Ahab Posted December 17, 2020 Posted December 17, 2020 11 minutes ago, JAHS said: I have video proof that it actually happened. Try this one which is based on reality
JAHS Posted December 17, 2020 Posted December 17, 2020 11 minutes ago, Ahab said: Try this one which is based on reality That's the breaking up of Pangea and not the flood. Actually if all the ice melted there would not be much change in the land masses of the world.
Teancum Posted December 17, 2020 Posted December 17, 2020 3 hours ago, rongo said: That one is faith for me. I don't think the rates of plate/tectonic movement are constant through history, though. Joseph Smith said that they will come back together, too, but for that to be discernible, it would have to exceed the 1 cm per year rate at some point. Faith in something demonstrably false. Faith is such a failure in so many things. It is what religion uses to keep people believing in spite of evidence or lack of it. Without it religion would die. Why is faith considered such a noble virtue?
Teancum Posted December 17, 2020 Posted December 17, 2020 3 hours ago, AtlanticMike said: A promised land by Jeffrey R Holland, 1976. He seems pretty smart to me He certainly was not smart on this topic. His faith was why he said this. His intellect was not.
JAHS Posted December 17, 2020 Posted December 17, 2020 2 minutes ago, Teancum said: Faith in something demonstrably false. Faith is such a failure in so many things. It is what religion uses to keep people believing in spite of evidence or lack of it. Without it religion would die. Why is faith considered such a noble virtue? Well of course if there were no faith there would be no religion; only science. It certainly takes a lot of courage to have faith in something. Courage is a noble virtue. Faith can also encourage hope in something. Hoping for something and not giving up on that hope is noble.
Teancum Posted December 17, 2020 Posted December 17, 2020 2 hours ago, LDS Watchman said: You gave me way too much to respond to, so I won't bother going through each point one by one. What it boils down to is that the only reason any believer would doubt that the flood literally happened as described in the scriptures, is because secular science tells them it's ridiculous. There literally is no other reason to doubt it. To answer your question about the flood covering the mountains, including Everest, my conclusion is that these high mountain ranges came up at the end of the flood when the water receded or sometime afterwards, likely when the continents were divided in the days of Peleg. But secular science provides verifiable evidence. Faith on scriptures written by those who allegedly spoke for God has no verifiable evidence other than "Trust me. Have faith. God told me but not you and you need to believe me." Faith is a horrible way to determine truth.
Teancum Posted December 17, 2020 Posted December 17, 2020 1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said: You are a black or white all or nothing kinda guy, eh? I don't believe in a global flood. I also don't believe in the Book of Mormon. Hmmm, maybe you are on to something Seriously, though. Rejecting a global flood does not in anyway affect my belief in, devotion to, and worship of Our Lord. Also, the Catholic Church does not require belief in a global flood (nor does she prohibit it). In fact, Pope Pius XII said that the first eleven chapters of Genesis can be viewed as containing metaphorical language that convey truths necessary for our salvation. St. Augustine in 389 argued that Genesis can be interpreted as an allegory. So, if rejecting a global flood leads to the rejection of Jesus Christ, then how is it that Catholic Church still preaches Christ crucified? Perhaps you should rethink your all-or-nothing slippery-slope stance. Ah well. It seems you have your own unique mental gymnastics just like Mormons do in order to maintain belief.
MiserereNobis Posted December 17, 2020 Posted December 17, 2020 2 minutes ago, Teancum said: Ah well. It seems you have your own unique mental gymnastics just like Mormons do in order to maintain belief. I have a feeling that you would say that to any believer of any religion. 3
pogi Posted December 18, 2020 Posted December 18, 2020 12 minutes ago, Teancum said: Faith in something demonstrably false. Faith is such a failure in so many things. It is what religion uses to keep people believing in spite of evidence or lack of it. Without it religion would die. Why is faith considered such a noble virtue? It is true that there are false faiths, but that doesn't make faith false. True faith in God is noble because it is simultaneously humbling and empowering. Faith is indeed "the principle of action in all intelligent beings". 2
The Nehor Posted December 18, 2020 Posted December 18, 2020 1 hour ago, LDS Watchman said: I never said or even implied that people "cannot" do one thing without doing another. I said that I believe there is zero benefit to doubting in the literal flood and that I believe doing so is a taken a step towards losing one's faith. The flood story is a bit more significant than some random census number, so this is not an apples to apples comparison. Rejecting either as true does not mean you are about to reject the reality of Jesus Christ, but you are one step closer to this in my opinion. No one is suggesting that the bible is error free. However, Joseph Smith believed in the literal flood. When he revised the bible he left the story in tact as historical fact. The Book of Mormon he brought forth also presents the flood story as literal. Actually the Book of Moses stops before the flood story so Joseph was done with his major revisions.
