Thoughts on D&C 1

[LDS Watchman]

Section 1 is the Lord's preface to His Book of Commandments (Doctrine and Covenants). In this revelation the Lord is speaking primarily to the members of the church (those who will read the words contained in the D&C), but also to the world at large. 

Let's look at 4 verses from this section. Who is the Lord speaking to in these verses?

13 And the anger of the Lord is kindled, and his sword is bathed in heaven, and it shall fall upon the inhabitants of the earth.
14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;
15 For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant;
16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth old and shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the great, which shall fall.

It seems to me that the Lord is primarily speaking to the members of the church here.

Here is how I understand these verses:

Destruction is going to be coming upon the world very soon, because the Lord is angry about the wickedness of the world.

Prior to this great destruction, which is to precede the Lord's second coming, "the arm of the Lord shall be revealed." The "arm of the Lord" is a mighty prophet whose mission it is to prepare the way for the Lord's second coming. He is referred to by several different names in the scriptures, including Elias who will restore all things, the One Mighty and Strong, and the Davidic Servant. He will set the Lords house in order, restore all things, and lead the gathering of the tribes of Israel to Zion.

When this mighty prophet is sent forth, the day will be at hand that those who have not heeded the words of the Lord, which he has given by his own mouth, by the Holy Ghost, and by the mouths of his servants, will be "cut off from among the people." What this means is that those members of the church who have not believed and followed the commandments of the Lord will be removed from the house of Israel and will not be gathered to the New Jerusalem. These members will be destroyed along with the wicked. 

The Lord then mentions some of the sins that these members are guilty of. Their sins include straying from the Lord's ordinances and breaking the Lord's everlasting covenant. This must be referring to the members of the church, because only those who have received the Lord's ordinances and his everlasting covenant could have broken it. 

These members of the church do not seek the Lord to establish his righteousness. Instead they each walk after their own way after the image of their own God. These members don't really care what God wants, instead they do what they want. They follow after the world and then they convince themselves that God is okay with it. They image for themselves a God whose laws and doctrines have changed to match the philosophies of the world. In this they deceive themselves. And unless they repent and seek to truly know God and establish his righteousness, they and their false Gods will perish when Babylon is destroyed. 

Anyone have any other thoughts about what these verses are referring to?

Edited January 3, 2021 by LDS Watchman

[InCognitus]

21 minutes ago, LDS Watchman said:

Let's look at 4 verses from this section. Who is the Lord speaking to in these verses?

13 And the anger of the Lord is kindled, and his sword is bathed in heaven, and it shall fall upon the inhabitants of the earth.
14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;
15 For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant;
16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth old and shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the great, which shall fall.

It seems to me that the Lord is primarily speaking to the members of the church here.

This is the preface to the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Lord is introducing the purpose for the restoration, not pronouncing judgement against the church he is still in the process of organizing (at the time of giving the revelation). I don't agree that these specific verses are speaking to members of the church for several reasons. 

First, the section sets the audience in verses 1 and 2:  

Quote

1 Hearken, O ye people of my church, saith the voice of him who dwells on high, and whose eyes are upon all men; yea, verily I say: Hearken ye people from afar; and ye that are upon the islands of the sea, listen together.
2 For verily the voice of the Lord is unto all men, and there is none to escape; and there is no eye that shall not see, neither ear that shall not hear, neither heart that shall not be penetrated.
(Doctrine and Covenants 1:1–2)

Second, the part that I bolded above in your quote from verses 15 and 16 of section 1 is the same kind of language as in Isaiah 24:5.  "The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant."  And also Joshua 23:16:  "When ye have transgressed the covenant of the Lord your God, which he commanded you, and have gone and served other gods, and bowed yourselves to them; then shall the anger of the Lord be kindled against you, and ye shall perish quickly from off the good land which he hath given unto you."  The "covenants" were given to Israel and to those in New Testament times too. 

Those covenants and commandments were "broken" through the apostasy of the church after the death of the apostles, and this is made clear in the 1832 account of Joseph Smith's first vision (here ) that uses very similar language:

Quote

Behold, the world lieth in sin at this time, and none doeth good, no, not one. They have turned aside from the gospel and keep not my commandments. They draw near to me with their lips while their hearts are far from me. And mine anger is kindling against the inhabitants of the earth, to visit them according to their ungodliness and to bring to pass that which hath been spoken by the mouth of the prophets and apostles. 

