InCognitus Posted January 5, 2021 Posted January 5, 2021 (edited) 18 hours ago, LDS Watchman said: On 1/3/2021 at 11:13 PM, InCognitus said: But it is impossible for the language of verses 13 to 16 to be referring to the church collectively, or to the leadership of the church as a whole First of all, I never said that these verses referred to the "church collectively" or the "leadership of the church as a whole." I said that I believe that these verses are directed at members of the church. You then insisted that this was impossible and that the world was being addressed instead. As for whether or not these verses refer to the church collectively and the leadership of the church as a whole, this is not impossible, either. If you read the prophecies about the last days in the scriptures, the state of the house of Israel just prior to the Lord's return is not good, though there are some who are righteous and faithful. Obviously I've expressed some concerns about the current state of the church, which is why you and others are up in arms, but I'm certainly not suggesting that the church is wicked while I am righteous. It's not my place to pronounce judgment upon the church collectively, but I am justified in searching the scriptures and likening them to us, which is all I'm doing. I'm just trying to determine to what degree you believe the "church" has strayed from the ordinances and "broken the everlasting covenant", and what you mean by "church". When you say "church" it includes the leadership. If you mean (as I said in my post) that a certain percentage of the membership has strayed, then that's a different issue altogether. Elsewhere you have expressed concerns over "changes to the ordinances of the temple" and other changes in the church generally. Where do you think those changes come from if not from the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve? If the changes are from the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve, then aren't you really saying that this is caused by the "leadership of the church as a whole"? I'm just trying to connect the dots and understand where you are going with your viewpoint. 18 hours ago, LDS Watchman said: This is an excellent point and you are completely correct here. The Lord saw the calamity that was coming upon the earth because the people had strayed from his ordinances and broken the everlasting covenant, so he restored the fulness of the gospel and restablished the everlasting covenant through Joseph Smith. This however does not automatically mean that 200 years later all is well in the church collectively. I agree, that it doesn't mean "all is well" collectively at all times, but what it DOES indicate is that the Lord has a means in place to correct it: A prophet and quorum of the twelve apostles, through which organization he can make the corrections himself. As you pointed out, there were times when the Lord was not pleased with what was going on. So what did he do? He gave a revelation to the prophet to correct it. And that is the process outlined in Section 1 of the D&C: Quote 24 Behold, I am God and have spoken it; these commandments are of me, and were given unto my servants in their weakness, after the manner of their language, that they might come to understanding. 25 And inasmuch as they erred it might be made known; 26 And inasmuch as they sought wisdom they might be instructed; 27 And inasmuch as they sinned they might be chastened, that they might repent; 28 And inasmuch as they were humble they might be made strong, and blessed from on high, and receive knowledge from time to time. (Doctrine and Covenants 1:24–28) 18 hours ago, LDS Watchman said: You obviously don't know what the Lord is saying here. The Lord had called the weak things of this earth, like the unlearned farm boy Joseph Smith, to confound the mighty and strong ONES (plural), meaning the wisdom of the world. The reference to the the weak things of the earth does not negate the prophecy the Lord gave of the One Mighty and Strong in D&C 85 or the many other prophecies of the coming of a last days servant in the near future. I was not in any way implying that the "mighty and strong" of verse 19 was referring to the "mighty and strong" of D&C 85. I view D&C 1:19 in the exact same way that Paul spoke to the saints at Corinth: "But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty" (1 Corinthians 1:27). But I think you are taking the "one mighty and strong" from D&C 85 way out of context. Have you read the statement from the First Presidency of the church about the "one mighty and strong" from D&C 85, as published in the Improvement Era, Volume 10, October 1907, pp. 929-943? Follow the link, it's online. 18 hours ago, LDS Watchman said: This authority and power was restored and in their weakness Joseph Smith and others laid the foundation for the Lord's church and began to bring it forth out of darkness. The church has grown and expanded since then. Much good has been accomplished by the church. But this doesn't mean that over time we couldn't possibly have stumbled. And if there is stumbling, the Lord will make the correction through the Prophet, the First Presidency, and the Quorum of the Twelve apostles. 