nuclearfuels Posted October 1, 2020 Posted October 1, 2020 3 Nephi 18: 35 And now I go unto the Father, because it is expedient that I should go unto the Father afor your sakes. Questions: 1. I always framed our Advocate w/ the Father advocating for me at the time of the Final Judgement. Did He leave the BoM peoples to advocate w/ the Father for them during their mortal lives? That would be comforting to know, if He's doing that for me and you and all of us, today, tomorrow and every day leading up to the final judgement. 2. I know the Savior had other important duties to perform and so His departure makes sense. How did the Savior leaving the BoM peoples help them grow by faith? Though since they all had knowledge (not faith) and witnessed the Resurrected Savior, how would they have faith or grow by faith since they had knowledge (not faith)? (Yes; their faith preceded the miracle of what they saw) Footnote: 1 Jn. 2:1; 2 Ne. 2:9; Moro. 7:28 (27–28); D&C 29:5. 1 John 2:1 New Testament 1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 Nephi 2:9 Book of Mormon 9 Wherefore, he is the firstfruits unto God, inasmuch as he shall make intercession for all the children of men; and they that believe in him shall be saved. Moroni 7:27–28 Book of Mormon 27 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, have miracles ceased because Christ hath ascended into heaven, and hath sat down on the right hand of God, to claim of the Father his rights of mercy which he hath upon the children of men? 28 For he hath answered the ends of the law, and he claimeth all those who have faith in him; and they who have faith in him will cleave unto every good thing; wherefore he advocateth the cause of the children of men; and he dwelleth eternally in the heavens. Doctrine and Covenants 29:5 Doctrine and Covenants 5 Lift up your hearts and be glad, for I am in your midst, and am your advocate with the Father; and it is his good will to give you the kingdom.
CV75 Posted October 1, 2020 Posted October 1, 2020 1 hour ago, nuclearfuels said: 3 Nephi 18: 35 And now I go unto the Father, because it is expedient that I should go unto the Father afor your sakes. Questions: 1. I always framed our Advocate w/ the Father advocating for me at the time of the Final Judgement. Did He leave the BoM peoples to advocate w/ the Father for them during their mortal lives? That would be comforting to know, if He's doing that for me and you and all of us, today, tomorrow and every day leading up to the final judgement. 2. I know the Savior had other important duties to perform and so His departure makes sense. How did the Savior leaving the BoM peoples help them grow by faith? Though since they all had knowledge (not faith) and witnessed the Resurrected Savior, how would they have faith or grow by faith since they had knowledge (not faith)? (Yes; their faith preceded the miracle of what they saw) Perhaps you might also frame the advocacy as ongoing, since this is how we have grace, space for repentance, and relief in any number of situations and circumstances. Jesus’ relationship and regular contact with the Father (and by extension, His bodily absence from the saints) is necessary for rendering these benefits. His departure and absence, His promise to return, and what the saints should do in the meantime (see Chapter 19) are faith-building processes for them. 1
Ahab Posted October 1, 2020 Posted October 1, 2020 !. Yes 2. By what faith is and does. Faith from God is his assurance that something is what it is, or in other words that something is true. So by him giving us faith or his assurance of something we can know or be reassured that we are on the right track. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted October 1, 2020 Posted October 1, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, nuclearfuels said: 3 Nephi 18: 35 And now I go unto the Father, because it is expedient that I should go unto the Father afor your sakes. Questions: 1. I always framed our Advocate w/ the Father advocating for me at the time of the Final Judgement. Did He leave the BoM peoples to advocate w/ the Father for them during their mortal lives? That would be comforting to know, if He's doing that for me and you and all of us, today, tomorrow and every day leading up to the final judgement. 