Notice that this is very much the same as what is said in D&C 1:15-16, and this was given by the Lord to Joseph Smith long before the church was restored and organized.  Sounds like the same language, doesn't it?

And finally, I disagree with your interpretation because of what the Lord says about the church "collectively" later in the same section:

"And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually" (Doctrine and Covenants 1:30)

Obviously individuals may break their covenants and fall away, but the Lord is pleased with the church "collectively" and he intends to keep it that way until the second coming.  It shall "never be destroyed" or "left to another people".

[Nevo]

55 minutes ago, LDS Watchman said:

Anyone have any other thoughts about what these verses are referring to?

I think verses 13–16 are primarily addressed to "the inhabitants of the earth" (see v. 6, 11, 13, 17).

I read "the arm of the Lord shall be revealed" as a poetic way of saying "the might of the Lord shall be revealed." I don't think "the arm of the Lord" refers to a person any more than "the anger of the Lord" in the preceding verse refers to a person.

I don't believe there's some hidden subtext here about "the One Mighty and Strong, and the Davidic Servant."

 

 

[JLHPROF]

Sorry but I don't believe this section has anything to do with the one mighty and strong or the Davidic servant.  But that doesn't stop the ark steadiers and sagebrush prophets popping up.  The One Mighty and Strong is not some random person who claims God called them.

However verse 15 would have to refer to Church members in our day since we have the ordinances and are under the covenant to break.    It specified this is a future event in the preceding verse showing it's not a reference to the Great Apostasy.

[LDS Watchman]

9 hours ago, InCognitus said:

This is the preface to the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Lord is introducing the purpose for the restoration, not pronouncing judgement against the church he is still in the process of organizing (at the time of giving the revelation). I don't agree that these specific verses are speaking to members of the church for several reasons. 

I agree that ONE of the purposes of this preface was for the Lord to introduce the purpose of the restoration. I also agree that he was not pronouncing condemnation upon the church which had just been formally organized a year and a half earlier. 

It must be remembered however, that this preface was not just intended for the Saints in 1831. The Lord knew that the members of the church in our day would be reading this, too. The message is also for us almost 200 years later. 

9 hours ago, InCognitus said:

First, the section sets the audience in verses 1 and 2:  

You forgot to bold the very first line from the preface, which is "Hearken, O ye people of my church."

The message of this preface and the entire D&C is primarily for the members of the church.

9 hours ago, InCognitus said:

Second, the part that I bolded above in your quote from verses 15 and 16 of section 1 is the same kind of language as in Isaiah 24:5.  "The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant."  And also Joshua 23:16:  "When ye have transgressed the covenant of the Lord your God, which he commanded you, and have gone and served other gods, and bowed yourselves to them; then shall the anger of the Lord be kindled against you, and ye shall perish quickly from off the good land which he hath given unto you."  The "covenants" were given to Israel and to those in New Testament times too. 

Yes the covenants were given to ancient Isreal and in New Testament times. Those covenants were broken. To the 1831 Saints this was no doubt a reference to the great apostasy. It is to us as well. The Savior's statement to Joseph Smith at the time of the first vision is also referring to this. 

However, this doesn't mean that members of the church today have not also strayed from the ordinances and broken the everlasting covenant. We ought to do as Nephi did and liken all scriptures unto us to see how they apply to us today, instead of attributing all negative scriptures to some other people long ago and giving ourselves a pat on the back for being so much more righteous than the Lord's ancient covenant people.

If we look at the similar reference in Isaiah 24, we see a timeline which shows that the destruction comes upon the wicked in the last days because they have broken the everlasting covenant and strayed from the ordinances.

3 The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the Lord hath spoken this word.
4 The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.
5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.

In the Book of Mormon we are commanded multiple times to search the words of Isaiah, because the words of Isaiah are directed at Israel and not the world at large. In this case the destruction that is coming because Israel broke the everlasting covenant has not yet occurred. Therefore, it is safe to assume that this prophecy in Isaiah and in D&C was of the future and not merely a history lesson about the past. 

11 hours ago, InCognitus said:

And finally, I disagree with your interpretation because of what the Lord says about the church "collectively" later in the same section:

"And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually" (Doctrine and Covenants 1:30)

Obviously individuals may break their covenants and fall away, but the Lord is pleased with the church "collectively" and he intends to keep it that way until the second coming.  It shall "never be destroyed" or "left to another people".

