Bombshell BYU announcement

strappinglad · March 2, 2021

4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

don't particularly like feeling woo woos.

It is better than feeling doo doos , but as a dog owner it is one of my daily chores. 🤮

strappinglad · March 2, 2021

3 hours ago, poptart said:

aren't going to have it as good as they did

A college degree no longer opens the doors like it used to . The trades are looking a bit more hopeful. The advent of AI and robots will make many repetitive former jobs obsolete .

Bernard Gui · March 2, 2021

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I don’t think the reservations are the equivalent of most foreign nations. Most degrees are not going to get you a job at all on a reservation.

The Native Americans are trying very hard to remedy this situation.

Many foreign students stay here after their visas expire. https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2019/04/real-immigration-crisis-people-overstaying-their-visas/587485

Edited March 2, 2021 by Bernard Gui

carbon dioxide · March 2, 2021

12 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

A college degree no longer opens the doors like it used to . The trades are looking a bit more hopeful. The advent of AI and robots will make many repetitive former jobs obsolete .

I think trade schools will be the more beneficial in the future. Learn a couple of skills rather than get a broad education, most of which will be forgotten soon after graduation.

Islander · March 2, 2021

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I'll do neither until I see how it pans out. It could be a positive step, performative nothingness, a huge hassle, or any combination of them.

I hope this is part of a step to get more foreign members into the school. Using the school to build stronger social and cultural ties to members abroad would likely be a huge advantage.

The problem is that about 80% of those that come from other countries to BYU remain in the US and never return to their countries of origin. I worked in Mexico for a decade and just about all the RM from the Stake I resided in remained in the Us after their schooling was completed. That was true even for tose seeking (short) Tech Certificate Training at BYU.

The simple explanation is that economic opportunities, even with a US-based education, south of the border are not the same. Unemployment in Mexico was about 37% in the 2000's. Not sure where it is now.

mfbukowski · March 2, 2021

1 hour ago, strappinglad said:

It is better than feeling doo doos , but as a dog owner it is one of my daily chores. 🤮

Oh my what a set up NOT be able to take advantage of!

Edited March 2, 2021 by mfbukowski

poptart · March 2, 2021

7 hours ago, strappinglad said:

A college degree no longer opens the doors like it used to . The trades are looking a bit more hopeful. The advent of AI and robots will make many repetitive former jobs obsolete .

I do wonder what's going to happen with all the student loan debt the USA has, a lot of people are already in default. I've been told by friends it's becoming more popular for those who can't find jobs to go abroad and teach English, I wonder how many will ever come back. While many who took out loans did it foolishly, many others did it because they came from poor families and thought they'd be afforded the same job opportunities generations past enjoyed, like many I'd imagine they are quite angry over the current situation. You can go to reddit and see stories of people, both American and not who plan on never coming back to the USA/paying their loans back. With this countries debt, declining opportunities, inflation and well, questions over social security and medicare can't say I blame them. The USA has so many problems they played kick the can with and a lot of people who worked their backside off have simply had it. Add in all the other people who feel entitled for handouts while having either never paid in or just leeched off the system most of their lives, it's a messy situation.

Stargazer · March 2, 2021

12 hours ago, poptart said:

It's amazing, besides myself so many people I knew had to work their way through in life, they never even had the opportunity to be lazy. Those who did usually turned to drugs and disappeared, know one who killed himself years ago.

Hey, the lazy thing was just school, when I was young and dumb. After I joined the Army, they beat the laziness out of me. Well, actually, my mission beat the laziness out of me, and then I got married. Marriage beat the laziness out of me!

Now I'm retired, and I can finally afford to be lazy. And so naturally I find things to do to not be lazy. Check out my Youtube channel (link in sig).

12 hours ago, poptart said:

I dunno, I look at how competitive things are now and wonder. Everyone is fighting over an ever shrinking pie, I get the feeling that in 5-10 years so many people are going to either be jobless or underemployed/underpaid while things are even more expensive than they are now. I remember how it was for me during the last recession, I totally got the shaft while the fortunate ones with families had the I got mine attitude. Going to be interesting, so many now have families, mortgages and no longer have parents there to protect them from the things life throws at you. Reading what I just did on BYU is a bit of an eye opener for me. I think in the end people are going to have to accept their children/grand children just aren't going to have it as good as they did, it is what it is.

