Bombshell BYU announcement

[smac97]

4 minutes ago, CV75 said:

What are the injustices do you see in the recommendations?  

The entire proposal is predicated on BYU implementing policies focusing on the preferential treatment of applicants, students, faculty, etc. based on race.  On slicing and dicing the opportunities and resources available to BYU-affiliated persons based on the skin color of those persons.

4 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Might these be some of the items that BYU’s President Worthen suggested require additional consideration?

I think discrimination based on race is unjust.  Race-based discrimination is the raison d'etre of the policy proposals.  

Thanks,

-Smac

[CV75]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Yes, I think you are mistaken.  I think the complaint is that race-based discrimination is bad.  And that BYU is implementing formal policies (in admissions, in faculty hiring, etc.) that discriminate based on race.

I have a good friend who had a pretty bad experience at BYU.  He was Asian, and felt pretty out of place, even though he was a member of the Church, had served a mission, etc.  I can't help but think that his experience would have been worse had he not been admitted to BYU because of his race, or if he was amitted while knowing that his race had counted against him in the process.  I would likewise feel badly for White candidates who feel - correctly, it seems - that their applications to BYU are disadvantaged solely because of the color of their skin.

I have a hard time with the idea that we should condemn discrimination by BYU against Black, Hispanic and Native American candidates (standing alone that sounds just dandy) but celebrate and embrace discrimination against White, Asian and Jewish candidates.  I think using race for or against a candidate's application 

Thanks,

-Smac

Which of the Committee's recommendations is BYU already implementing?

BYU uses the term “discrimination” in a specific way – to refer to “unlawful discrimination” as described in the policies on discrimination. It seems you are not using it in the same way.

[CV75]

1 minute ago, smac97 said:

The entire proposal is predicated on BYU implementing policies focusing on the preferential treatment of applicants, students, faculty, etc. based on race.  On slicing and dicing the opportunities and resources available to BYU-affiliated persons based on the skin color of those persons.

I think discrimination based on race is unjust.  Race-based discrimination is the raison d'etre of the policy proposals.  

Thanks,

-Smac

I'm not seeing any specifics here on "a solution to racial injustice over here that involves creating another racial injustice over there." I was expecting an example of one of the recommendations that meets that criterion. The term "racial injustice" is not used in the article or the recommendations, but "systemic injustice" which affects all, and "injustice" in general which reflect the attitudes of the survey respondents, are.

[smac97]

33 minutes ago, juliann said:

Quote

As does #15, which has the Office of Legal Counsel working to make sure that the forthcoming "race-conscious admissions model for BYU" is legal.  "Race-conscious" means, I think, race-based preferential treatment for BIPOCs.  Whites, Asians and Jews, meanwhile, will likely lose out.  That's rather the point of preferential treatment.  Preference of one candidate over another.  And that preference will be based on . . . skin color.

Which is exactly what you are doing. Hello?

I am not.  I think race-based discrimination is bad. 

I am not advocating race-based preferential treatment of applicants to BYU.  I am expressing concern about it.

FWIW, I haven't made up my mind about the policy proposals.  I am trying to sort things out by, inter alia, reading how others feel about them and also by laying out some of my own thoughts.  But one challenge in having "discussions" about race is that folks like you tend to want to silence others by overtly or impliedly accusing them of racism. 

I am opposed to racial discrimination.  I don't like it.  I am concerned that calculated and intentional race-based preferential treatment of applicants, students and faculty at BYU may create some real problems.  But because I disagree with you, you accuse me of advocating that which I am actually and specifically opposing: race-based preferential treatment.

It would be nice if you disagreed with my on the merits of my arguments, rather than go with a cheapshot intended to silence me.

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

44 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

WILL NO ONE THINK OF THE POOR OPPRESSED WHITE PEOPLE?!?!?!?!?!!

Asians are also usually losers in the race-based admissions games that are played in today's colleges and universities.  So are Jews.

Are you going to ridicule them as well?  Or is race-based ridicule okay as long as the targets of your venom are White?

Thanks,

-Smac

[Rain]

6 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Of course "holistic" has a definition, but regardless of the definition, to many people it is just a useful buzzword to lend trendiness. The real question becomes, "Are they really holistic, or do they just want things to sound like they are, without the substance thereof?"  Most modern use of the word seems to be eyewash -- used to look good without actually taking on the actual characteristic. 

Naturally, a lot of people with real-world experience of hype and awe look at those using it to describe themselves, and say, "Yeah, sure, whatever."

And thus the "crystal-gazing" comment.

Yes, there are a lot who use it in the crystal gazing way, but more and more I am finding that people are recognizing that each part affects the whole and if we don't start looking at it in a holistic many we are really dropping the ball.  I  would expect to hear "hollistic" used more how it was meant to be used as we go on.   