I believe that it is foolish to assume that just because the Lord said he was well pleased with the church collectively in 1831, that he will always remain collectively pleased with the church right up to the millennium.

Here's scriptures to consider:

54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—
55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.
56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.
57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—
58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.
59 For shall the children of the kingdom pollute my holy land? Verily, I say unto you, Nay.

(D&C 84)

In September 1832 the Lord declared that the church was collectively under condemnation, which means at that point in time he was not well pleased with the church collectively. 

Just like this condemnation of the church in 1832 does not automatically mean that the church today is still under condemnation, the Lord's declaration that he was well pleased with the church collectively in 1831 doesn't automatically mean that he is still well pleased with the church collectively today. 

[JLHPROF]

3 minutes ago, LDS Watchman said:

I agree that ONE of the purposes of this preface was for the Lord to introduce the purpose of the restoration. I also agree that he was not pronouncing condemnation upon the church which had just been formally organized a year and a half earlier. 

It must be remembered however, that this preface was not just intended for the Saints in 1831. The Lord knew that the members of the church in our day would be reading this, too. The message is also for us almost 200 years later. 

You forgot to bold the very first line from the preface, which is "Hearken, O ye people of my church."

The message of this preface and the entire D&C is primarily for the members of the church.

Yes the covenants were given to ancient Isreal and in New Testament times. Those covenants were broken. To the 1831 Saints this was no doubt a reference to the great apostasy. It is to us as well. The Savior's statement to Joseph Smith at the time of the first vision is also referring to this. 

However, this doesn't mean that members of the church today have not also strayed from the ordinances and broken the everlasting covenant. We ought to do as Nephi did and liken all scriptures unto us to see how they apply to us today, instead of attributing all negative scriptures to some other people long ago and giving ourselves a pat on the back for being so much more righteous than the Lord's ancient covenant people.

If we look at the similar reference in Isaiah 24, we see a timeline which shows that the destruction comes upon the wicked in the last days because they have broken the everlasting covenant and strayed from the ordinances.

3 The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the Lord hath spoken this word.
4 The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.
5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.

In the Book of Mormon we are commanded multiple times to search the words of Isaiah, because the words of Isaiah are directed at Israel and not the world at large. In this case the destruction that is coming because Israel broke the everlasting covenant has not yet occurred. Therefore, it is safe to assume that this prophecy in Isaiah and in D&C was of the future and not merely a history lesson about the past. 

I believe that it is foolish to assume that just because the Lord said he was well pleased with the church collectively in 1831, that he will always remain collectively pleased with the church right up to the millennium.

Here's scriptures to consider:

54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—
55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.
56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.
57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—
58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.
59 For shall the children of the kingdom pollute my holy land? Verily, I say unto you, Nay.

(D&C 84)

In September 1832 the Lord declared that the church was collectively under condemnation, which means at that point in time he was not well pleased with the church collectively. 

Just like this condemnation of the church in 1832 does not automatically mean that the church today is still under condemnation, the Lord's declaration that he was well pleased with the church collectively in 1831 doesn't automatically mean that he is still well pleased with the church collectively today. 

You seem determined to prove that the Church is in a state of general apostasy.

Now normally I'd be among the first on this board to stand for revelatory truths that the Church has set aside in recent decades.  I'm about as old school doctrinally as it gets without turning fundamentalist.

But ark steadiers, those who rise up condemning the leaders, or proclaiming from the housetops that the Church has fallen away always have an agenda.  So what would you like to see happen?  And who is your previously mentioned one Mighty and Strong to make it happen?

Because this is still God's Church and he will correct any deviation from his will in his own time and way.

[LDS Watchman]

11 hours ago, Nevo said:

I read "the arm of the Lord shall be revealed" as a poetic way of saying "the might of the Lord shall be revealed." I don't think "the arm of the Lord" refers to a person any more than "the anger of the Lord" in the preceding verse refers to a person.

What do you make of this scripture about the arm of the Lord?

9 ¶ Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the Lord; awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. Art thou not it that hath cut Rahab, and wounded the dragon?
10 Art thou not it which hath dried the sea, the waters of the great deep; that hath made the depths of the sea a way for the ransomed to pass over?

(Isaiah 54)

Does this not sound like the arm of the Lord is an individual?

11 hours ago, Nevo said:

I don't believe there's some hidden subtext here about "the One Mighty and Strong, and the Davidic Servant."