2. I know the Savior had other important duties to perform and so His departure makes sense. How did the Savior leaving the BoM peoples help them grow by faith? Though since they all had knowledge (not faith) and witnessed the Resurrected Savior, how would they have faith or grow by faith since they had knowledge (not faith)? (Yes; their faith preceded the miracle of what they saw)............................. When Jesus leaves, he is replaced by the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete. The New Testament parakletos “advocate, intercessor, counselor, comforter, supporter, sponsor; Doppelgänger, alter ego, successor” (only in Johannine texts), ends up as a loanword in Aramaic paraqlytaʼ, which is targumic for Hebrew meli “interpreter, mediator, helper” in Job 33:23 (in parallel there with “angel, messenger”).[1] In John 14:16, for example, the "Second Comforter" is the Holy Ghost, who is often called the “Paraclete” in non-Mormon circles. But what is a paraclete? The phrase in Greek ('allon parakleton) is translated in various ways, and it can be confusing: John 14:16 "I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter" (KJV); "Segond Consolateur" (German Luther Bible revised); "another Counselor" (RSV, NIV); "another Advocate" (JB, NRSV, SV); "another Helper" (TEV); "another to be your Advocate" (NEB, REB); "another Paraclete" (NAB, see note: "Jesus is the first Paraclete" in I John 2:1). In other words, Jesus is the "first counselor," and the Holy Spirit is the "second counselor."[2] If Jesus Christ is the Advocate and Defender before the Father (1 John 2:1), then Satan/Diabolos is the “Accuser, Adversary, Opponent" (Job 1:6-12, Psalm 109:6, Zechariah 3:1-2, 1 Chronicles 21:1; Wisdom of Solomon 2:24; Luke 10:18, Revelation 12:9-10, 20:2; 1QHodayot frags 4:6, 14:3, 1QSb 1:8; Apocryphon of James 4:30,37,39),[3] both in that Law Court on High. It is a required cosmic ritual and legal function which must take place under the eternal Law of Opposites. [1] John Ashton, “Paraclete,” in D. Freedman, ed., Anchor Bible Dictionary, V:152-153. [2] R N. Whybray, The Heavenly Counsellor in Isaiah xl 13-14 (Cambridge Univ, 1971). [2] Peggy Lynne Day, An Adversary in Heaven: Satan in the Hebrew Bible, Harvard Semitic Monographs (Scholars Press, 1988); R. S. Kluger, Satan in the Old Testament, trans. H. Nagel (Northwestern Univ., 1967). Edited October 1, 2020 by Robert F. Smith 1
CV75 Posted October 1, 2020 Posted October 1, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said: When Jesus leaves, he is replaced by the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete. The New Testament parakletos “advocate, intercessor, counselor, comforter, supporter, sponsor; Doppelgänger, alter ego, successor” (only in Johannine texts), ends up as a loanword in Aramaic paraqlytaʼ, which is targumic for Hebrew meli “interpreter, mediator, helper” in Job 33:23 (in parallel there with “angel, messenger”).[1] In John 14:16, for example, the "Second Comforter" is the Holy Ghost, who is often called the “Paraclete” in non-Mormon circles. But what is a paraclete? The phrase in Greek ('allon parakleton) is translated in various ways, and it can be confusing: John 14:16 "I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter" (KJV); "Segond Consolateur" (German Luther Bible revised); "another Counselor" (RSV, NIV); "another Advocate" (JB, NRSV, SV); "another Helper" (TEV); "another to be your Advocate" (NEB, REB); "another Paraclete" (NAB, see note: "Jesus is the first Paraclete" in I John 2:1). In other words, Jesus is the "first counselor," and the Holy Spirit is the "second counselor."[2] If Jesus Christ is the Advocate and Defender before the Father (1 John 2:1), then Satan/Diabolos is the “Accuser, Adversary, Opponent" (Job 1:6-12, Psalm 109:6, Zechariah 3:1-2, 1 Chronicles 21:1; Wisdom of Solomon 2:24; Luke 10:18, Revelation 12:9-10, 20:2; 1QHodayot frags 4:6, 14:3, 1QSb 1:8; Apocryphon of James 4:30,37,39),[3] both in that Law Court on High. It is a required cosmic ritual and legal function which must take place under the eternal Law of Opposites. [1] John Ashton, “Paraclete,” in D. Freedman, ed., Anchor Bible Dictionary, V:152-153. [2] R N. Whybray, The Heavenly Counsellor in Isaiah xl 13-14 (Cambridge Univ, 1971). [2] Peggy Lynne Day, An Adversary in Heaven: Satan in the Hebrew Bible, Harvard Semitic Monographs (Scholars Press, 1988); R. S. Kluger, Satan in the Old Testament, trans. H. Nagel (Northwestern Univ., 1967). After the twelve were baptized and received the Holy Ghost on the second day of His visitation, they were encircled by the Holy Ghost and then Jesus came and ministered to them at the same time (3 Nephi 19:9-15) -- two Paracletes ministering at once! After that, the twelve baptized other Nephites who were also filled with the Holy Ghost by their ministration (3 Nephi 26:15-17; Moroni 2), and they continued to baptize and confirm thereafter (4 Nephi 1:1). Perhaps many of these were “rebaptisms.” I find it interesting that He administered the sacrament to the people (Chapter 18) before the baptisms of the twelve with water and fire in Chapter 19; and again in Chapter 20 before the baptisms and confirmations of the others in Chapter 26. Other instances of the Lord separating Himself from them for their sakes: 3 Nephi 18:19-23, after which He returned to them (verses 24-26); after which He turned from them again (verses 27-29), and returned again; and so continued to go back and forth again (verses 30-35). Edited October 1, 2020 by CV75 1