One example that shows the church was already looking in this way was the new program announced in 2019.  

 

 

[smac97]

11 minutes ago, CV75 said:

BYU uses the term “discrimination” in a specific way –

Right.  Code words are standard fare in this sort of thing.  Doesn't really change the underlying situation.

11 minutes ago, CV75 said:

to refer to “unlawful discrimination” as described in the policies on discrimination.

Well, sure.  That's rather the point, right?  To find ways to make race-based discrimination legal?

11 minutes ago, CV75 said:

It seems you are not using it in the same way.

I think I am.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Calm]

3 hours ago, rongo said:

The starfish on the shore analogy. "It mattered to that one." There will be starfish for whom it matters a great deal who would have gotten in, but won't now because it's zero-sum, as you point out.

Continuing the analogy, looks like you want people to focus on the starfish that are closer to the ocean already rather than the ones further up the beach that might take some extra steps to get within throwing range.  Somehow the closer starfish are more deserving of being saved since people are already working on saving them than the more at risk of not being able to get there at all.

Edited March 2, 2021 by Calm

[smac97]

17 hours ago, CV75 said:

I'm not seeing any specifics here on "a solution to racial injustice over here that involves creating another racial injustice over there."

I am.  I commented on this earlier here:

Quote

But in practice, Asians become "honorary Whites" for admissions purposes.  There are some real, empirical reasons why the DOJ sued Yale last year for racial bias against Asian and White applicants (a suit later dropped, though the underlying investigation supposedly continues).  See, e.g. here:

Quote

The U.S. Department of Justice sued Yale University on Thursday, accusing the Ivy League school of illegally discriminating against Asian and white applicants in undergraduate admissions.

The lawsuit escalates the Trump administration’s push against affirmative action in admissions to elite universities, after it publicly supported a lawsuit by Asian-American students accusing Harvard University of discriminating against them.

The Justice Department said Asian-American and white applicants were typically only one-eighth to one-fourth as likely to win admission to Yale as similarly qualified Black applicants.

 

Let me lay out my reasoning here:

1. Admission to a particular school is a "zero sum game."  That is: "Zero-sum is a situation in game theory in which one person’s gain is equivalent to another’s loss, so the net change in wealth or benefit is zero."  There are are finite number of slots available to students, such that a slot given to one applicant "over here" means that another student "over there" loses out on that slot.

2. Colleges and universities are filling their slots by, inter alia, using race as a factor in favor of, or against, candidates.  As noted above: "The Justice Department said Asian-American and white applicants were typically only one-eighth to one-fourth as likely to win admission to Yale as similarly qualified Black applicants."

3. I am concerned about explicitly race-based policies being developed and introduced at BYU.  BIPOCs will receive preferential treatment, and Whites, Asians, and Jews will therefore lose in the "zero sum game."  And the difference between the winners and the losers is . . . skin color.

I am concerned about this.

Quote

I was expecting an example of one of the recommendations that meets that criterion.

See here.

Quote

The term "racial injustice" is not used in the article or the recommendations,

Right.  And Yale has not admitted to discriminating against Asians and Whites.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited March 3, 2021 by smac97

[Calm]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Right.  But in practice, Asians become "honorary Whites" for admissions purposes. 

CFR this happens at BYU since what we are discussing is BYU’s policy.  
 

Because it is not like there are no lower income Asian communities out there.

https://www.urban.org/urban-wire/asian-americans-are-falling-through-cracks-data-representation-and-social-services

Edited March 2, 2021 by Calm

[smac97]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

Continuing the analogy, looks like you want people to focus on the starfish that are closer to the ocean already rather than the ones further up the beach that might take some extra steps to get within throwing range.  

And proximity to the ocean is . . . race.  Skin color.  All the White and Asian and Jewis starfish are, by way of being White/Asian/Jewish, "closer to the ocean already."  Is that your point?

If so, I must respectfully disagree with it.  

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

Somehow the closer starfish are more deserving of being saved since people are already working on saving them than the more at risk of not being able to get there at all.

Who is it that is saying White/Asian/Jewish applicants (presumably what you mean by "the closer starfish") are "more deserving" of, well, anything?

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

Quote

Right.  But in practice, Asians become "honorary Whites" for admissions purposes. 

CFR this happens at BYU since what we are discussing is BYU’s policy.

Well, we're speaking prospectively, right?  What may happen in the future if and when these policies are implemented?  Kinda hard to answer a CFR about something that has yet to happen.

But what we can do is look at schools that have already played around with race-based admissions policies.  Yale and Harvard, for example.  What do we see there?  Race-based discrimination of . . . yep, Whites, Asians and Jews.

Thanks,

-Smac

[The Nehor]

14 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Asians are also usually losers in the race-based admissions games that are played in today's colleges and universities.  So are Jews.

