The Nehor Posted July 20, 2020 Posted July 20, 2020 Fear and Shaming is not "the way" but it is "a way". 1
Islander Posted July 20, 2020 Posted July 20, 2020 2 hours ago, stemelbow said: I liked Reis' article. Although I will add, I don't know how you religion without fear and shame--at least religion such as Mormonism. I like the ideas shared, but when it comes down to it, it's all based on fear and shame it seems to me. It is not. Millions of people ignore our appeal or outright reject the Restored Gospel. They are not afraid to do so. I have come to know that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and His redeeming blood is the only way to save my sinful soul from the wrath of God. He died for me because He loved me. And He has poured His love into my heart so I can see those around me as He sees then. And I love Him with all my soul, heart, mind and strength and have dedicated my life to do His work and His will. That perhaps, I may be the instrument in His hands to bring a few onto salvation. I have no fear. 2
JAHS Posted July 20, 2020 Author Posted July 20, 2020 29 minutes ago, Islander said: That's my point, friend. Jesus has very strong words of warning and even doom for unbelievers and doubters in general. But, His demeanor and treatment for those close to Him was different. We must be extremely careful how we treat others, what we say and how we say it. We are NOT the mouthpiece of the Lord. We are to walk humbly before Him, carrying each other's burdens in love. We are all sinners. One sin is no different than another before the Lord. Is the Bishop the mouthpiece of the Lord for his congregation? Am I the mouthpiece for the Lord for my children?
The Nehor Posted July 20, 2020 Posted July 20, 2020 22 minutes ago, Islander said: It is not. Millions of people ignore our appeal or outright reject the Restored Gospel. They are not afraid to do so. I have come to know that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and His redeeming blood is the only way to save my sinful soul from the wrath of God. He died for me because He loved me. And He has poured His love into my heart so I can see those around me as He sees then. And I love Him with all my soul, heart, mind and strength and have dedicated my life to do His work and His will. That perhaps, I may be the instrument in His hands to bring a few onto salvation. I have no fear. Please have charity on those of us who have not yet come to that perfect love that casts out all fear. 1
Ahab Posted July 20, 2020 Posted July 20, 2020 (edited) i don't think it is possible to instill fear or shame into someone else. When someone tries it just comes across as being bossy or pathetically whining. Fear and shame are feelings and nobody can cause someone else to feel a feeling by using mere words. When people get a feeling from someone else it is only because they can empathize with how that person is feeling, otherwise they can only feel their own feelings, so fear and shame can only be felt in that context. If you don't feel that you have anything to fear or be ashamed of, for example, somebody else isn't going to make you feel afraid or ashamed of whatever they think you should be afraid or ashamed of. You're just going to take their words as what they think and how they feel while you think and feel that you do not agree with them, although you still might empathize with their feelings. Edited July 20, 2020 by Ahab
The Nehor Posted July 20, 2020 Posted July 20, 2020 1 minute ago, Ahab said: i don't think it is possible to instill fear or shame into someone else. When someone tries it just comes across as being bossy or pathetically whining. Fear and shame are feelings and nobody can cause someone else to feel a feeling by using mere words. Wrong. Or as the title text for that comic goes: "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can make me think I deserved it." 1
CV75 Posted July 20, 2020 Posted July 20, 2020 Hey Dummy, move that brick you call a head out of the frame before we throw you out!
Ahab Posted July 20, 2020 Posted July 20, 2020 1 minute ago, The Nehor said: Wrong. Or as the title text for that comic goes: "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can make me think I deserved it." No, someone else's words may cause you to think THEY THINK you deserve what THEY THINK you deserve, but we are always free to disagree with how someone else thinks or feels.
The Nehor Posted July 20, 2020 Posted July 20, 2020 Just now, Ahab said: No, someone else's words may cause you to think THEY THINK you deserve what THEY THINK you deserve, but we are always free to disagree with how someone else thinks or feels. You heard it here first folks! Verbal abuse is a myth! We can just not believe what others say! Who knew? 3
Ahab Posted July 20, 2020 Posted July 20, 2020 Just now, The Nehor said: You heard it here first folks! Verbal abuse is a myth! We can just not believe what others say! Who knew? When people are so insecure that they will feel whatever someone else says they should think or feel, what they need is more self-confidence, and I think only God can help them learn how to get more of that. Otherwise they're still just feeling and thinking however someone else thinks they should feel or think. A mere puppet of whoever is pulling their strings.