The problem with this outlook, "ever shrinking pie" is that it isn't realistic and it isn't conducive to success. There are plenty of people in the world, and as more people come in, economic activity creates more pies. But if one thinks about the pie staying the same size while more mouths hanker to get a piece of it, then one becomes even more "I got mine now, so screw you!" Economic downturns only last for limited times, and with a positive attitude even those times can be times of opportunity of one sort or another.

Rain · March 2, 2021

15 hours ago, strappinglad said:

Every time I see the word ' holistic ' used , I get visions of ' crystal gazing and woo woo feelings ' .

When you look at the definition of the word it makes a lot of sense for BYU to do this.

"

PHILOSOPHY

characterized by comprehension of the parts of something as intimately interconnected and explicable only by reference to the whole.

MEDICINE

characterized by the treatment of the whole person, taking into account mental and social factors, rather than just the symptoms of a disease."

The first really goes with Covey's 7 Habits and how working together we can be much better than working independently.

The second part I have found to be very important with my doctors with my 40 years of diabetes. Not long ago I read where a woman had these really high sugar spikes. They finally had her do a journal throughout the day for a few days and discovered that just before those spikes she was arguing with her sister on the phone.

As a church we talk about the connectivity of body and spirit all the time. It makes sense to do similar things with what is happening at BYU in education. As others have mentioned, what a cool zion thing this could be - not a thing to let go of standards, but to lift all in many ways to the standards (all of them, not just academic) that God set.

Edited March 2, 2021 by Rain

rongo · March 2, 2021

18 hours ago, CV75 said:

In any case, if more students from around the world can now be more intentionally accepted -- both matriculated and socially -- all the better!

15 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I hope this is part of a step to get more foreign members into the school.

BYU has always had an extensive international outreach and cadre of international students. If the intent of this were increasing international students, I don't think there would have been a 63 page report with the 26 action items. They simple would have announced an initiative to increase the number of international students.

The big tell is such terms as "BIPOC," or "root out racism without delay," or "cultural taxation burdens" and the like. A "Jane Manning James" or "Elijah Abel" scholarship isn't targeted at international students; these names are clearly aimed at a specific domestic United States audience. International student outreach might have names like "Yeah Samake Scholarship," or "Ezekiel Ansah Scholarship," or "Krešimir Ćosić Scholarship." Actually, Ćosić wasn't "BIPOC," so probably not him.

This whole thing is pretty clearly about appeasing the clamor for U.S. "diversity" and "equity," not increasing international enrollment.

Theosis · March 2, 2021

21 hours ago, rongo said:

I really enjoyed my years at BYU (1993-1999), but to me, it isn't the same school now as the one I attended then. Although my oldest was accepted, he turned down the half-tuition offered for a full-ride somewhere else. I still follow and root for BYU in sports, but our other children aren't even considering attending BYU. In our circle of friends and acquaintances, there has been a big uptick in rejections for admission or transfer at BYU. Rejections have always been there, as BYU is highly competitive, but I've never seen it to this extent. 5 out of 6 in my son's MTC district were rejected, as well as several others in his mission. Several of my daughter's friends at NAU who had applied for a transfer have also been turned down. My son's "girlfriend" (we don't allow steady dating in high school, but they would if they could) was really down when she got her rejection.

I think part of it is probably a large group of students who deferred this Covid year, but are returning next year. It's probably harder than ever for Utahns to be accepted. I also think that another possible factor is this bombshell announcement from BYU:

https://www.deseret.com/faith/2021/2/26/22303466/official-committee-says-byu-must-root-out-racism-without-delay-provo-utah

There are clearly going to be affirmative action quotas designed to increase enrollment in targeted demographic groups, and this will lead to increases in rejections for other students who otherwise might have gotten in. Whether or not this has played a role yet in this year admissions, I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did --- even though it's not fully implemented yet.

The end of the article contains the 26 point action item list. Here is my summary/translation of them. I realize that some might take issue with my editorializing or paraphrasing (out of PC legalese gobblety-gook), but this is a discussion board

BYU’s Committee on Race and Equity released a 63 page report explaining 26 action items that it says must be implemented „without delay“ to bring about „historic, transformative change“ to BYU Provo.

1. Create an Office of Diversity.

2. Create a new position of Vice President of Diversity.

3. Give these new positions authority and „teeth.“

4. Develop and implement training programs on diversity, equity, and racism for administrators, faculty and staff, and students.