There are a number of scriptures which speak of this last days prophet. Some are very obvious and others are hidden or cryptic. This prophet will be sent forth to prepare the Lord's return, just like John the Baptist was sent forth to prepare the way for the first coming of the Savior. 

It makes sense to me that the Lord would make a cryptic reference to this prophet when speaking about the events which will immediately precede his return. 

[LDS Watchman]

9 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I don't believe this section has anything to do with the one mighty and strong or the Davidic servant.  But that doesn't stop the ark steadiers and sagebrush prophets popping up. 

Who or what do you believe the "arm of the Lord" refers to?

I agree that there have been many ark steadiers who claim to be the One Mighty and Strong. But just because there have been many false prophets claiming to be the One Mighty and Strong does not mean that there won't be a real One Mighty and Strong sent forth in the future. There were also false Christ's who preceded the coming of Christ. Imposters didn't negate his true coming. 

9 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

The One Mighty and Strong is not some random person who claims God called them.

I completely agree. The One Mighty and Strong will not be some random person. This great prophet has been prepared for this calling since the foundation of the world. His ministry is in the future. 

9 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

However verse 15 would have to refer to Church members in our day since we have the ordinances and are under the covenant to break.    It specified this is a future event in the preceding verse showing it's not a reference to the Great Apostasy.

I completely agree.

[LDS Watchman]

17 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

You seem determined to prove that the Church is in a state of general apostasy.

I'm not determined to prove that the church is in a state of general apostasy. But I do believe we are in serious trouble and have largely turned away from God collectively. 

19 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

But ark steadiers, those who rise up condemning the leaders, or proclaiming from the housetops that the Church has fallen away always have an agenda.  So what would you like to see happen?  And who is your previously mentioned one Mighty and Strong to make it happen?

I have no such agenda, nor am I an "ark steadier." I don't have any proposed individual who I believe is the One Mighty and Strong. 

What I would like to see happen is for the general church membership to search the scriptures more and discover for themselves what is really going on in the world today and what they personally need to repent of. 

22 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Because this is still God's Church and he will correct any deviation from his will in his own time and way.

I completely agree here. This is still the Lord's church. I never suggested otherwise. The Lord will correct our deviation in his own time and in his own way. The Lord has also given us many clues throughout the scriptures as to how he plans on making these corrections.

[JLHPROF]

29 minutes ago, LDS Watchman said:

His ministry is in the future. 

No, it's not.

Read the description of him.

Edited January 3, 2021 by JLHPROF

[LDS Watchman]

12 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

No, it's not.

Read the description of him.

I have read the description of him. Why do you say his mission is not a future event?

[JLHPROF]

2 minutes ago, LDS Watchman said:

I have read the description of him. Why do you say his mission is not a future event?

I didn't.  I said his ministry isn't a future event.  He's already lived and ministered on earth.  His future mission is a continuation of that earthly ministry.

[bluebell]

I know that a lot of people read verse 15 as if it's referring to the church in general in the last days but I think that verse 15 is specifically speaking about those who the Lord described in verse 14 and not about the church as a whole.

14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;
15 For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant;
16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth old and shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the great, which shall fall.

Those who have strayed from the ordinances and broken God's everlasting covenant are those who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of His servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, but have set themselves and their understanding up as the standard for what should be done and taught and what shouldn't be. 

[LDS Watchman]

Just now, JLHPROF said:

He's already lived and ministered on earth.  His future mission is a continuation of that earthly ministry.

This is very likely true, based on the descriptions of him in the scriptures, though I wouldn't say it's a certainty that he has already "lived and ministered on earth" in a physical body. 

Who do you think the One Mighty and Strong is? Joseph Smith? John the Beloved? Someone else?

[LDS Watchman]

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I know that a lot of people read verse 15 as if it's referring to the church in general in the last days but I think that verse 15 is specifically speaking about those who the Lord described in verse 14 and not about the church as a whole.

14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;
15 For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant;
16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth old and shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the great, which shall fall.

Those who have strayed from the ordinances and broken God's everlasting covenant are those who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of His servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, but have set themselves and their understanding up as the standard for what should be done and taught and what shouldn't be. 

So you believe that these verses are referring to members of the church then?

[bluebell]

5 minutes ago, LDS Watchman said:

So you believe that these verses are referring to members of the church then?

I'm not sure definitively but I lean towards that understanding.  That only members of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have the ability to break God's everlasting covenant, according to my understanding of how the Lord is using that term in this section. 