nuclearfuels Posted October 1, 2020 Author Posted October 1, 2020 2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: When Jesus leaves, he is replaced by the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete. The New Testament parakletos “advocate, intercessor, counselor, comforter, supporter, sponsor; Doppelgänger, alter ego, successor” (only in Johannine texts), ends up as a loanword in Aramaic paraqlytaʼ, which is targumic for Hebrew meli “interpreter, mediator, helper” in Job 33:23 (in parallel there with “angel, messenger”).[1] In John 14:16, for example, the "Second Comforter" is the Holy Ghost, who is often called the “Paraclete” in non-Mormon circles. But what is a paraclete? The phrase in Greek ('allon parakleton) is translated in various ways, and it can be confusing: John 14:16 "I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter" (KJV); "Segond Consolateur" (German Luther Bible revised); "another Counselor" (RSV, NIV); "another Advocate" (JB, NRSV, SV); "another Helper" (TEV); "another to be your Advocate" (NEB, REB); "another Paraclete" (NAB, see note: "Jesus is the first Paraclete" in I John 2:1). In other words, Jesus is the "first counselor," and the Holy Spirit is the "second counselor."[2] If Jesus Christ is the Advocate and Defender before the Father (1 John 2:1), then Satan/Diabolos is the “Accuser, Adversary, Opponent" (Job 1:6-12, Psalm 109:6, Zechariah 3:1-2, 1 Chronicles 21:1; Wisdom of Solomon 2:24; Luke 10:18, Revelation 12:9-10, 20:2; 1QHodayot frags 4:6, 14:3, 1QSb 1:8; Apocryphon of James 4:30,37,39),[3] both in that Law Court on High. It is a required cosmic ritual and legal function which must take place under the eternal Law of Opposites. [1] John Ashton, “Paraclete,” in D. Freedman, ed., Anchor Bible Dictionary, V:152-153. [2] R N. Whybray, The Heavenly Counsellor in Isaiah xl 13-14 (Cambridge Univ, 1971). [2] Peggy Lynne Day, An Adversary in Heaven: Satan in the Hebrew Bible, Harvard Semitic Monographs (Scholars Press, 1988); R. S. Kluger, Satan in the Old Testament, trans. H. Nagel (Northwestern Univ., 1967). Reading your responses is like reading Nibley. Thank you for taking the time 1
Robert F. Smith Posted October 2, 2020 Posted October 2, 2020 4 hours ago, CV75 said: After the twelve were baptized and received the Holy Ghost on the second day of His visitation, they were encircled by the Holy Ghost and then Jesus came and ministered to them at the same time (3 Nephi 19:9-15) -- two Paracletes ministering at once! After that, the twelve baptized other Nephites who were also filled with the Holy Ghost by their ministration (3 Nephi 26:15-17; Moroni 2), and they continued to baptize and confirm thereafter (4 Nephi 1:1). Perhaps many of these were “rebaptisms.” I find it interesting that He administered the sacrament to the people (Chapter 18) before the baptisms of the twelve with water and fire in Chapter 19; and again in Chapter 20 before the baptisms and confirmations of the others in Chapter 26. Other instances of the Lord separating Himself from them for their sakes: 3 Nephi 18:19-23, after which He returned to them (verses 24-26); after which He turned from them again (verses 27-29), and returned again; and so continued to go back and forth again (verses 30-35). Some of that may be attributable to the chiastic structures of III Nephi