5. Change the curriculum for general education, religion, and elective classes to educate about racism and diversity.

6. Update the current „Aims of a BYU Education“ to reflect these changes.

7. Promote and implement „Fostering an Enriched Environment Policy“ (making BYU less racist) throughout the university.

8. Instruct colleges and departments to change mission statements to reflect these changes.

9. Establish a permanent committee to advance equity for BIPOC (black, indigenous, and people of color) faculty and students.

10. Create „strategic initiatives for recruitment, admission, scholarships, financial aid, retention, and success“ for BIPOC students (i.e., quotas -- numbers have to go up, no matter what).

11. „Form a Recruitment, Admissions, and Student Success Committee“ to implement #10.

12. Develop a strategic plan to increase graduation rates for BIPOC students.

13. Recruit and attract more BIPOC students to BYU.

14. Perform an independent evaluation of the admissions process – especially weighting – to make it more „holistic“ and enable more BIPOC students to qualify for admissions (i.e., lower standards, at least for affirmative action students).

15. Have the legal department/BYU Counsel „evaluate the legal parameters of a race-conscious admissions model for BYU“ (i.e., make sure we don't run afoul of affirmative action laws, reverse-discrimination, etc.)

16. Endow a Jane Manning James and Elijah Able scholarship for BIPOC students.

17. Create other scholarships for BIPOC students.

18. Create a more robust process for students to report incidents of racism at BYU.

19. Have a more „holistic“ standard for BIPOC students for prestigious scholarships (i.e., put the thumb on the scale for BIPOC students, but not for whites and Asians).

20. Establish a visible, permanent „safe space“ on campus for „underrepresented groups.“

21. Ensure that the honor code is applied with „cultural competence and sensitivity.“ (i.e., avoid being accused of racism if a BIPOC student runs afoul of the honor code. In practice, this means a different standard for them than for white or Asian students).

22. Recruit, attract, and retain more BIPOC faculty to BYU. (i.e., affirmative action in hiring)

23. Assist and incentivize BIPOC students who want to pursue graduate school. (i.e., affirmative action in grad school admissions)

24. Attract more BIPOC PhD. students to present and conduct their research at BYU.

25. Reduce „cultural taxation burdens“ for BIPOC faculty at BYU. (This bizarre PC expression refers to BIPOC faculty feeling judged or culturally uncomfortable within the dominant BYU LDS culture).

26. Promote more BIPOC faculty into senior administrative positions at BYU. (i.e., affirmative action in administration).

---

I think that some will be dancing in the streets over this, and others will be dismayed. Either way, this is big news.

These are all great initiatives. I applaud BYU's work to improve their relationship with people of color and other diverse groups. It's a long time coming.

Stargazer · March 2, 2021

30 minutes ago, Rain said:

When you look at the definition of the word it makes a lot of sense for BYU to do this.

"

PHILOSOPHY

characterized by comprehension of the parts of something as intimately interconnected and explicable only by reference to the whole.

MEDICINE

characterized by the treatment of the whole person, taking into account mental and social factors, rather than just the symptoms of a disease."

The first really goes with Covey's 7 Habits and how working together we can be much better than working independently.

The second part I have found to be very important with my doctors with my 40 years of diabetes. Not long ago I read where a woman had these really high sugar spikes. They finally had her do a journal throughout the day for a few days and discovered that just before those spikes she was arguing with her sister on the phone.

As a church we talk about the connectivity of body and spirit all the time. It makes sense to do similar things with what is happening at BYU in education. As others have mentioned, what a cool zion thing this could be - not a thing to let go of standards, but to lift all in many ways to the standards (all of them, not just academic) that God set.

Of course "holistic" has a definition, but regardless of the definition, to many people it is just a useful buzzword to lend trendiness. The real question becomes, "Are they really holistic, or do they just want things to sound like they are, without the substance thereof?" Most modern use of the word seems to be eyewash -- used to look good without actually taking on the actual characteristic.

Naturally, a lot of people with real-world experience of hype and awe look at those using it to describe themselves, and say, "Yeah, sure, whatever."

And thus the "crystal-gazing" comment.

rongo · March 2, 2021

Here is a really inspiring current story with national reach about an international BYU student/basketball player.

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/30945601/the-amazing-journey-mission-byu-gideon-george

rongo · March 2, 2021

13 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Of course "holistic" has a definition, but regardless of the definition, to many people it is just a useful buzzword to lend trendiness. The real question becomes, "Are they really holistic, or do they just want things to sound like they are, without the substance thereof?" Most modern use of the word seems to be eyewash -- used to look good without actually taking on the actual characteristic.