I'm open to the idea that He might be using that term differently than I am interpreting it though, knowing as I do that anyone--member or not--can be a part of the church of the Lamb.

[Tacenda]

12 minutes ago, LDS Watchman said:

This is very likely true, based on the descriptions of him in the scriptures, though I wouldn't say it's a certainty that he has already "lived and ministered on earth" in a physical body. 

Who do you think the One Mighty and Strong is? Joseph Smith? John the Beloved? Someone else?

I saw this after googling. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Mighty_and_Strong#:~:text=The One Mighty and Strong was said by Smith to,the One Mighty and Strong.

The One Mighty and Strong was said by Smith to be one who would "set in order the house of God" and arrange for the "inheritances of the [Latter Day] Saints." Since the prophecy was proclaimed, many Latter Day Saints have claimed to be or to have otherwise identified the One Mighty and Strong.

 

Smith's prophecy[edit]

In a letter written to William W. Phelps on November 27, 1832, Joseph Smith transcribed a revelation that he said he received from Jesus Christ:

[I]t shall come to pass, that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong, holding the sceptre of power in his hand, clothed with light for a covering, whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words; while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth, to set in order the house of God, and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the Saints, whose names are found, and the names of their fathers, and of their children enrolled in the book of the law of God: while that man, who was called of God and appointed, that putteth forth his hand to steady the ark of God, shall fall by the vivid shaft of lightning.... These things I say not of myself; therefore, as the Lord speaketh, He will also fulfill.[2][3]

Smith never publicly revealed the identity of the "One Mighty and Strong" referred to in this prophecy.

In a letter to Brigham Young, dated May 6, 1867, Phelps mentioned that he believed that Smith's prophecy refers to Adam and his future arrival at Adam-ondi-Ahman.[4]

[LDS Watchman]

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

I lean towards that understanding.  That only members of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have the ability to break God's everlasting covenant, according to my understanding of how the Lord is using that term in this section. 

I believe that your understanding here is the only correct and logical conclusion.

It seems that you believe these verses are a condemnation upon a minority group of fault finders in the church, rather than the typical member who believes all is well with the current state of affairs in the church. 

I would suggest that the scriptures speak of a righteous minority of the church who will remain true to the everlasting covenant, while the majority will be cut off for straying from the ordinances and breaking the everlasting covenant. 

It has always been this way. The majority wander onto forbidden paths, while a minority stays on the straight and narrow path.

[LDS Watchman]

7 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Smith never publicly revealed the identity of the "One Mighty and Strong" referred to in this prophecy.

In a letter to Brigham Young, dated May 6, 1867, Phelps mentioned that he believed that Smith's prophecy refers to Adam and his future arrival at Adam-ondi-Ahman.

There certainly has been a great deal of speculation in the church over the years as to who the One Mighty and Strong prophecy is referring to. 

[rongo]

25 minutes ago, LDS Watchman said:

Who do you think the One Mighty and Strong is? Joseph Smith? John the Beloved? Someone else?

I arrived in the Germany Hamburg Mission October 27, 1994. Very soon after that, we had a mission conference with Elder Wirthlin in the Wartenau building. He told us that John the Revelator was instrumental and played a key role in the fall of the Berlin Wall and in the opening up of Eastern Europe for missionary work. It wasn't a Q&A setting, and I didn't have an opportunity to ask him about it afterwards, but man, did I want more details about that! I think their hand (translated beings) in a lot of things will be made manifest when we have all the details. 

Not the sort of statement an apostle is likely to make in our era, any more.   I know that @Duncan also heard something similar from an apostle at roughly the same time (mid to late 90s).

[Duncan]

13 minutes ago, rongo said:

I arrived in the Germany Hamburg Mission October 27, 1994. Very soon after that, we had a mission conference with Elder Wirthlin in the Wartenau building. He told us that John the Revelator was instrumental and played a key role in the fall of the Berlin Wall and in the opening up of Eastern Europe for missionary work. It wasn't a Q&A setting, and I didn't have an opportunity to ask him about it afterwards, but man, did I want more details about that! I think their hand (translated beings) in a lot of things will be made manifest when we have all the details. 

Not the sort of statement an apostle is likely to make in our era, any more.   I know that @Duncan also heard something similar from an apostle at roughly the same time (mid to late 90s).