LDS Watchman Posted December 18, 2020 Author Posted December 18, 2020 3 hours ago, smac97 said: "Secular science" would also tell us that turning water to wine, raising Lazarus and Jairus' daugher from the dead, multiplying the loaves and fishes, Christ's resurrection, and so on are impossible or ridiculous, and yet we believe these things. Some people who deny the reality of the flood believe in these other miracles, but many reject these, too. 3 hours ago, smac97 said: what are your thoughts about Elder Widtsoe's remarks? I think Elder Widstoe did the church a disservice with this comment. I'm actually not really a fan of his for a number of reasons. I'm firmly in Joseph Fielding Smith's camp on issues such as the flood and evolution.
LDS Watchman Posted December 18, 2020 Author Posted December 18, 2020 12 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Actually the Book of Moses stops before the flood story so Joseph was done with his major revisions Not true. What we LDS call the Book of Moses is really just a small excerpt from the RLDS Inspired Version of Genesis. Joseph Smith made many additional changes to the book of Genesis. Some are in our foot notes, but many or not.
Teancum Posted December 18, 2020 Posted December 18, 2020 1 hour ago, LDS Watchman said: In addition to rejecting the flood story as real, you also expressed doubts about the Book of Mormon having actually happened as well as the reality of a literal Jesus who lived 2000 years ago. This proves that rejecting the flood story as a myth at least has the potential to lead to rejecting other teachings of the scriptures and the church as myths. So I see. You are afraid to challenge your literalism because it may cause you to reject other things that you think are true. Well ok. I get it. I used to be that way. But hey do you still believe in Santa Clause? If not why? Religious claims are no different than any other claims. You should challenge and question everything. It is a big risk to do so. But real and honest seekers of truth will do so even at the risk that their life long cherished beliefs may be lies and nonsense.
LDS Watchman Posted December 18, 2020 Author Posted December 18, 2020 43 minutes ago, Teancum said: But secular science provides verifiable evidence. Faith on scriptures written by those who allegedly spoke for God has no verifiable evidence other than "Trust me. Have faith. God told me but not you and you need to believe me." Faith is a horrible way to determine truth. It appears that you don't know how exercising faith actually works. Faith is not blindly trusting in the words of men who claimed they spoke to God. Faith is a principle of action, which can be tested and can grow into a perfect knowledge. But unless one is willing to plant the seed of faith and nourish it, one will never know. 1
Teancum Posted December 18, 2020 Posted December 18, 2020 56 minutes ago, JAHS said: Well of course if there were no faith there would be no religion; only science. It certainly takes a lot of courage to have faith in something. Courage is a noble virtue. Faith can also encourage hope in something. Hoping for something and not giving up on that hope is noble. I disagree. Faith is not courageous at all. It is timid. It is childish. It is weak. It is ignorng free and critical thinking. It is relying on a belief in something that someone else tells you some God is telling them. It is a controlling mechanism. Courage is rejecting challenging everything even if it destroys you indoctrinated faith. That is courage because it can unravel your world.
Teancum Posted December 18, 2020 Posted December 18, 2020 42 minutes ago, pogi said: It is true that there are false faiths, but that doesn't make faith false. True faith in God is noble because it is simultaneously humbling and empowering. Faith is indeed "the principle of action in all intelligent beings". No it is not. It is a barrier to finding truth for intelligent beings.