18 hours ago, LDS Watchman said: The Lord's correction will come via his last days servant (and those who are called to labor with him) who will of course be authorized by him. Whether this servant will come from within or without the church leadership remains to be seen. I believe you are way off base here. "For unto you, the Twelve, and those, the First Presidency, who are appointed with you to be your counselors and your leaders, is the power of this priesthood given, for the last days and for the last time, in the which is the dispensation of the fulness of times" (Doctrine and Covenants 112:30) 18 hours ago, LDS Watchman said: I don't appreciate your petty insult in which you suggest that I claim to be the one to correct the church and pass judgment upon it. Very lame and immature. I'm sorry you saw that as an insult, it was definitely not intended as such. But as you recall I asked this as a question: "Would't you agree?" The logic I laid out is simple: "The Lord’s correction will come from his own mouth to his authorized leaders in the church, and not from some guy in the pew". Apparently you agree with me that it should not come from some guy in the pew, but you do think it may come from outside the church ("Whether this servant will come from within or without the church leadership remains to be seen."), and that is where I have concern. 18 hours ago, LDS Watchman said: I have made no such claim. All I have done is share some scriptures and observations. I have made no claim to having any authority to correct anything or pronounce judgment on anyone. Perhaps not "judgment", but you definitely have questioned some of the changes made in the church by the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve. And that is where I have a problem with your approach. Edited January 5, 2021 by InCognitus 3
LDS Watchman Posted January 6, 2021 Author Posted January 6, 2021 18 hours ago, InCognitus said: I'm just trying to determine to what degree you believe the "church" has strayed from the ordinances and "broken the everlasting covenant", and what you mean by "church". When you say "church" it includes the leadership. If you mean (as I said in my post) that a certain percentage of the membership has strayed, then that's a different issue altogether. Elsewhere you have expressed concerns over "changes to the ordinances of the temple" and other changes in the church generally. Where do you think those changes come from if not from the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve? If the changes are from the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve, then aren't you really saying that this is caused by the "leadership of the church as a whole"? I'm just trying to connect the dots and understand where you are going with your viewpoint. Which particular members I believe these verses in section 1 are referring to is really not all that important. The point is that members of the church are being referred to. What matters is which members the Lord is referring to. Not what you or I think. Yes I have expressed concerns over changes to the temple ordinances and many other changes in the church, which of course have been approved by the first presidency. So what? When it comes to these changes there are only a couple of possibilities. One is that God approved of each and every change. Another is that God tolerated the changes. Another is that God is displeased with the changes. There really aren't any other possibilities. The default position of the church is that any and all changes came by revelation from God and cannot possibly ever be an error. It is supposed that it is impossible for the prophet to lead the members astray and therefore all any member has to do is follow the prophet and they are good to go. The scriptures do not support this false belief however. Right there in section one the Lord says that the leading authorities of the church could and would err, and that their errors would be made manifest. (see vs 25) So while I understand that it's considered taboo in the church to question anything the brethren do, in reality there's nothing wrong with thinking for ourselves, studying things out in the scriptures, and judging right from wrong for ourselves. And I do believe that many of the changes are not good. Either the Lord allowed them because of the unbelief and blindness of the members or the brethren have blind spots and have erred along with the members. I have good reason to suspect that both the brethren and the members are erring. I can quote you many scriptures why I believe this, but I'll save that for another time. 18 hours ago, InCognitus said: I agree, that it doesn't mean "all is well" collectively at all times, but what it DOES indicate is that the Lord has a means in place to correct it: A prophet and quorum of the twelve apostles, through which organization he can make the corrections himself. I agree that the Lord has a means and a place to correct corruption in the church. The first presidency and quorum of the 12 have a duty to be watchmen on the tower and receive revelation for the church. So they should absolutely be the ones through whom the Lord should make corrections through revelation. In fact it is there express calling as prophets, seers, and revelators to receive such revelation. But what were to happen if they collectively fell into error? You assume that this is impossible, but what if it isn't? 18 hours ago, InCognitus said: As you pointed out, there were times when the Lord was not pleased with what was going on. So what did he do? He gave a revelation to the prophet to correct it. And what's keeping the Lord from sending back Joseph Smith, John the Beloved, or some other prophet appointed by him to set the Lord's house in order if it has fallen into error? A prophet is a prophet. No man or set of men are infallible, including the brethren. If they need correction, the Lord can do it by any means he chooses. 