Are you going to ridicule them as well?  Or is race-based ridicule okay as long as the targets of your venom are White?

Thanks,

-Smac

No, because they are not the group with large numbers of people whining about how unfair it is.

It is also not race-based ridicule. It is ridicule of a set of people that whine a lot.

Real Oppression: ”Stop having law enforcement extrajudicially execute us!”

Whining Spoiled Gits: “Calm down. If you can present your claims civilly and in a way that doesn’t inconvenience me in any way or make me feel bad at all then someday we will look into your grievances and possibly form a committee of some sort to stonewall you. Wait, what just happened? WHAT???? There is a 1% chance that my kid won’t get accepted into a specific college because of attempts to redress entrenched racism?!?!?! WHY IS LIFE SO UNFAIR?!?!?!!!?!?!?!”

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

"Trying to make the playing field even" being code for "implementing all sorts of policies that on their face treat applicants, students, faculty, etc. differently based on their race?"

No, it's not code for that.  

Quote

 

See #10 on the list (creating another academic bureaucrat job that is "that is particularly charged with leading initiatives associated with attracting, admitting, retaining and supporting the academic success of BIPOC students").  "BIPOC" = not White / Asian / Jewish.  BYU will be hiring and paying a lot of money to a bureaucrat whose job it is to help selected BYU students based on the color of their skin.

#11 creates bureaucratic committee specifically assigned to "optimize attracting, admitting, retaining and supporting the academic success of BIPOC and other students."  (I'm curious as to who these "other students" would be, and if they really will be targeted by this committee.  I'm not holding my breath that they will be White, Asian or Jewish.)

#13 puts it right out there: "Design and implement a race-conscious recruitment strategy to attract more BIPOC student applicants to BYU."  "Race-conscious" means, I think, that BIPOC will receive preferential treatment, and that White, Asian and Jewish students will, ipso facto, be disriminated against.

As does #15, which has the Office of Legal Counsel working to make sure that the forthcoming "race-conscious admissions model for BYU" is legal.  "Race-conscious" means, I think, race-based preferential treatment for BIPOCs.  Whites, Asians and Jews, meanwhile, will likely lose out.  That's rather the point of preferential treatment.  Preference of one candidate over another.  And that preference will be based on . . . skin color.

#16 is tacit, I think.  It references "prestigious scholarship recipients," but I really doubt White / Asian / Jewish candidates will be considered.

#22 calls for "a best practices model ... to identify qualified BIPOC candidates for BYU faculty positions."  Again, this sounds like qualified White, Jewish and Asian candidates need not apply.

#23 speaks of "a best practices model for college and department faculty search committees to identify qualified BIPOC candidates for BYU faculty positions."  Qualified BIPOC candidates, mind you.  Whites and Asians need not apply.

Thanks,

 

None of that says or means that BYU is planning on discriminating against white students because of their race.  You're kind of making stuff up and then getting mad about the made up stuff.  

Edited March 2, 2021 by bluebell

[Calm]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

solution to racial injustice over here that involves creating another racial injustice over there doesn't seem like a good idea.

After reading Bluedream’s very informative personal or up close description of how support or the lack of it actually plays out at BYU rather than depending on long distance speculation , do you see increasing the occurrences of such support for BIPOC actually creating racial injustice for white students?

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/73567-bombshell-byu-announcement/?do=findComment&comment=1210017032

 

Edited March 2, 2021 by Calm

[rongo]

In other news:

This BIPOC student (if he wanted to claim that --- he's Mexican), Alex Barcello, is the neighbor of one of the counselors my dad had in a YSA bishopric. Their family lives in the stake we moved from in June, and the two families are good friends. They aren't LDS. He transferred to BYU from the University of Arizona.

https://www.deseret.com/sports/2021/3/1/22307159/byu-mark-pope-became-life-saver-for-alex-barcello-but-he-did-likewise-for-byu

Edited March 2, 2021 by rongo

[Calm]

21 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Well, we're speaking prospectively, right?  What may happen in the future if and when these policies are implemented?  Kinda hard to answer a CFR about something that has yet to happen.

But what we can do is look at schools that have already played around with race-based admissions policies.  Yale and Harvard, for example.  What do we see there?  Race-based discrimination of . . . yep, Whites, Asians and Jews.

Thanks,

-Smac

The survey included Asians.  (I am not mentioning Jews because I am not sure how one would track Jews who are LDS.  If by name, then that includes me as my maiden surname was Jewish, my grandfather’s grandfather being German Jew).  
 

BYU is in a significantly different category than Yale and Harvard being a religious school.  It is also in a different category because the primary purpose of that religion and the university overseen by the regions leaders is not to produced academically advanced students to boost the university’s prestige and thus bring in more money for the university.