LDS Watchman Posted December 18, 2020 Author Posted December 18, 2020 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Teancum said: So I see. You are afraid to challenge your literalism because it may cause you to reject other things that you think are true. Well ok. I get it. I used to be that way. But hey do you still believe in Santa Clause? If not why? Religious claims are no different than any other claims. You should challenge and question everything. It is a big risk to do so. But real and honest seekers of truth will do so even at the risk that their life long cherished beliefs may be lies and nonsense. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. You don't know what I have and haven't questioned or studied out. Just because you found belief to be irrational, doesn't mean that those of us who do believe are a bunch of blind sheep who have our heads in a hole. I have a testimony given to me of the Holy Ghost that the scriptures and original teachings of Mormonism are true. I also have lots of tangible evidence for why I believe what I believe. Edited December 18, 2020 by LDS Watchman
Teancum Posted December 18, 2020 Posted December 18, 2020 5 minutes ago, LDS Watchman said: It appears that you don't know how exercising faith actually works. Faith is not blindly trusting in the words of men who claimed they spoke to God. Faith is a principle of action, which can be tested and can grow into a perfect knowledge. But unless one is willing to plant the seed of faith and nourish it, one will never know. I was a full blown active participating believing LDS person for most of my life. So don't presume I don't know about how religion teaches about faith, etc.
Ahab Posted December 18, 2020 Posted December 18, 2020 2 minutes ago, LDS Watchman said: It appears that you don't know how exercising faith actually works. Faith is not blindly trusting in the words of men who claimed they spoke to God. Faith is a principle of action, which can be tested and can grow into a perfect knowledge. But unless one is willing to plant the seed of faith and nourish it, one will never know. ... including never knowing they could have known. Gaining knowledge through the exercise of faith fills some people with trepidation. They would actually freak out if God actually told them something and all they had to do was to believe God. Some people's minds just don't accept that idea very well as the best way for them to learn something. 1
LDS Watchman Posted December 18, 2020 Author Posted December 18, 2020 Just now, Teancum said: I was a full blown active participating believing LDS person for most of my life. So don't presume I don't know about how religion teaches about faith, etc. Well it appears that you forgot how faith works or never really learned it to begin with, because your description of it is dead wrong.
Teancum Posted December 18, 2020 Posted December 18, 2020 1 minute ago, LDS Watchman said: You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. You don't know what I have and haven't questioned or studied out. Just because you found belief to be irrational, doesn't mean the those of us who do believe are a bunch of blind sheep who have our heads in a whole. I have a testimony given to me of the Holy Ghost that the scriptures and original teachings of Mormonism are true. I also have lots of tangible evidence for why I believe what I believe. Really? What tangible evidence do you have about a literal global flood, that all humans on earth today are a result of a few people 4000 years ago, that the BoM people literally existed in the Americas and so on... I have total ideas about what I am talking about. I have been where you are but you have not been where I am. Are you willing to challenge every belief you hold to be true no matter the cost? If not don't tell me I have no idea what I am talking about.
Ahab Posted December 18, 2020 Posted December 18, 2020 1 minute ago, Teancum said: I was a full blown active participating believing LDS person for most of my life. So don't presume I don't know about how religion teaches about faith, etc. Sure, I believe that. You believed God until you stopped believing in God and what you thought God told you. So now you don't believe God because you stopped believing him and in him. That's the way it usually works. You are a classic example of a former believer. 1
The Nehor Posted December 18, 2020 Posted December 18, 2020 17 minutes ago, LDS Watchman said: Not true. What we LDS call the Book of Moses is really just a small excerpt from the RLDS Inspired Version of Genesis. Joseph Smith made many additional changes to the book of Genesis. Some are in our foot notes, but many or not. Nowhere were the changes as comprehensive as very early in Genesis and nowhere else did Joseph add whole stories to the Bible like he did with the Enoch portions.
LDS Watchman Posted December 18, 2020 Author Posted December 18, 2020 59 minutes ago, Teancum said: But secular science provides verifiable evidence. Faith on scriptures written by those who allegedly spoke for God has no verifiable evidence other than "Trust me. Have faith. God told me but not you and you need to believe me." Faith is a horrible way to determine truth. I would also like to point out here that secular science requires a certain degree of blind faith from it's believers. For example, the big bang theory and macro evolution as the origin of earth and the life upon it has more holes in it than swiss cheese, yet those who put secular science above what the word of God says cling to those bogus theories because that's what the almighty science textbook tells them.
Ahab Posted December 18, 2020 Posted December 18, 2020 2 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Nowhere were the changes as comprehensive as very early in Genesis and nowhere else did Joseph add whole stories to the Bible like he did with the Enoch portions. If only Joseph had not been MURDERED IN COLD BLOOD !!!,,, As it is we only have what he did write, without other details he could have shared with us if he had not been MURDERED IN COLD BLOOD !!!
Recommended Posts