18 hours ago, InCognitus said: And that is the process outlined in Section 1 of the D&C None of the verses you quoted say that the Lord can only correct the church through the first presidency and quorum of the twelve. Those verses show that the Lord's servants' errors would be made known, that when they sincerely sought wisdom they would be instructed, that when they sinned they would be chastened that they might repent, and that in as much as they were humble they might receive knowledge from time to time. 19 hours ago, InCognitus said: I was not in any way implying that the "mighty and strong" of verse 19 was referring to the "mighty and strong" of D&C 85. It certainly appeared that way based on the context of the rest of your comments and since you had changed "mighty and strong ones" to "might and strong." 19 hours ago, InCognitus said: I view D&C 1:19 in the exact same way that Paul spoke to the saints at Corinth: "But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty" (1 Corinthians 1:27). Thanks for clearing this up, this is also how I understand this verse. 19 hours ago, InCognitus said: But I think you are taking the "one mighty and strong" from D&C 85 way out of context. Have you read the statement from the First Presidency of the church about the "one mighty and strong" from D&C 85, as published in the Improvement Era, Volume 10, October 1907, pp. 929-943? I'm putting that prophecy in the context of many other prophecies about a coming last days servant who will prepare the way for the Lord's return, but you are free to believe as you wish of course. I am familiar with this statement by the first presidency on the "one mighty and strong." I hadn't read it in a while, though. In my opinion this statement is contradictory and problematic. I understand why they made it, though. All of these false claimants were causing quite the stir and it was important to discredit these imposters by any means necessary. 19 hours ago, InCognitus said: And if there is stumbling, the Lord will make the correction through the Prophet, the First Presidency, and the Quorum of the Twelve apostles. This is your opinion, but the scriptures do not say that this must be the case. In fact the many scriptures which speak of this correction suggest that the prophet who will make this correction will not be from among the current church leadership. 19 hours ago, InCognitus said: I believe you are way off base here. "For unto you, the Twelve, and those, the First Presidency, who are appointed with you to be your counselors and your leaders, is the power of this priesthood given, for the last days and for the last time, in the which is the dispensation of the fulness of times" (Doctrine and Covenants 112:30) In light of the many other scriptures about the last days, I don't believe that this verse means what you think it means. The priesthood was restored to Joseph Smith and others to lay the foundation for the dispensation of the fulness of times, which is the last dispensation. The Lord also warned on multiple occasions that the church could collectively stumble and even be rejected by him. These were not empty warnings. It was and is possible for the church to collectively go astray. There was never any guarantee made by the Lord that it was impossible for the church to go astray. I know this is a heresy in the modern church, but this was understood plainly in the early days of the church. I can provide these references if you would like. 19 hours ago, InCognitus said: you do think it may come from outside the church ("Whether this servant will come from within or without the church leadership remains to be seen."), and that is where I have concern. I understand your concern. My suggestion is very uncomfortable to you and goes against your sincerely held beliefs. I understand why that would make you a little defensive. 19 hours ago, InCognitus said: Perhaps not "judgment", but you definitely have questioned some of the changes made in the church by the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve. And that is where I have a problem with your approach. Like I said, I get it. I'm asking some uncomfortable questions, and this has put you on the defensive. Here's the thing though. It doesn't matter what either of us believe if our beliefs are not in harmony with the word of God in the scriptures. I was once like you. Someone started asking me these tough questions about the state of the church and my first reaction was to get defensive and cry foul. But eventually I decided to do a little research and discovered that there is a serious problem in the church today. I have spent countless hours studying the scriptures looking for an answer to what is going on in the church today. What I have found has been very troubling to me. I know without a doubt that something is seriously wrong. The Lord has plainly manifested this to me by the power of the Holy Ghost. But even though I know something is seriously wrong, I still love the church. I'm still an active member. I serve in the church, pay my tithing, and am raising my family in the church. I do this because in spite of the fact that I am sure we are in big trouble as a church, there's simply no where else to go. This is still the Lord's church and where the keys are. Unless the Lord tells me otherwise, I will continue to stay with the church, doing what good I can. But I also refuse to put my head in a whole and pretend that all is well, when I know it is not. There's really no reason for you or anyone else to get defensive. The truth ought to be our goal, even if the truth turns out to be painful.
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