I therefore think it is faulty reasoning to project on to BYU what policies have led to at other universities, especially policies that may or may not even get implemented at BYU.

[Calm]

Smac, I am curious as to why you have responded to everyone posting in this thread for the last several hours, except for the one person who has had extensive personal experience of the topic, Bluedreams? (Whose post was based on actual events, not speculation)

[CV75]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Right.  Code words are standard fare in this sort of thing.  Doesn't really change the underlying situation.

Well, sure.  That's rather the point, right?  To find ways to make race-based discrimination legal?

I think I am.

Thanks,

-Smac

You are using "discrimination" as "unlawful discrimination"? Which of the recommendations creates a point of unlawful discrimination?

[CV75]

52 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I am.  I commented on this earlier here:

Let me lay out my reasoning here:

1. Admission to a particular school is a "zero sum game."  That is: "Zero-sum is a situation in game theory in which one person’s gain is equivalent to another’s loss, so the net change in wealth or benefit is zero.  There are are finite number of slots available to students, such that a slot given to one applicant "over here" means that another student "over there" loses out on that slot.

2. Colleges and universities are filling their slots by, inter alia, using race as a factor in favor of, or against, candidates.  As noted above: "The Justice Department said Asian-American and white applicants were typically only one-eighth to one-fourth as likely to win admission to Yale as similarly qualified Black applicants."

3. I am concerned about explicitly race-based policies being developed and introduced at BYU.  BIPOCs will receive preferential treatment, and Whites, Asians, and Jews will therefore lose in the "zero sum game."  And the difference between the winners and the losers is . . . skin color.

I am concerned about this.

See here.

Right.  And Yale has not admitted to discriminating against Asians and Whites.

Thanks,

-Smac

I understand your reasoning (which is the servant and not the driver of bias -- it is human nature to rationalize and justify one's more deeply-rooted inclinations) for opposing the recommendations, but am not seeing how it relates to examples of unlawful discrimination among the 26 recommendations.

This discussion is beginning to sound like the old right-to-same-sex marriage threads, where "discrimination" and "rights" are used in ways other than the legal/legislated meanings. I think it best to address BYU's actions in terms of how it defines "discrimination" in its policies.

[strappinglad]

BIPOC , the acronym itself is front loaded as if blacks are not people of color and indigenous people are not POC so both groups need a special extra emphasis. I should be offended on behalf of the people of India who are not only POC but Asian as well. 

 

[bluebell]

Bias is so hard to see in ourselves, and we all have it.  For those who are interested in seeing where your biases might be, I recommend this simple test from Harvard.  You can click on a lot of different topics, from race to homosexuality to ageism and see who in the group (old or young, straight or gay, black or white) you subconsciously favor.  

We can't change what we don't acknowledge.

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/selectatest.html

[Islander]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

While not great for their home countries, why is this a problem?  The Church in the US likely greatly benefits with the immigration of church members from around the world. 

How does the Church benefit in the US? Most of them just get to work on the grinding of keeping a job and the struggles of trying to integrate into American society that all immigrants go through. Meanwhile they just tread water on language unit. 

It defeats the purpose of training future leaders that will never reach their full potential and impact in their native lands because they trade it for economic opportunity. Even in Church history, leaders realized that the Saints had to spread out of Utah in order to impact the world.

The Church needs leaders where is growing.  The congregations in North America are fading away. So the work is abroad. Why leave one's country where the Spirit of the Lord is moving and awakening His children in that part of the vineyard? Just my thoughts. 

Edited March 3, 2021 by Islander

[provoman]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

No, it's not code for that.  

None of that says or means that BYU is planning on discriminating against white students because of their race.  You're kind of making stuff up and then getting mad about the made up stuff.  

 

How would you explain #10 and #11?

[smac97]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

I understand your reasoning (which is the servant and not the driver of bias -- it is human nature to rationalize and justify one's more deeply-rooted inclinations) for opposing the recommendations,

To be honest, I'm not sure I "oppose" the recommendations.  I have some real reservations about them, but I also have quite a bit of respect for Pres. Worthen and the Board of Trustees.

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

but am not seeing how it relates to examples of unlawful discrimination among the 26 recommendations.

I have not been talking about "unlawful" discrimination.

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

This discussion is beginning to sound like the old right-to-same-sex marriage threads, where "discrimination" and "rights" are used in ways other than the legal/legislated meanings.

Not really.  

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

I think it best to address BYU's actions in terms of how it defines "discrimination" in its policies.

Yale and Harvard wouldn't describe their race-based admissions policies as "discrimination" either.  But if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck...

The issue seems to be that race-based discrimination is seen as socially acceptable provided that the targets are approved (Whites, obviously, but also Asians and Jews re: collegiate admissions).

Thanks,

-Smac