A very Strang finding

[Stargazer]

On 2/7/2021 at 9:44 PM, AtlanticMike said:

Exactly, I agree. 

 

I dont know what meme your talking about so can you send it to me privately if you dont want to share it?

OK, it's the "Karen Meme".  

On 2/7/2021 at 9:44 PM, AtlanticMike said:

Years ago I would volunteer as a chaperone at youth dances. I would stand at the cultural hall door and have to make sure the dress code was followed.  Well, I would just let people in, and the second dance I let somebody in who wasn't dressed "appropriately " the bishop pulled me  aside and asked why I was letting girls in who obviously weren't following the dress code. I actually tried to get away from him, I even told him to get someone else to stand at the door, but he was persistent, had to know why I wasn't following his instructions. Finally I told him he was a pompous A hole and was doing more harm than good. That's why I was always given a calling in scouts after that incident🤣🤣

TBH, that sounds more like a feature than a bug, to always being given a calling in Scouts!

On 2/7/2021 at 9:44 PM, AtlanticMike said:

     My wife has a friend who will not go into a convenience store because of the coffee pots. She was traumatized as a kid by her parents and cant deal with looking at anything to do with coffee or alcohol. Even beer commercials set her off. To her, coffee and alcohol are as close to the devil you can get without actually touching him. Have you never known someone who doesn't think about coffee or alcohol in this way? 

   

No, I have never known someone who thinks about coffee or alcohol this way.  But I'm perplexed. Does this have something to do with the Word of Wisdom, and if so, does this person not have similar reactions to tobacco?

[Stargazer]

On 2/7/2021 at 10:48 PM, JLHPROF said:

That kind of behavior is the fastest way to put cracks in a testimony.  A refusal to address things that trouble us puts far more stress on our "shelves" than faithful investigation.  The refusal to innoculate is dangerous. 

Maybe.

My wife has a very strong testimony of the gospel. Because her son has distanced himself from the church, I felt she might find value in Mike Ash's book, "Shaken Faith Syndrome". I got her the book, and she started reading it, but it made her too uncomfortable, so she stopped. Should I have pressured her to keep reading it, in order to inoculate her? Is her failure to inoculate herself going to prove dangerous?

On 2/7/2021 at 10:48 PM, JLHPROF said:

Discussing Joseph's practice of polygamy hardly dragging something precious through the mud.  D&C 132 and the historical record are worthy of investigation.  I agree that nobody should be forced into such a discussion but the term dragging it through the mud is inaccurate.

To some people, discussing Joseph's practice of polygamy can be painful because it seems to be dragging one's testimony of Joseph through the mud.  You don't see this?  

 

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

Sorry, I wasn't trying to characterize it negatively -- but I can see that my response definitely came across that way. My apologies!!! 😞 

No worries!! I don't always word what I want to say well.

[AtlanticMike]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

No,I have never known someone who thinks about coffee or alcohol this way.  But I'm perplexed. Does this have something to do with the Word of Wisdom, and if so, does this person not have similar reactions to tobacco?

I dont know what she thinks about tobacco, if I had to guess, yes she probably does. Her parents were very strict on the word of wisdom,  they couldn't even drink caffeinated soda. My wife is very close to her so she jokes on her all the time about it. It bugs her so bad that if she and my wife are off shopping and stop to get gas, she'll actually choose to pump gas in my wife's truck instead of going inside to get snacks for the kids. Her parents really did a job on her when it comes to the WoW.

[Stargazer]

2 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

No worries!! I don't always word what I want to say well.

Sometimes my writings are heartbreaking works of staggering genius. Other times they're just heartbreaking. 

[Stargazer]

4 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

I dont know what she thinks about tobacco, if I had to guess, yes she probably does. Her parents were very strict on the word of wisdom,  they couldn't even drink caffeinated soda. My wife is very close to her so she jokes on her all the time about it. It bugs her so bad that if she and my wife are off shopping and stop to get gas, she'll actually choose to pump gas in my wife's truck instead of going inside to get snacks for the kids. Her parents really did a job on her when it comes to the WoW.