Islander Posted July 20, 2020 Posted July 20, 2020 53 minutes ago, JAHS said: Is the Bishop the mouthpiece of the Lord for his congregation? Am I the mouthpiece for the Lord for my children? Absolutely. But, I would still caution in how to approach reproving when it comes to family and friends. Again, I take my queues from the Savior and how He dealt with the failures and shortcomings of His friends.
Islander Posted July 20, 2020 Posted July 20, 2020 51 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Please have charity on those of us who have not yet come to that perfect love that casts out all fear. Seek after it with real intent and you will find it, my friend.
The Nehor Posted July 20, 2020 Posted July 20, 2020 13 minutes ago, Ahab said: When people are so insecure that they will feel whatever someone else says they should think or feel, what they need is more self-confidence, and I think only God can help them learn how to get more of that. Otherwise they're still just feeling and thinking however someone else thinks they should feel or think. A mere puppet of whoever is pulling their strings. I will go tell all the abused children I have known that were told their whole lives that they are worthless and will never amount to anything that they are just puppets on strings. I am sure that will sort out the problem. Self-confidence is not an exclusively godly attribute. Many moral monsters have it. It is a good attribute to have when moderated by better attributes (faith, submission to God, charity, etc) and it can be cultivated outside of divine help. 3
The Nehor Posted July 20, 2020 Posted July 20, 2020 6 minutes ago, Islander said: Seek after it with real intent and you will find it, my friend. Maybe, my iron rod appears to take a long and circuitous route before getting to the tree of life. Or maybe my brain is too broken to get there in this life and I will only ever be on the journey until I die and then I can get there.
CV75 Posted July 20, 2020 Posted July 20, 2020 1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said: I thought it was all about love. I am afraid and ashamed...can someone get me out of here? 1
Islander Posted July 20, 2020 Posted July 20, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, The Nehor said: Maybe, my iron rod appears to take a long and circuitous route before getting to the tree of life. Or maybe my brain is too broken to get there in this life and I will only ever be on the journey until I die and then I can get there. Hope lords over despair, my friend. The grace of God is sufficient to get you thru the trials of mortality. Shed all doubt, shame, fear, pride and anguish over the past and trust in Him who is mighty to save. Nephi felt weighted down by his own sin. We all do. But he remembered in whom he had trusted. Our confidence is in Him. Our faith, our strength and testimony all come from Him. Then, forget the rest and hold on to Him, and He will see you through, no matter how many times you stumble. Just get up . Edited July 20, 2020 by Islander 2
Ahab Posted July 20, 2020 Posted July 20, 2020 1 minute ago, The Nehor said: I will go tell all the abused children I have known that were told their whole lives that they are worthless and will never amount to anything that they are just puppets on strings. I am sure that will sort out the problem. Better to tell them that they do not need to continue to think and feel like puppets of others who told them how they should think or feel about themselves. That God can help them to develop confidence in themselves. 1 minute ago, The Nehor said: Self-confidence is not an exclusively godly attribute. Many moral monsters have it. It is a good attribute to have when moderated by better attributes (faith, submission to God, charity, etc) and it can be cultivated outside of divine help. I am of the opinion that "moral monsters" do not have confidence in themselves, although they try to act like they do. I think they are insecure because of their unrighteous acts, which they know is bad behavior, even if they feel compelled to do those unrighteous things. God has told us that we have the sense within us to know good from evil, and I can sense that is a true statement. People who know that what they are doing is good know they do not need to be afraid or ashamed of anything they do that is good. Some people just lack confidence or an assured feeling that what they are doing is good, when it is, and pay too much attention to people who tell them that good things are bad, when they really are good.
