global means including all communities, such as communities in the US that have been neglected in the past. 

[CV75]

2 hours ago, rongo said:

I'm astonished that you see "root out racism without delay" as denoting increasing the international footprint at BYU. The international footprint has always been there; this is dancing to the "diversity/equity" industrial complex pistol-whipping. I'm disappointed BYU is playing along, complete with the buzzwords. 

The two issues are certainly more different than the same, but they do overlap and have a good deal of commonality as borne out in the survey and recommendations.  But focusing on racism in the USA, with BYU acknowledging its existence in its own USA-based institution (just as the Church recognized it in the essays), I see as an authentic self-reflection following the example and counsel from President Nelson.

[smac97]

35 minutes ago, juliann said:

Quote

#16 is tacit, I think.  It references "prestigious scholarship recipients," but I really doubt white and Asian candidates will be considered.

This only works if there weren't already a bizillion scholarships at BYU that white and Asian candidates have used (my white daughter among them.) 

But those bizillion scholarships have nothing to do with race, right?  Can you show me a single scholarship reserved for White candidates?  

If there were Whites-only scholarships, or Asian-only scholarships, those would be legitimate counterbalances to the "prestigious scholarship recipients" that are, I think, going to be restricted to "BIPOC" candidates (that is, anyone except White and Asian persons).  

35 minutes ago, juliann said:

How about we do it by numbers instead.

Do what by numbers?

35 minutes ago, juliann said:

When the undesired group acquires more scholarships than the desired group, then complain? 

What is this "undesired group" you are referencing?  What is this "desired group?"

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

22 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

This recipe for wokeness has proven very counterproductive elsewhere, and even disastrous for schools such as Evergreen College.  At the Ivy League colleges, it has meant strong anti-Asian acceptance rates. 

Yep.  Asians and Jews are "honorary White" people in such circumstances.  This seems quite unfortunate, as Asians and Jews have experienced quite a bit of discriminatory behavior in history, both by governmental and private actors.  

Thanks,

-Smac

[CV75]

3 minutes ago, rongo said:

That's what "holistic" and "socioeconomic hardship" or "adverse life experiences" means --- it means that kids who have dreamed of going to BYU and are very accomplished will not get in because they want to meet affirmative action quotas.

I think it means providing opportunities and resources for more* souls who have been held back due to hardship and adversity by virtue of racism so they can meet the standard BYU has set up: "Enter to Learn; Go forth to Serve.”

*Not in excess, but reflective of the standing inequity.

[CV75]

Am I mistaken in characterizing the complaint over BYU creating the "BYU Committee on Race, Equity & Belonging" to be that this approach opens the door for a continuing reduction of white students getting into BYU, extending to a number below their representation in [name the community -- USA, Utah, world, Church]?

Edited March 2, 2021 by CV75

[smac97]

10 minutes ago, rongo said:

To the extent that racism needs rooting out, I think everyone is for that.

Well, I don't know.  I think racism against favored groups is being universally embraced.  But racism against Whites, Asians and Jews appears to be just fine.

10 minutes ago, rongo said:

The negative I see is that I think this is much, much more about appeasing certain liberal trends in higher education and society (and some vocal people in the BYU community) than it is about addressing a real pressing problem. It's much more about show (hence the cringey buzzwords. "Cultural taxation burden?").

Yes, I share that concern.

10 minutes ago, rongo said:

I don't personally see this response as being comensurate with whatever racism problem BYU has --- I think it's much more trying to score points with certain social currents and keep the "eye of Sauron" away.

I saw this on Twitter a while back: “The demand for racist hate far exceeds the supply of any racist hate incidents. Because of this, we are seeing one racial hoax charade after another.”