When I first joined the church, some members seemed to think they belonged to the Church of the Word of Wisdom rather than the Church of Jesus Christ. Apparently this remains the case.

I used to joke that I had to drink a Coke once a week in order to keep from being translated.  I think some people would treat this as a serious principle and not a joke.

[bluebell]

13 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

We accept the statements of the 11 witnesses to the Book of Mormon. It seems likely those that lived through Joseph Smith's death accepted the claims of James Strang.

It's difficult because none of them accepted the claims of Brigham Young.

How many that accepted JS accepted Strang, and for how long did they accept him?  From what I understand, none of them stayed with him for very long, but maybe I've missed something.

I know that at least one eventually did accept the claims of BY, right?

[webbles]

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

How many that accepted JS accepted Strang, and for how long did they accept him?  From what I understand, none of them stayed with him for very long, but maybe I've missed something.

I know that at least one eventually did accept the claims of BY, right?

Of the 8 witnesses, 3 were alive after the deaths of Joseph Smith: Jacob Whitmer, John Whitmer, and Hiram Page.  I can't find anything about Jacob Whitmer joining or accepting any other claimant.  He stayed back in Missouri and didn't go to Nauvoo and probably stopped accepting Joseph Smith.  According to the link from Rajah, Hiram Page sent a letter to Strang and said that he, John, and David Whitmer accepted Strang's claim.  But they all joined the Whitmerites (which William McLellan and David Whitmer kind of started) by 1847.  So if they did accept Strang, it was only for a year or two.  They also had stayed back in Missouri as well and so had probably stopped accepting Joseph Smith.

Of the 3 witnesses, Martin Harris served a mission in England for Strang. Shortly after the mission, he joined the Whitmerites.  Then he joined Gladden Bishop's group and then William Smith's group.  He finally ended back in Utah and was rebaptized.  David Whitmer possibly accepted Strang (see the letter from Hiram Page) but then became a leader of the Whitmerites.  Oliver Cowdery moved near Voree, Wisconsin but there isn't any known information that he accepted Strang (his father and brother did).  He then joined the Whitmerites and then was later rebaptized in the church.

So, of the 6 witnesses that were alive, 1 is absolutely known to accept Strang (Martin Harris), 3 have a high likelihood of accepting him (John Whitmer, Hiram Page, David Whitmer), 1 is a possibility (Oliver Cowdery), and 1 has no information (Jacob Whitmer).  All of the 6 left Joseph Smith before Nauvoo.  Within 2 years of Joseph's death, the 5 that possibly accepted Strang joined the Whitmerites.  And 2 of them later rebaptized into the Brighamites.

[webbles]

13 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

I'd like to hear an explanation as to why it might remain excluded.

It looks like it is owned by Yale and they have it available to view online at https://collections.library.yale.edu/catalog/2025934

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Maybe.

My wife has a very strong testimony of the gospel. Because her son has distanced himself from the church, I felt she might find value in Mike Ash's book, "Shaken Faith Syndrome". I got her the book, and she started reading it, but it made her too uncomfortable, so she stopped. Should I have pressured her to keep reading it, in order to inoculate her? Is her failure to inoculate herself going to prove dangerous?

Of course you shouldn't pressure people.  Not what I said at all.  But hoping people never discover things only leads to people being surprised and shocked when they do.
 

Quote

To some people, discussing Joseph's practice of polygamy can be painful because it seems to be dragging one's testimony of Joseph through the mud.  You don't see this?  

Of course I do.  So do we wait until the information gets dropped on them and it crushes their testimony or do we naively think we can protect them from learning troubling facts?

[Stargazer]

48 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Of course you shouldn't pressure people.  Not what I said at all.  But hoping people never discover things only leads to people being surprised and shocked when they do.

If they don't want to discuss it or hear it, then on the one hand, that's a kind of inoculation in itself. Not a very good one, but avoiding the plague by staying away from its carriers is more effective than giving them a big sloppy kiss. Sorry for the imagery.  

And I don't know what to do about those who would rather not confront it. Except allow them the bliss of ignorance.

48 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

 

Of course I do.  So do we wait until the information gets dropped on them and it crushes their testimony or do we naively think we can protect them from learning troubling facts?