Naturally, a lot of people with real-world experience of hype and awe look at those using it to describe themselves, and say, "Yeah, sure, whatever."

And thus the "crystal-gazing" comment.

"Holistic" in education, and in this BYU action plan, means "not slavishly adhering to a rigid high standard in selected cases, but rather, putting our thumb on the scale for 'socioeconomic hardship' or 'adverse life experiences' in lieu of the former rigid high standards when it will help the new quota." It's a complete buzzword, which is why it evokes the reaction that it does.

juliann · March 2, 2021

22 hours ago, rongo said:

There are clearly going to be affirmative action quotas designed to increase enrollment in targeted demographic groups, and this will lead to increases in rejections for other students who otherwise might have gotten in.

Why are you calling this affirmative action?

juliann · March 2, 2021

55 minutes ago, rongo said:

BYU has always had an extensive international outreach and cadre of international students. If the intent of this were increasing international students, I don't think there would have been a 63 page report with the 26 action items. They simple would have announced an initiative to increase the number of international students.

The big tell is such terms as "BIPOC," or "root out racism without delay," or "cultural taxation burdens" and the like. A "Jane Manning James" or "Elijah Abel" scholarship isn't targeted at international students; these names are clearly aimed at a specific domestic United States audience. International student outreach might have names like "Yeah Samake Scholarship," or "Ezekiel Ansah Scholarship," or "Krešimir Ćosić Scholarship." Actually, Ćosić wasn't "BIPOC," so probably not him.

This whole thing is pretty clearly about appeasing the clamor for U.S. "diversity" and "equity," not increasing international enrollment.

Or it is about creating a global community for a global church. I am astonished that you see "root out racism without delay" as a bad thing.

Amulek · March 2, 2021

21 hours ago, rongo said:

20. Establish a visible, permanent „safe space“ on campus for „underrepresented groups.“

I guess this means that the Krishna's will finally be able to move up from Spanish Fork and onto campus where they belong. I think the llamas will be a great addition.

rongo · March 2, 2021

1 minute ago, juliann said:

Why are you calling this affirmative action?

There will be clear quotas on "BIPOC" student enrollment and faculty hiring (and administrative promotion). It's right in the action plan. As it is "zero sum" (BIPOC placements will be at the expense of non-BIPOC applicants who otherwise would/could have gotten the spot. BYU enrollment is capped and will not be increased).

Why else is point #15 on the action plan to have BYU legal counsel „evaluate the legal parameters of a race-conscious admissions model for BYU?“ Why would they even need legal input if it is not affirmative action (and could potentially lead to reverse-discrimination complaints)?

rongo · March 2, 2021

2 minutes ago, juliann said:

Or it is about creating a global community for a global church. I am astonished that you see "root out racism without delay" as a bad thing.

I'm astonished that you see "root out racism without delay" as denoting increasing the international footprint at BYU. The international footprint has always been there; this is dancing to the "diversity/equity" industrial complex pistol-whipping. I'm disappointed BYU is playing along, complete with the buzzwords.

poptart · March 2, 2021

3 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Hey, the lazy thing was just school, when I was young and dumb. After I joined the Army, they beat the laziness out of me. Well, actually, my mission beat the laziness out of me, and then I got married. Marriage beat the laziness out of me!

Now I'm retired, and I can finally afford to be lazy. And so naturally I find things to do to not be lazy. Check out my Youtube channel (link in sig).

The problem with this outlook, "ever shrinking pie" is that it isn't realistic and it isn't conducive to success. There are plenty of people in the world, and as more people come in, economic activity creates more pies. But if one thinks about the pie staying the same size while more mouths hanker to get a piece of it, then one becomes even more "I got mine now, so screw you!" Economic downturns only last for limited times, and with a positive attitude even those times can be times of opportunity of one sort or another.

Go on....

You're right about the I've got mine mentality, seen a lot of people not only screw themselves, they destroyed their families, I had to suffer through that. I do try to see more than one pie, for example something else I'm looking into, getting a TEFL cert and teaching english. You hit the nail on the head about more mouths hankering for one pie, I don't see the point in fighting with everyone, no one really wins that way.

bluebell · March 2, 2021

It's really hard to spin "root out racism" into something negative. I don't understand that mindset. Are you worried that not as many white kids will be accepted now?

bluebell · March 2, 2021

1 hour ago, Amulek said:

I guess this means that the Krishna's will finally be able to move up from Spanish Fork and onto campus where they belong. I think the llamas will be a great addition.