teddyaware Posted October 2, 2020 Posted October 2, 2020 (edited) On 10/1/2020 at 9:26 AM, nuclearfuels said: 3 Nephi 18: 35 And now I go unto the Father, because it is expedient that I should go unto the Father afor your sakes. Questions: 1. I always framed our Advocate w/ the Father advocating for me at the time of the Final Judgement. Did He leave the BoM peoples to advocate w/ the Father for them during their mortal lives? That would be comforting to know, if He's doing that for me and you and all of us, today, tomorrow and every day leading up to the final judgement. 2. I know the Savior had other important duties to perform and so His departure makes sense. How did the Savior leaving the BoM peoples help them grow by faith? Though since they all had knowledge (not faith) and witnessed the Resurrected Savior, how would they have faith or grow by faith since they had knowledge (not faith)? (Yes; their faith preceded the miracle of what they saw) Footnote: 1 Jn. 2:1; 2 Ne. 2:9; Moro. 7:28 (27–28); D&C 29:5. 1 John 2:1 New Testament 1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 Nephi 2:9 Book of Mormon 9 Wherefore, he is the firstfruits unto God, inasmuch as he shall make intercession for all the children of men; and they that believe in him shall be saved. Moroni 7:27–28 Book of Mormon 27 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, have miracles ceased because Christ hath ascended into heaven, and hath sat down on the right hand of God, to claim of the Father his rights of mercy which he hath upon the children of men? 28 For he hath answered the ends of the law, and he claimeth all those who have faith in him; and they who have faith in him will cleave unto every good thing; wherefore he advocateth the cause of the children of men; and he dwelleth eternally in the heavens. Doctrine and Covenants 29:5 Doctrine and Covenants 5 Lift up your hearts and be glad, for I am in your midst, and am your advocate with the Father; and it is his good will to give you the kingdom. I think you may be reading too much into this declaration by the Savior. To me, it seems likely the Lord is simply teaching his disciples in ancient America the very same principle he taught to his apostles in the Holy Land when he instructed them at the last supper, just prior to his atoning sacrifice and death. It appears the Lord had to first physically leave his apostles and return to the presence Father before the apostles could receive the greater outpouring of light, knowledge, power and testimony that he promised them through the ministry Holy Ghost. For some reason, it appears that if the Lord had remained with his apostles they would have been denied the great blessing of being ministered to by the Holy Ghost. This is very likely the reason why it was EXPEDIENT (note that it’s likely not coincidental that the word ‘expedient’ is used in both John 16 and 3 Nephi 18) for the Lord to physically leave the presence of both his apostles in the Holy Land and his disciples in ancient America. 5 But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou? 6 But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart. 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is EXPEDIENT for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. (John 16) Edited October 2, 2020 by teddyaware 1
CV75 Posted October 2, 2020 Posted October 2, 2020 (edited) 13 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Some of that may be attributable to the chiastic structures of III Nephi Yes, especially since the ancient Hebrew concept of time and story/account-telling probably wasn't exactly linear, maybe with some exceptions for the Nephites' date-keeping. But as life and existence themselves are chiastic in a way, perhaps so is time. I find "and it came to pass" is often used in a non-linear as well as non-specific fashion. For example, in Helaman 3:19, 21, and 37 "and it came to pass" had nothing to do with the order of events, otherwise Nephi would have been only about 5 years old when he began to reign and 14 when he began to preach (4:18, 5:1), give or take a few years (born the 48th year, began to reign the 53rd year; gave up the seat in the 62nd year). However, some prophecies were quite specific as to chronological timing, so I do think that particular attention was given to the "reckoning of time" (3 Nephi per 8: 1-3) in the accounting of the Lord's visit, elements of which were orchestrated in a chiasmus style. Edited October 2, 2020 by CV75 3
CV75 Posted October 2, 2020 Posted October 2, 2020 (edited) 14 hours ago, teddyaware said: I think you may be reading too much into this declaration by the Savior. To me, it seems likely the Lord is simply teaching his disciples in ancient America the very same principle he taught to his apostles in the Holy Land when he instructed them at the last supper, just prior to his atoning sacrifice and death. It appears the Lord had to first physically leave his apostles and return to the presence Father before the apostles could receive the greater outpouring of light, knowledge, power and testimony that he promised them through the ministry Holy Ghost. For some reason, it appears that if the Lord had remained with his apostles they would have been denied the great blessing of being ministered to by the Holy Ghost. This is very likely the reason why it was EXPEDIENT (note that it’s likely not coincidental that the word ‘expedient’ is used in both John 16 and 3 Nephi 18) for the Lord to physically leave the presence of both his apostles in the Holy Land and his disciples in ancient America. 