The Chosen

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

What I am having a problem with is the idea that there is only one way to "look and act like a Jew".  Or that there is some way to not "look and act like a Jew".  If you're saying a Jew would not have red hair, or purple hair, or look like a punk rocker, because no Jew ever has or ever will look like that, then I suppose I could go along with that idea, but as far as "normal" looks go I would say a Jew could look like any normal person albeit he or she would probably have dark hair.  So yes, I think we might be in agreement now.  It would not be hard to find actors to fit the bill, as far as looks go, and it would be even easier to find someone who acts like a Jew considering the fact that Jews do not all act the same way.

You wouldn't last a day in Hollywood as a casting director, Ahab.  Maybe you just haven't seen "Yentl" or "Fiddler on the Roof," etc., and so just don't realize any of what I am talking about.  I lived for four years in Israel among the Jews, and spent many more years among Jews in the USA -- regularly attending synagogue and Jewish events.  Many of my professors have been Jewish.  Perhaps all you know about Jews has been derived from reading Wikipedia and watching episodes of Seinfeld.  Pretty thin gruel on which to base conclusions, Ahab.

The OP here was about a series about Jesus called the Chosen.  You may have missed the fact that I complimented the series for authentic casting, with a guy playing Jesus who looks like a Jew (he is a Roman Catholic).  Other roles are played by non-Jews who look Jewish.  You appear to believe that it is all accidental, that anyone could be cast as a Jew.  That is nonsense, and that is why you would not last in Hollywood as a casting director.

[Robert F. Smith]

5 minutes ago, Ahab said:

No, it seems that you do not understand what I have been saying.  I think it's quite easy to cast someone as a Jew because there isn't just one type of person who "looks and acts like" a Jew.  Jews look and act like most people.

That misunderstanding is precisely my point:  You are blissfully ignorant of Jews and how the look and act.  That is why you would not be able to hold a job as a casting director.

[Ahab]

9 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

That misunderstanding is precisely my point:  You are blissfully ignorant of Jews and how the look and act.  That is why you would not be able to hold a job as a casting director.

please read this again while trying to understand this point.  https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/why-we-dont-need-jewish-actors-to-play-jewish-roles

[Islander]

2 hours ago, Ahab said:

No, it seems that you do not understand what I have been saying.  I think it's quite easy to cast someone as a Jew because there isn't just one type of person who "looks and acts like" a Jew.  Jews look and act like most people.

That is not actually factual. If you are making a Mexican movie about Mexican people in Mexico, it would a disaster if you use Salvadorians or Guatemalans in the cast. They are NOT Mexican, do not look, speak or act like Mexicans and everybody would see (especially the Mexicans in the audience and those that know something about Mexico) that the casting was a total blunder, rendering the film a misfit, to say the list. Now, is it possible to find a Guatemalan or Salvadorian that could pass as a Mexican? Sure. But that would be the exception rather than the rule to apply to casting. That is what Bob is saying and he is absolutely right.

I lived in Haifa for a few years and can attest to that. Although Arabs are about 20% of the population there, in the city center and commercial districts on Ben-Gurion Blvd, you can see both, Jews and Arabs mingling and working together. And, after a few months, I could tell them apart just by their mannerisms. They each do not act or look just like everybody else. 

Edited June 12, 2020 by Islander

[Amulek]

2 hours ago, Ahab said:

I think it's quite easy to cast someone as a Jew because there isn't just one type of person who "looks and acts like" a Jew.  Jews look and act like most people.

But they aren't talking about casing someone as "a Jew," they are talking about casting someone who looks like a Jew who was living in or around Jerusalem 2000+ years ago.

That's a very specific look; one that not just anyone today would be able to fit, even if they happen to be Jewish.

I mean, do you honestly think someone like Seth Green would be able to make the cut for such a role?

 

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, Ahab said:

please read this again while trying to understand this point.  https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/why-we-dont-need-jewish-actors-to-play-jewish-roles

I made the point repeatedly that good casting is to type:  They must look and act like Jews.  You deny that, perhaps preferring Arnold Friberg's Jews as Vikings.  If you look at the casting decisions made by Dallas Jenkins, the director of "The Chosen," you will see that he casts to type for the  main characters.  He himself would never fit a Jewish role:  He doesn't look or act like a Jew.  But he did cast people who could fill that bill, even though they are often not Jews.  Somehow you just don't get that.

[Ahab]

1 hour ago, Islander said:

That is not actually factual. If you are making a Mexican movie about Mexican people in Mexico, it would a disaster if you use Salvadorians or Guatemalans in the cast. They are NOT Mexican, do not look, speak or act like Mexicans and everybody would see (especially the Mexicans in the audience and those that know something about Mexico) that the casting was a total blunder, rendering the film a misfit, to say the list. Now, is it possible to find a Guatemalan or Salvadorian that could pass as a Mexican? Sure. But that would be the exception rather than the rule to apply to casting. That is what Bob is saying and he is absolutely right.