The signifcant number of "race hoaxes" is pretty good evidence of this.  Here's a list, one of many.  This June 2019 Op-Ed piece in the Wall Street Journal also has some sobering information:

Quote

When I asked Wilfred Reilly about last week’s appointment of a special prosecutor in Chicago to take up the Jussie Smollett case, he was cautiously optimistic. Mr. Reilly is author of a new book, “Hate Crime Hoax,” in which he details how the initial publicity for supposed hate crimes tends all but to disappear if the allegations are exposed as fake.
...
Mr. Reilly is a professor of political science at Kentucky State University, and his interest in hate crimes dates to his graduate-school days, when he became aware of several widely reported incidents in the vicinity of his hometown that turned out to be fake.
...
Mr. Reilly eventually compiled a database of 346 hate-crime allegations and determined that less than a third were genuine. Turning his attention to the hoaxes, he put together a data set of more than 400 confirmed cases of fake allegations that were reported to authorities between 2010 and 2017. He allows that the exact number of false reports is probably unknowable, but what can be said “with absolute confidence is that the actual number of hate crime hoaxes is indisputably large,” he writes. “We are not speaking here of just a few bad apples.”

The author’s bigger concern, and rightly so, is the growing politicization of hate crimes, especially when they are directed at underrepresented groups and regardless of whether they in fact happened. The sad reality is that there is no shortage of individuals and entities with a vested interest in exaggerating racial tensions in the U.S.—from civil-rights organizations to corporate diversity officers to professors of race and gender studies.

These alleged incidents are invariably seized upon by politicians and activists looking to feed a sacrosanct belief among liberals that discrimination and oppression are the main drivers of inequality. “In the mainstream media we hear almost constant talk about scary new forms of racism: ‘white privilege,’ ‘cultural appropriation,’ and ‘subtle bigotry,’ ” Mr. Reilly writes, yet “a huge percentage of the horrific hate crimes cited as evidence of contemporary bigotry are fakes.”

If “Hate Crime Hoax” merely offered examples to illustrate the extent of this phenomenon—and the book offers nearly 100—it would be providing a much-needed public service. But Mr. Reilly has a larger point to make. The Smollett case isn’t an outlier. Increasingly, it’s the norm. And the media’s relative lack of interest in exposing hoaxes that don’t involve famous figures is a big part of the problem.

Seems like academia has a vested interest in fomenting racial 

10 minutes ago, rongo said:

I agree with smac. I think this will "foment further racial divisions and resentments."

And thereby generate more fodder for critical race theorists and race hustlers.  

Thanks,

-Smac

[Calm]

16 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I think it means providing opportunities and resources for more* souls who have been held back due to hardship and adversity by virtue of racism so they can meet the standard BYU has set up: "Enter to Learn; Go forth to Serve.”

*Not in excess, but reflective of the standing inequity.

Or it may be about creating a more holistic atmosphere at BYU so BYU meets the standards of students leaning towards other schools that are cheaper for them as living expenses are lower and/or changing the view that BYU is not as able to provide for their social needs as they don’t want to go to university AND have to deal with being viewed as different, deal with racism***, etc. 

There are a lot of highly qualified BIPOC students out there.  I got to wonder how many of them even consider BYU as one of their schools of choice.   The pool may get dramatically smaller if one adds church membership to the list of student qualifications, but I think we are dreaming if we think there is as big of a desire to attend BYU among church members who are BIPOC as there is among white church members.  BYU likely needs better bait for those students than they need for families who have considered BYU as a family tradition, etc. 

Edited March 2, 2021 by Calm

[rongo]

34 minutes ago, Calm said:

While not great for their home countries, why is this a problem?  The Church in the US likely greatly benefits with the immigration of church members from around the world. 

The Church in the U.S. (and the U.S.) greatly benefits from LDS ex patriats, but it is catastrophic for the Church in the home countries. My parents' missions in Poland and the Czech Republic were a real eye-opener. 

I don't really blame sharp young people with testimonies for wanting to live where the Church is strong, your prospects of marrying in the covenant are strong, etc. But the Church wouldn't be as stagnant in many places if our strongest members weren't still drawn to North America. 

[Calm]

4 hours ago, rongo said:

The Church in the U.S. (and the U.S.) greatly benefits from LDS ex patriats, but it is catastrophic for the Church in the home countries. My parents' missions in Poland and the Czech Republic were a real eye-opener. 