He did, he did! He said that John the Revelator had more to do with the fall of communism than we think. This was Aug. of 1998. I remember thinking I was 11 in 1989 I never thought tickety-boo about the fall of communism. He shared some 3 Nephite stories as well, i'd have to to go back and get my notes. I remember him saying that he knows their names and that we were to write them down. Of course you're like what is this?! But he told us he knew their names and had us turn to 3 Nephi 19 :4 and said they are all right there. SMH!!!!!!!!!!!!!😶

[JLHPROF]

D&C 85:7 And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong,

1. holding the scepter of power in his hand,

Priesthood authority sent by the Lord

D&C 90:3 Verily I say unto you, the keys of this kingdom shall never be taken from you,

2. clothed with light for a covering,

D&C 90:3 cont - while thou art in the world, neither in the world to come

Resurrected being

3. whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words; while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth,

Revelator

D&C 90:4 Nevertheless, through you shall the oracles be given to another, yea, even unto the church

4. to set in order the house of God,and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints

D&C 90:16 And this shall be your business and mission in all your lives, to preside in council, and set in order all the affairs of this church and kingdom.

 

Anyone else claiming to be the One Mighty and Strong can be summarily ignored.  They don't qualify.

Oh, and as for the Arm of the Lord:

D&C 90:10 And then cometh the day when the arm of the Lord shall be revealed in power in convincing the nations, the heathen nations, the house of Joseph, of the gospel of their salvation.
            11 For it shall come to pass in that day, that every man shall hear the fulness of the gospel in his own tongue, and in his own language, through those who are ordained unto this power, by the administration of the Comforter, shed forth upon them for the revelation of Jesus Christ

The arm is not an individual but a reference to the hunters of men who will replace the fishers going out with priesthood power to gather the elect.  It's a reference to when God himself will take an active hand, preach his own sermons and direct men in power.

[Nevo]

3 hours ago, LDS Watchman said:

What do you make of this scripture about the arm of the Lord?

9 ¶ Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the Lord; awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. Art thou not it that hath cut Rahab, and wounded the dragon?
10 Art thou not it which hath dried the sea, the waters of the great deep; that hath made the depths of the sea a way for the ransomed to pass over?

Does this not sound like the arm of the Lord is an individual?

What do I make of that scripture? The prophet is invoking YHWH's arm, which symbolizes his power. The deeds ascribed to YHWH's arm in these verses are deeds that the Lord himself performed in the past—subduing chaos at the creation and delivering the Israelites from Egypt. The Lord's reply in 51:12–19 makes it clear that verses 9–10 are addressed to him.

Edited January 3, 2021 by Nevo

[JLHPROF]

15 minutes ago, Nevo said:

What do I make of that scripture? The prophet is invoking YHWH's arm, which symbolizes his power. The deeds ascribed to YHWH's arm in these verses are deeds that the Lord himself performed in the past—subduing chaos at the creation and delivering the Israelites from Egypt. The Lord's reply in 51:12–19 makes it clear that verses 9–10 are addressed to him.

And God's power is known as priesthood.  Moses and Aaron were his arm in your reference.  

[LDS Watchman]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

D&C 85:7 And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong,

1. holding the scepter of power in his hand,

Priesthood authority sent by the Lord

D&C 90:3 Verily I say unto you, the keys of this kingdom shall never be taken from you,

2. clothed with light for a covering,

D&C 90:3 cont - while thou art in the world, neither in the world to come

Resurrected being

3. whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words; while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth,

Revelator

D&C 90:4 Nevertheless, through you shall the oracles be given to another, yea, even unto the church

4. to set in order the house of God,and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints

D&C 90:16 And this shall be your business and mission in all your lives, to preside in council, and set in order all the affairs of this church and kingdom.

So you believe the One Mighty and Strong is Joseph Smith who will be returning to finish his work then?

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

D&C 90:10 And then cometh the day when the arm of the Lord shall be revealed in power in convincing the nations, the heathen nations, the house of Joseph, of the gospel of their salvation.
            11 For it shall come to pass in that day, that every man shall hear the fulness of the gospel in his own tongue, and in his own language, through those who are ordained unto this power, by the administration of the Comforter, shed forth upon them for the revelation of Jesus Christ

The arm is not an individual but a reference to the hunters of men who will replace the fishers going out with priesthood power to gather the elect.  It's a reference to when God himself will take an active hand, preach his own sermons and direct men in power.

If you search the prophecies about these last days "hunters of men" you will find that they are being led by someone. This someone is not God himself, but a servant who works under his direction.