I was talking about Jews, specifically, and it doesn't seem as if you realize how much Jews have influenced what Mexicans look and act like. Lehi? Nephi? Laman and Lemuel? Do any of those names ring a bell for you?

1 hour ago, Islander said:

I lived in Haifa for a few years and can attest to that. Although Arabs are about 20% of the population there, in the city center and commercial districts on Ben-Gurion Blvd, you can see both, Jews and Arabs mingling and working together. And, after a few months, I could tell them apart just by their mannerisms. They each do not act or look just like everybody else. 

We were talking about people playing a role in a movie or TV show.  Actors.  Who supposedly would know how to act in the role they played.

I'd bet you dollars to donuts that most Arabs would know how to act like Jews if they wanted to, and most Jews would know how to act like Arabs, too.  In appearance they already look very similar.  

[Ahab]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I made the point repeatedly that good casting is to type:  They must look and act like Jews.  You deny that, perhaps preferring Arnold Friberg's Jews as Vikings.  If you look at the casting decisions made by Dallas Jenkins, the director of "The Chosen," you will see that he casts to type for the  main characters.  He himself would never fit a Jewish role:  He doesn't look or act like a Jew.  But he did cast people who could fill that bill, even though they are often not Jews.  Somehow you just don't get that.

When you say "they must look and act like Jews", I think you mean that if people are playing roles of some Jews who lived 2000 years ago, you think they must look and act like you think Jews looked and acted 2000 years ago.

Which in itself is not the same thing as saying they must look and act like Jews looked and acted 2000 years ago, in general, or how Jews look and act in more modern times.

And regardless of how much you think you know about how Jews looked and acted 2000 years ago, you have never seen one so you can't be 100% sure about what Jews looked like or how they acted 2000 years ago.

I'm basing my opinion on what I have seen from people in general.  I've seen that people do not look and act the same way even when they have common ancestors.  Big changes can occur within 2 or 3 generations.

And we're talking 2000 years ago now!  

Anyway, we don't have to agree on this.  We can believe whatever we want to believe.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Islander said:

That is not actually factual. If you are making a Mexican movie about Mexican people in Mexico, it would a disaster if you use Salvadorians or Guatemalans in the cast. They are NOT Mexican, do not look, speak or act like Mexicans and everybody would see (especially the Mexicans in the audience and those that know something about Mexico) that the casting was a total blunder, rendering the film a misfit, to say the list. Now, is it possible to find a Guatemalan or Salvadorian that could pass as a Mexican? Sure. But that would be the exception rather than the rule to apply to casting. That is what Bob is saying and he is absolutely right.

I lived in Haifa for a few years and can attest to that. Although Arabs are about 20% of the population there, in the city center and commercial districts on Ben-Gurion Blvd, you can see both, Jews and Arabs mingling and working together. And, after a few months, I could tell them apart just by their mannerisms. They each do not act or look just like everybody else. 

I have been watching a lot of Asian TV for the past 5 years and it bugs me now when I see Koreans playing Chinese or Japanese or the reverse. There are different mannerisms as well as typical facial structures, though certainly lots of overlapping.  Mannerisms of American Asians are just American. There are a few actors who were raised in the states and that is sometimes noticeable (more relaxed posture and such). I am getting very good at guessing what country someone is from...on film, not sure it would translate into real life where there is less stereotypical behaviour.  

Edited June 13, 2020 by Calm

[Islander]

3 hours ago, Ahab said:

I was talking about Jews, specifically, and it doesn't seem as if you realize how much Jews have influenced what Mexicans look and act like. Lehi? Nephi? Laman and Lemuel? Do any of those names ring a bell for you?

We were talking about people playing a role in a movie or TV show.  Actors.  Who supposedly would know how to act in the role they played.

I'd bet you dollars to donuts that most Arabs would know how to act like Jews if they wanted to, and most Jews would know how to act like Arabs, too.  In appearance they already look very similar.  

You just will not concede the point, no matter how persuasive the argument to the contrary. I am sorry, bot the ancestral vestiges of that migration may be barely detectable in DNA but nothing more. Very little remains, if any. My guess is that you do not know, personally, many Jewish people, from Israel, not American Jews. But I will rest the argument here. 

Anyone can play anything but to the observing eye it would not be genuine, which is the idea of type casting well. 

[Islander]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

I have been watching a lot of Asian TV for the past 5 years and it bugs me now when I see Koreans playing Chinese or Japanese or the reverse. There are different mannerisms as well as typical facial structures, though certainly lots of overlapping.  Mannerisms of American Asians are just American. There are a few actors who were raised in the states and that is sometimes noticeable (more relaxed posture and such). I am getting very good at guessing what country someone is from...on film, not sure it would translate into real life where there is less stereotypical behaviour.  

Prior to 1948 there were about 100,000 Jews living in what is today Israel proper. These were ancestral Jewish families, not European Jews. There were also a few thousand (15-20,000) in Lebanon that have been there since the 2nd Revolt 132-135 CE. We have pictures and we do know what they looked like. 