I don't really blame sharp young people with testimonies for wanting to live where the Church is strong, your prospects of marrying in the covenant are strong, etc. But the Church wouldn't be as stagnant in many places if our strongest members weren't still drawn to North America. 

I agree. I think providing greater self development for lower income members around the world should be a huge priority for the Church. If we help raise up 5 young members academically, there would be less harm if one of them ended up at BYU and staying as there would still be 4 additional at home potential leaders aided in their overall growth. 

Edited March 2, 2021 by Calm

[rongo]

7 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I saw this on Twitter a while back: “The demand for racist hate far exceeds the supply of any racist hate incidents. Because of this, we are seeing one racial hoax charade after another.”

I thought about this when I read the survey responses in the Deseret News article. 7-8 out of 10 BIPOC students had no issue whatsoever with feeling or experiencing racism at BYU. For the remainder, "being stared at" was a major concern. I wonder how much of this was bona fide "staring," and how much was perceived or self-conscious. Like when inactives complain about being stared at when they come back to church, but really aren't. Perception is reality for the individual, so it's real for them, of course, but I question the rationale for the need that lies behind all of this. 

According to the article, the petition on BYU campus complaining about racism garnered 18,000 signatures (out of a student body of 34,000) --- a staggering amount. I don't think anyone would characterize that as denoting the state of racist acts and "macro" and "micro" aggressions --- I think it's much more a function of the overall liberalness of the BYU student body at present vis a vis in the past. Remember the "to the baracades!" spirit of the gay dating agitation a year ago? It doesn't represent a majority of students, but this "percolation" affects many, directly or indirectly --- especially with regards to not wanting to be accused of or seen as a troglodyte. 

Anecdotally, we've had a lot of friends and acquaintances who did not like their BYU experience (school, or the student wards). A big complaint in our circle has been a seemingly overnight shift to liberalness among the student body and faculty. Along with this, I've noticed the massive relaxing of the dress code (man-buns, long hair, beards, mustaches, etc.). At Provo --- not in Rexburg. I'm probably just a fossilizing, old-fashioned relic, but I don't like the "scuzzification" at BYU-P. 

It really isn't the school I went to, any more. 

 

[rongo]

Just now, Calm said:

I agree. I think providing greater self development for lower income members around the world should be a huge priority for the Church. If we help raise up 5 young members academically, there would be less harm if one of them ended up at BYU and staying as there would still be 4 additional potential leaders aided in their overall growth. 

But, they usually don't go back and live in their home countries. Like I said, I don't blame them, but the Church would be so much stronger in those places if they did. In many parts of the world, it is just the missionaries (and missionary couples, when they were out there) that run the local units. 

[Calm]

35 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Yep.  Asians and Jews are "honorary White" people in such circumstances.  This seems quite unfortunate, as Asians and Jews have experienced quite a bit of discriminatory behavior in history, both by governmental and private actors.  

Thanks,

-Smac

Somehow I don’t see Asians as viewing BYU much as their school of choice given their current rate of attending. 
 

“The enrolled student population at Brigham Young University-Provo is 81.9% White, 5.91% Hispanic or Latino, 3.96% Two or More Races, 1.88% Asian, 0.647% Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islanders, 0.513% Black or African American, and 0.283% American Indian or Alaska Native.”

https://datausa.io/profile/university/brigham-young-university-provo

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, rongo said:

But, they usually don't go back and live in their home countries. Like I said, I don't blame them, but the Church would be so much stronger in those places if they did. In many parts of the world, it is just the missionaries (and missionary couples, when they were out there) that run the local units. 

You are ignoring half of my point.  There are other avenues of academic assistance besides going to BYU. If the Church adds more higher education local options, such as Robert mentioned scholarships to local universities, you have advancement without moving to the States. 
 

Edited March 2, 2021 by Calm

[CV75]

48 minutes ago, rongo said:

To the extent that racism needs rooting out, I think everyone is for that. The negative I see is that I think this is much, much more about appeasing certain liberal trends in higher education and society (and some vocal people in the BYU community) than it is about addressing a real pressing problem.

Do you view the "BYU Committee on Race, Equity & Belonging" survey and recommendations as not identifying and "addressing a real problem"?