I don't think I can propose a rule.  We're discussing the subject at the stake level where I am. I'll let you know what the consensus is.

[Nevo]

On 2/12/2021 at 9:39 AM, webbles said:

Of the 8 witnesses, 3 were alive after the deaths of Joseph Smith: Jacob Whitmer, John Whitmer, and Hiram Page.  I can't find anything about Jacob Whitmer joining or accepting any other claimant.  He stayed back in Missouri and didn't go to Nauvoo and probably stopped accepting Joseph Smith.  According to the link from Rajah, Hiram Page sent a letter to Strang and said that he, John, and David Whitmer accepted Strang's claim.  But they all joined the Whitmerites (which William McLellan and David Whitmer kind of started) by 1847.  So if they did accept Strang, it was only for a year or two.  They also had stayed back in Missouri as well and so had probably stopped accepting Joseph Smith.

Of the 3 witnesses, Martin Harris served a mission in England for Strang. Shortly after the mission, he joined the Whitmerites.  Then he joined Gladden Bishop's group and then William Smith's group.  He finally ended back in Utah and was rebaptized.  David Whitmer possibly accepted Strang (see the letter from Hiram Page) but then became a leader of the Whitmerites.  Oliver Cowdery moved near Voree, Wisconsin but there isn't any known information that he accepted Strang (his father and brother did).  He then joined the Whitmerites and then was later rebaptized in the church.

So, of the 6 witnesses that were alive, 1 is absolutely known to accept Strang (Martin Harris), 3 have a high likelihood of accepting him (John Whitmer, Hiram Page, David Whitmer), 1 is a possibility (Oliver Cowdery), and 1 has no information (Jacob Whitmer).  All of the 6 left Joseph Smith before Nauvoo.  Within 2 years of Joseph's death, the 5 that possibly accepted Strang joined the Whitmerites.  And 2 of them later rebaptized into the Brighamites.

I've been looking into this too.

McLellin reported in a December 1846 letter to David Whitmer that Strang had told him "that all the witnesses to the book of Mormon yet alive were with him, except Oliver."

Strang's claim was based on a letter that he had received from Hiram Page earlier in the year. Strang described the letter in a January 1848 editorial: 

Quote

[E]arly in 1846 the tract reprint of the first number of the Voree Herald, containing the evidence of my calling and authority, strayed into upper Missouri. Immediately I received a letter from Hiram Page, one of the witnesses of the Book of Mormon, and a neighbor and friend to the Whitmers, informing me that he had received that tract and read it with joy and gladness, and went on to tell at length of reading it to the two Whitmers who lived near him [David and John], and that they rejoiced with exceeding joy that God had raised up one to stand in place of Joseph, and was so much overjoyed that they could not rest till they had gone and communicated the glad news to their brother who lived at some distance [Jacob]. He goes on to say that all the witnesses of the Book of Mormon living in that region received the news with gladness, and finally that they held a council in which David and John Whitmer and this Hiram Page were the principal actors; and being at a loss what they ought to do about coming to Voree, sent up to me as a PROPHET of God to tell them what to do.

It appears the original letter has not survived, so we have only Strang's account of what it said. It's likely, however, that the letter was supportive, since John Whitmer wrote the following in his history around the same time:

Quote

God knowing all things prepared a man whom he visited by an angel of God and showed him where there were some ancient Record hid, and also put in his heart to desire of Smith to Grant him power to establish a stake to Zion in Wisconsan Tarrytory, whose name is James J. Strang. Now at first Smith was unfavorably disposed to grant him this request but b[e]ing troubleed in spirit and knowing from the things that were staring him in his face that his days must soon be closed— therefore he enquired of the Lord and behold the Lord said appoint James Js Strang a Prophet Seer <&> Revelator unto my church for thou shalt shurly die a martor, thy Cup is bitter &c Shortly after this appointment of Strangs the mob gathered and took by Strategem Joseph & Hyrum Smith conveyed them to Carthage the Seat of Justice in & for the Co. of Caldwell. <Hancock> as if to try them by the law of the land, but insted of trying them by the law of the land for their crimes they murdered them & thus the Lords annointed fell by the brutal hand of men. & they are gone the way of all the earth. & Strangs Reigns in the place of Smith the author and proprietor of the Book of Mormon.