The Nehor Posted July 20, 2020 Posted July 20, 2020 9 minutes ago, Islander said: Hope lords over despair, my friend. The grace of God is sufficient to get you thru the trials of mortality. Shed all doubt, shame, fear, pride and anguish over the past and trust in Him who is mighty to save. Nephi felt weighted down by his own sin. We all do. But he remembered in whom he had trusted. Our confidence is in Him. Our faith, our strength and testimony all come from Him. Then, forget the rest on hold on to Him and He will see you through, no matter how many times you stumble. Just get up . The weight is not (mostly) to do with sin. It is the tribulations of mortality. If I became sinless tomorrow my mortal weakness would (I suspect) still be enough to drag me down. I have hope but I have ended up shifting more and more of that hope to another life.
The Nehor Posted July 20, 2020 Posted July 20, 2020 9 minutes ago, Ahab said: I am of the opinion that "moral monsters" do not have confidence in themselves, although they try to act like they do. I think they are insecure because of their unrighteous acts, which they know is bad behavior, even if they feel compelled to do those unrighteous things. God has told us that we have the sense within us to know good from evil, and I can sense that is a true statement. People who know that what they are doing is good know they do not need to be afraid or ashamed of anything they do that is good. Some people just lack confidence or an assured feeling that what they are doing is good, when it is, and pay too much attention to people who tell them that good things are bad, when they really are good. Psychologically you are talking about people with high self-esteem but a lot of shame. It seems contradictory but it is not. When I was a kid I was told that bullies have low self-esteem which is why they bullied. That was a lie.
Ahab Posted July 20, 2020 Posted July 20, 2020 2 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Psychologically you are talking about people with high self-esteem but a lot of shame. It seems contradictory but it is not. When I was a kid I was told that bullies have low self-esteem which is why they bullied. That was a lie. I can accept that as a possibility. Maybe bullies have low self-esteem, maybe they don't. What I am sure of is that people do not need to and are never forced to think or feel how other people think they should think or feel. We all have agency and we can think however we want to think or feel, whether right or wrong, or good or bad.
The Nehor Posted July 20, 2020 Posted July 20, 2020 8 minutes ago, Ahab said: I can accept that as a possibility. Maybe bullies have low self-esteem, maybe they don't. What I am sure of is that people do not need to and are never forced to think or feel how other people think they should think or feel. We all have agency and we can think however we want to think or feel, whether right or wrong, or good or bad. So if the abused child had a strong enough will they would never have fallen into depression? It is their fault basically? 3
Ahab Posted July 20, 2020 Posted July 20, 2020 9 minutes ago, The Nehor said: So if the abused child had a strong enough will they would never have fallen into depression? It is their fault basically? Depression is a medical condition, and I don't totally understand it. I do understand why a person would feel "sad" to hear a bunch of abusive, negative, derogatory comments, though. Those are not nice things to think about.
JamesBYoung Posted July 20, 2020 Posted July 20, 2020 18 hours ago, JAHS said: I agree with your first part but the last sentence makes me wonder why it is OK for God to threaten and shame, but not us. Can we not use the scriptures that are inspired of God that sometimes uses fear or have we become so afraid of hurting others feelings that we have become less bold as we should be? The Proclamation on the Family uses fear and threats: "WE WARN that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God. Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets." I do agree that it depends on the individual situations that might direct us the things we do and say. JAHS, God can do it, you and I can't. There is a reason for that.
stemelbow Posted July 20, 2020 Posted July 20, 2020 2 hours ago, Ahab said: When people are so insecure that they will feel whatever someone else says they should think or feel, what they need is more self-confidence, and I think only God can help them learn how to get more of that. Otherwise they're still just feeling and thinking however someone else thinks they should feel or think. A mere puppet of whoever is pulling their strings. So it's others or God pulling our strings?
Islander Posted July 20, 2020 Posted July 20, 2020 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: The weight is not (mostly) to do with sin. It is the tribulations of mortality. If I became sinless tomorrow my mortal weakness would (I suspect) still be enough to drag me down. I have hope but I have ended up shifting more and more of that hope to another life. Got it. But tribulation is the norm. The Savior warned us that such would be our lot as His followers. But, stay the course, brother.
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