5 But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou? 6 But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart. 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is EXPEDIENT for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. (John 16) When a master goes away, he delegates authority to others, typically his servants, to carry on (there are several parables about this). I cannot say whether the Holy Ghost is Jesus' servant or fellow servant, but He did begin to operate fully (as in the Gift in addition to the power) among the saints after Jesus went away. Peter only experienced the power of the Holy Ghost in Jesus' presence, and the Nephite twelve had not yet exercised the power to give the Holy Ghost when Jesus and the Holy Ghost co-ministered to them; only after that (they got the power in 3 Nephi 18:37 and began using it in 26:15-17, after Jesus came and went a number of times and both Jesus and the Holy Ghost had manifest Their power individually and jointly among the Nephites). The Nephite "Pentecost" in Chapter 19 among those twelve disciples had Jesus with them, and for all we know He (and also angels, as with the Nephite twelve) was with the Twelve in Jerusalem the year before that, but no one in Jerusalem bore record of it (or the record was incomplete or redacted). Edited October 2, 2020 by CV75 2
teddyaware Posted October 2, 2020 Posted October 2, 2020 5 hours ago, CV75 said: When a master goes away, he delegates authority to others, typically his servants, to carry on (there are several parables about this). I cannot say whether the Holy Ghost is Jesus' servant or fellow servant, but He did begin to operate fully (as in the Gift in addition to the power) among the saints after Jesus went away. Peter only experienced the power of the Holy Ghost in Jesus' presence, and the Nephite twelve had not yet exercised the power to give the Holy Ghost when Jesus and the Holy Ghost co-ministered to them; only after that (they got the power in 3 Nephi 18:37 and began using it in 26:15-17, after Jesus came and went a number of times and both Jesus and the Holy Ghost had manifest Their power individually and jointly among the Nephites). The Nephite "Pentecost" in Chapter 19 among those twelve disciples had Jesus with them, and for all we know He (and also angels, as with the Nephite twelve) was with the Twelve in Jerusalem the year before that, but no one in Jerusalem bore record of it (or the record was incomplete or redacted). It’s obvious that the Nephites enjoyed a great outpouring of the Spirit during the resurrected Saviour’s ministry among them. I’m also quite sure that when we receive the full account of the Saviour’s forty-day post-resurrection mInistry among his disciples in the Holy Land that we will learn they experienced a similarly powerful and dramatic outpouring of the Spirit. In fact, the main reason why there is no account the important things that transpired during the forty-day ministry is because the strong gospel meat that was given by the Lord to the Holy Land Church is, no doubt, too deep and sacred for present-day consumption. The fact that the leaders of the Holy Land Church were able to receive very strong gospel meat at that time is evidence that they were as greatly enlightened and empowered as were the Nephites. So that puts the Nephite Church of Christ and the Holy Land Church of Christ in precisely the same situation. After the Saviour’s post-resurrection ministry among both churches, it was expedient that he ascend into heaven and physically leave their presence that they might enjoy the companionship of the Holy Ghost in such a manner that they would enabled to guide the respective Church’s without having the Lord be personally present. 1