Love the Krishna temple. Bring on the llamas.

smac97 · March 2, 2021

1 hour ago, juliann said:

Quote

There are clearly going to be affirmative action quotas designed to increase enrollment in targeted demographic groups, and this will lead to increases in rejections for other students who otherwise might have gotten in.

Why are you calling this affirmative action?

I think it may help to look at the origins of the term:

Quote

Definition

A set of procedures designed to eliminate unlawful discrimination among applicants, remedy the results of such prior discrimination, and prevent such discrimination in the future. Applicants may be seeking admission to an educational program or looking for professional employment. In modern American jurisprudence, it typically imposes remedies against discrimination on the basis of, at the very least, race, creed, color, and national origin.

Legal Origins

While the concept of affirmative action has existed in America since the 19th century, it first appeared in its current form in President Kennedy's Executive Order 10925 (1961): "The contractor will take affirmative action to ensure that applicants are employed, and that employees are treated during employment, without regard to their race, creed, color, or national origin."
...
Employers who contract with the government or who otherwise receive federal funds are required to document their affirmative action practices and metrics. Affirmative action is also a remedy, under the Civil Rights Act of 1964, where a court finds that an employer has intentionally engaged in discriminatory practices.
...
Recipients of federal funds are required to document their affirmative action practices and metrics. Educational institutions which have acted discriminatorily in the past must take affirmative action as a remedy. (34 CFR § 100.3(6)(ii)).

It seems that there are generally two broad approaches to combatting discrimination.

One approach is, essentially, colorblindness. In the 2007 PICS case decided by the U.S. Supreme Court, Chief Justice John Roberts concluded his plurality opinion by stating: "The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race." This sounds axiomatic, and also reflective of Dr. King's dream of "a day when people will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."

The other approach is to specifically do what affirmative action was designed not to do, namely, to "ensure that applicants are employed, and that employees are treated during employment, {with} regard to their race, creed, color, or national origin." That is what Affirmative Action does. It specifically takes race into account. BIPOC is a literal reference to anyone who is not "white," but with a particular added emphasis and attention given to Blacks and Native Americans. In academia, Asians are essentially not considered "people of color," and are instead treated as honorary White people. So too are BIPOC folks who create an inconvenient narrative (George Zimmerman comes to mind).

I think this USA Today Op-Ed from January has some good insights:

Quote

Campus leaders couldn't care less about racial progress
Hadn't we already agreed as a nation that racial segregation is morally wrong? Apparently, these schools haven't gotten the memo.
Glenn Harlan Reynolds | Opinion columnist

“Segregation now, segregation tomorrow and segregation forever!” Those words were thundered by Alabama Gov. George Wallace in his 1963 inauguration speech. But, in fact, the very next year, Congress passed the Civil Rights Act, which brought an end to segregation.

Or did it?

Wallace later repented of this phrase, but in 2020, the 1963 George Wallace seems to be getting some traction. Because all over America — and even in Alabama — universities and schools are promoting and endorsing schemes that divide and label students by race.

In the Des News article's list of recommendations to BYU, #10 involves creating another academic bureaucrat job that is "that is particularly charged with leading initiatives associated with attracting, admitting, retaining and supporting the academic success of BIPOC students."

#11 creates bureaucratic committee specifically assigned to "optimize attracting, admitting, retaining and supporting the academic success of BIPOC and other students." (I'm curious as to who these "other students" would be, and if they really will be targeted by this committee. I'm not holding my breath.)

#13 puts it right out there: "Design and implement a race-conscious recruitment strategy to attract more BIPOC student applicants to BYU." As does #15, which has the Office of Legal Counsel working to make sure that the forthcoming "race-conscious admissions model for BYU" is legal.

#16 is tacit, I think. It references "prestigious scholarship recipients," but I really doubt white and Asian candidates will be considered.

#22 calls for "a best practices model ... to identify qualified BIPOC candidates for BYU faculty positions." Again, this sounds like qualified "white" and "Asian" candidates need not apply.

#23 speaks of "a best practices model for college and department faculty search committees to identify qualified BIPOC candidates for BYU faculty positions." Qualified BIPOC candidates, mind you. Whites and Asians need not apply.

#26 calls for "BIPOC faculty" be given "opportunities to serve in senior university leadership positions." If BYU has been discriminating against "BIPOC faculty" by not giving them such "opportunities," then the law has already been broken.

Bombshell BYU announcement

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