[rongo]

11 minutes ago, Calm said:

You are ignoring half of my point.  There are other avenues of academic assistance besides going to BYU. If the Church adds more higher education local options, such as Robert mentioned scholarships to local universities, you have advancement without moving to the States. 
 

I think that would be a wonderful thing --- and also something the Church isn't likely to do. 

[bluebell]

42 minutes ago, rongo said:

Not as many "any" kids, not white or anything else. This doesn't have to do with race for me, but rather, with the ultra-competitiveness and despair of the BYU acceptance process (and scholarships). And now, privileged groups who need help to qualify, at the expense of other kids (of any race) who are pushed out in the zero sum game.

How can this new policy make it so not as many 'any' kids are being accepted?  Are they accepting less kids now than before?  If they aren't then that means the same number of kids will be getting in with the new policy as got in with the old.

Really, there will always be kids who don't get in--the new policy doesn't create more of that despair (unless BYU is now letting in fewer kids over all) than existed before.  The number of kids despairing will be the same.  It's the type of kids who are despairing that will change, not the number of kids.

But seriously, if a kid has been privileged growing up, and that privilege is what is allows them to qualify for BYU, then how is it unfair to extend some of the privilege to someone else so that things are more even?  Do only some kids deserve to have privilege?  Which kids would that be?

Because what some seem to be saying is that if a kid is privileged because of their parents or their school system they grew up in or their access to different programs and sports, then that is fair.  But if a kid is privileged because the college decides to weigh non academic achievements differently in some cases, that is unfair.

Please explain how privilege is fair for some and unfair for others.  Because that seems like a double standard.

Quote

Before any of this, if you were an LDS "BIPOC" student with decent grades, went to seminary, had decent test scores and a decent GPA profile, you were in, and you were already privileged for scholarships. This isn't about those kids whom BYU already coveted and tried to get. They want to increase BIPOC enrollment beyond this, and have an action plan to alter the criteria selectively so that more BIPOC students can get in, get more scholarships, etc. --- but without the stringent GPA, ACT/SAT, accomplishments, etc.  of the other students. That's what "holistic" and "socioeconomic hardship" or "adverse life experiences" means --- it means that kids who have dreamed of going to BYU and are very accomplished will not get in because they want to meet affirmative action quotas.

And it means that kids who have also dreamed of going to BYU, who are still accomplished, but who could not fairly compete before because of reasons outside of their control, will get in.  Yay for them.

Not every kid who applies is going to get in (plenty of really accomplished students didn't get in with the old standards, as you painstakingly pointed out at the beginning of the OP) so is the real issue that the wrong kids are feeling that despair?

 

[rongo]

10 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Do you view the "BYU Committee on Race, Equity & Belonging" survey and recommendations as not identifying and "addressing a real problem"?

Largely, yes. 

I think the racism problems at BYU/in the Church and the proposed solutions are vastly overblown. I think this all has much more to do with presenting a furrowed brow and chewing on our pencil eraser to keep "the eye of Sauron" off of us, as the cancel culture witch hunts sweep through higher education. Task forces, committees, etc. shuffling papers, looking very busy indeed. 

I do think that the action items will happen. I think that there will be massive efforts to increase BIPOC enrollment, hire BIPOC faculty, promote BIPOC administrators, etc. It will be interesting to see how the demographic pie chart at BYU changes in the coming years. It will be fascinating to see to what extent non-LDS students will be sought, and if there will continue to be watering down of the religious education requirements because of this. This isn't just a BIPOC thing --- we had a wealthy German girl on our janitorial crew at the Richards Building, and Book of Mormon/Doctrine and Covenants were hard for her. She was only there (with her blue convertible) because her parents chose BYU because of the crime statistics. She became a good friend. I was always impressed that she wanted to work graveyard janitorial, even though she didn't need any money. If BYU tries to bring in large numbers of non-LDS students (of any race), that will be interesting to see the impact of that on a number of things. 

What isn't yet clear is whether this large increase is thought to be among LDS BIPOC, or non-LDS. I ***think*** it's planned on being LDS, but don't know for sure.