CV75 Posted October 3, 2020 Posted October 3, 2020 1 hour ago, teddyaware said: It’s obvious that the Nephites enjoyed a great outpouring of the Spirit during the resurrected Saviour’s ministry among them. I’m also quite sure that when we receive the full account of the Saviour’s forty-day post-resurrection mInistry among his disciples in the Holy Land that we will learn they experienced a similarly powerful and dramatic outpouring of the Spirit. In fact, the main reason why there is no account the important things that transpired during the forty-day ministry is because the strong gospel meat that was given by the Lord to the Holy Land Church is, no doubt, too deep and sacred for present-day consumption. The fact that the leaders of the Holy Land Church were able to receive very strong gospel meat at that time is evidence that they were as greatly enlightened and empowered as were the Nephites. So that puts the Nephite Church of Christ and the Holy Land Church of Christ in precisely the same situation. After the Saviour’s post-resurrection ministry among both churches, it was expedient that he ascend into heaven and physically leave their presence that they might enjoy the companionship of the Holy Ghost in such a manner that they would enabled to guide the respective Church’s without having the Lord be personally present. Which is most efficient for the Lord and most effective for the progress of those He saved (just a few eye-witnesses bring in many, many more blessed hearers of the Word). 2
Garden Girl Posted October 3, 2020 Posted October 3, 2020 This is my personal experience with Jesus as my Advocate... For 35 years, I was inactive in the Church... during those years the Spirit would tug at me from time to time and I always suppressed it and kept rocking along in my wonderful albeit inactive life... I was blessed temporally, in so many ways. Finally circumstances were such, including the sudden death of my mom... that sent me running back to the Church. (Even though inactive, I never really lost my testimony). I told my non-LDS husband I was really feeling the need to return to Church, and he encouraged me. So in 1995 I walked into the Lincoln City, OR ward chapel and my reactivation began. On my own I started all over again at square one... reading, studying, praying deeply, repenting... one early morning as I was studying the scriptures in the quiet house... I became concerned to know if my repentance had been acceptable. As I prayed, I pleaded to know if it was... on that quiet morning, I was filled with a feeling of deep encompassing peace, and I heard the still, small voice... "Jesus was your advocate." Fast forward about ten years... I'm an ordinance worker in the temple... many times I found myself alone in the Celestial Room between sessions. Because they have numerous copies of the scriptures sitting around for people, I enjoyed picking up a copy when alone. I would pray and say, "Father, is there something thou would have me know..." And I'd let the scriptures fall open and begin reading at that point. One day. as I waited for the next session to come through, my heart was sooo heavy because of conditions in the world... the first Iraq war was raging, society seemed in chaos, etc. So I let the scriptures fall open... and my eye went to the top of the page... which happened to be D&C Section 45:3... Imagine my surprise and gratitude as I read: "Listen to him who is the advocate with the Father who is pleading your cause before him---" I continued to read the section, which told of the last days and how chaotic it would be with wars and rumors of wars, and the whole earth shall be in commotion, and men's hearts shall fail them... and iniquity shall abound... But my disciples shall stand in holy places, and shall not be moved..." What a wonderful answer to my prayer... so specific and immediate... I felt humble and encouraged. I can remember that like it was yesterday even though over ten years ago... GG 3
nuclearfuels Posted October 11, 2020 Author Posted October 11, 2020 On 10/1/2020 at 2:11 PM, Robert F. Smith said: Doppelgänger I'm not sure I get this synonym. He's a doppleganger of the Father but of us also?
Robert F. Smith Posted October 11, 2020 Posted October 11, 2020 1 hour ago, nuclearfuels said: I'm not sure I get this synonym. He's a doppleganger of the Father but of us also? That is merely one of a number of translations of Paraclete in Greek. Read John Ashton, “Paraclete,” in D. Freedman, ed., Anchor Bible Dictionary, V:152-153. Not sure how the Holy Spirit is a doppelganger of us also. Did you see someone suggesting that?
gav Posted October 11, 2020 Posted October 11, 2020 On 10/1/2020 at 3:26 PM, nuclearfuels said: 3 Nephi 18: 35 And now I go unto the Father, because it is expedient that I should go unto the Father afor your sakes. Greater light = greater condemnation. We undergo testing and trial outside of the direct presence of God for this reason. Hence Adam and eve were driven out of the garden of eden.
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