The Joseph Smith Papers state that Whitmer "indicated allegiance to Strang from as early as September 1846, but it appears that by September 1847 he was no longer affiliated with Strang, supporting instead his brother David Whitmer as JS’s appointed successor."

So it appears that John Whitmer and Hiram Page and probably David Whitmer accepted Strang's succession claim for a year or so, but they never joined him in Wisconsin (Page noted in an 1849 letter that he didn't believe in gathering) and they had no connection with him after September 1847. As far as I can tell, Strang never claimed Oliver Cowdery as a supporter. The only witness who went "all in" for Strang was Martin Harris.

As for the Smith family's connection with Strang, see this post: https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/66724-james-strang/?tab=comments#comment-1209575218

 

Edited February 13, 2021 by Nevo

[Tacenda]

On 2/12/2021 at 7:26 AM, Stargazer said:

Maybe.

My wife has a very strong testimony of the gospel. Because her son has distanced himself from the church, I felt she might find value in Mike Ash's book, "Shaken Faith Syndrome". I got her the book, and she started reading it, but it made her too uncomfortable, so she stopped. Should I have pressured her to keep reading it, in order to inoculate her? Is her failure to inoculate herself going to prove dangerous?

To some people, discussing Joseph's practice of polygamy can be painful because it seems to be dragging one's testimony of Joseph through the mud.  You don't see this?  

 

I wonder if it might help to know that Mike Ash is Elder Uchtdorf's nephew. At least I thought I'd read that. Has she read the Saints book? Or read over the gospel topic essays?

[Calm]

14 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I wonder if it might help to know that Mike Ash is Elder Uchtdorf's nephew. At least I thought I'd read that.

Mike doesn’t use that at all to up his credibility, it was years before I found out (he was mentioning his mom, not his uncle).  I don’t think that is a good idea because it may look like Mike himself is trying to increase his own importance when he never has to my knowledge done so. Goes out of his way imo not to. 

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Mike doesn’t use that at all to up his credibility, it was years before I found out (he was mentioning his mom, not his uncle).  I don’t think that is a good idea because it may look like Mike himself is trying to increase his own importance when he never has to my knowledge done so. Goes out of his way imo not to. 

Respectfully, I didn't say he did. Just thought it might be comforting to Stargazer's wife. 

Edited February 14, 2021 by Tacenda

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Respectfully, I didn't say he did. Just thought it might be comforting to Stargazer's wife. 

I didn’t say you did. I was saying why it wouldn’t be a good idea to go that route as people might get the wrong idea.  

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I didn’t say you did. I was saying why it wouldn’t be a good idea to go that route as people might get the wrong idea.  

Oh, sounds good.

[Stargazer]

On 2/14/2021 at 1:00 AM, Tacenda said:

I wonder if it might help to know that Mike Ash is Elder Uchtdorf's nephew. At least I thought I'd read that. Has she read the Saints book? Or read over the gospel topic essays?

I'm pretty sure it wouldn't matter whose nephew he is!  She's just not as willing as I am to dig into "difficult topics". I actually find them faith promoting, if you can believe that. I'm pretty sure she has read some in the Saints book -- I'll have to ask her about the gospel topic essays.

[Tacenda]

1 minute ago, Stargazer said:

I'm pretty sure it wouldn't matter whose nephew he is!  She's just not as willing as I am to dig into "difficult topics". I actually find them faith promoting, if you can believe that. I'm pretty sure she has read some in the Saints book -- I'll have to ask her about the gospel topic essays.

What exactly stopped her from reading further in Ash's book? I've read "Planted" by Patrick Mason. I wonder if they are similar in nature and content. Or if it would be a better read for her.

[Stargazer]

25 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

What exactly stopped her from reading further in Ash's book? I've read "Planted" by Patrick Mason. I wonder if they are similar in nature and content. Or if it would be a better read for her.

We didn't discuss what discouraged her, I am sorry to say.