[mfbukowski]

8 hours ago, Ahab said:

please read this again while trying to understand this point.  https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/why-we-dont-need-jewish-actors-to-play-jewish-roles

So you finally agree with Bob

[Robert F. Smith]

18 hours ago, Ahab said:

When you say "they must look and act like Jews", I think you mean that if people are playing roles of some Jews who lived 2000 years ago, you think they must look and act like you think Jews looked and acted 2000 years ago.

Which in itself is not the same thing as saying they must look and act like Jews looked and acted 2000 years ago, in general, or how Jews look and act in more modern times.

And regardless of how much you think you know about how Jews looked and acted 2000 years ago, you have never seen one so you can't be 100% sure about what Jews looked like or how they acted 2000 years ago.

Science is not concerned with 100% certainty in belief or imagination, but rather on actual scientific evidence -- with which you are completely unfamiliar -- so you base your opinions on your imagination.  I answered a closely related question last year:  https://www.quora.com/Palestinians-who-have-roots-in-modern-day-Israel-since-ancient-times-have-Natufian-DNA-Is-this-true/answer/Bob-Smith-3106  

And also more recently, with illustrations:  https://www.quora.com/Why-do-some-people-argue-that-the-ancient-Israelites-were-black/answer/Bob-Smith-3106 

18 hours ago, Ahab said:

I'm basing my opinion on what I have seen from people in general.  I've seen that people do not look and act the same way even when they have common ancestors.  Big changes can occur within 2 or 3 generations.

When you say this, that is the prime reason why you haven't understood a thing I have said.  You clearly reject the science of genetics, upon how we look is completely dependent.

18 hours ago, Ahab said:

And we're talking 2000 years ago now!  

Anyway, we don't have to agree on this.  We can believe whatever we want to believe.

Your final sentence here says it all: "We can believe whatever we want to believe."  Again, proof positive that you could never cut it as a casting director.

The genetic facts are even astounding, as I point out here: https://www.quora.com/Which-is-the-oldest-organization-of-the-world/answer/Bob-Smith-3106   Genetic facts don't permit us to just invent it as we go. 

[Robert F. Smith]

17 hours ago, Calm said:

I have been watching a lot of Asian TV for the past 5 years and it bugs me now when I see Koreans playing Chinese or Japanese or the reverse. There are different mannerisms as well as typical facial structures, though certainly lots of overlapping.  Mannerisms of American Asians are just American. There are a few actors who were raised in the states and that is sometimes noticeable (more relaxed posture and such). I am getting very good at guessing what country someone is from...on film, not sure it would translate into real life where there is less stereotypical behaviour.  

I especially like Korean TV series and films, which do not mix backgrounds -- because it would be spotted immediately and disrespected by the Korean public.  However, when a couple of rich Koreans go on holiday in Japan, and actually use some of the Japanese they have learned (part of the Korean script), one can immediately see the difference.

[Ahab]

On 6/13/2020 at 11:27 AM, Robert F. Smith said:

Science is not concerned with 100% certainty in belief or imagination, but rather on actual scientific evidence -- with which you are completely unfamiliar -- so you base your opinions on your imagination.  I answered a closely related question last year:  https://www.quora.com/Palestinians-who-have-roots-in-modern-day-Israel-since-ancient-times-have-Natufian-DNA-Is-this-true/answer/Bob-Smith-3106  

And also more recently, with illustrations:  https://www.quora.com/Why-do-some-people-argue-that-the-ancient-Israelites-were-black/answer/Bob-Smith-3106 

When you say this, that is the prime reason why you haven't understood a thing I have said.  You clearly reject the science of genetics, upon how we look is completely dependent.

Your final sentence here says it all: "We can believe whatever we want to believe."  Again, proof positive that you could never cut it as a casting director.

The genetic facts are even astounding, as I point out here: https://www.quora.com/Which-is-the-oldest-organization-of-the-world/answer/Bob-Smith-3106   Genetic facts don't permit us to just invent it as we go. 

Scientific evidence actually corroborates my understanding of how things are, so the problem is not due to a lack of evidence but to how the evidence is interpreted.

And , again, my point is that there is not just one type of look or behavior that qualifies as Jewish, or Canaanite, or American, whatever.  That stereotypes do not tell the whole story. 

...that there are people in every culture or "race" who look and act differently than the stereotype for that culture or race.

I would think that would be obvious to people who understand that we all came from Adam and Eve.

[Robert F. Smith]

56 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Scientific evidence actually corroborates my understanding of how things are, so the problem is not due to a lack of evidence but to how the evidence is interpreted.

And , again, my point is that there is not just one type of look or behavior that qualifies as Jewish, or Canaanite, or American, whatever.  That stereotypes do not tell the whole story. 

...that there are people in every culture or "race" who look and act differently than the stereotype for that culture or race.

I would think that would be obvious to people who understand that we all came from Adam and Eve.

You clearly have a strong anti-scientific belief.  I understand that, and that is not so uncommon.  A lot of people share that belief.  However, as I have repeatedly pointed out, the casting director of a Jewish film is going to choose people who look and act Jewish, even though you have no conception of what that means.

In addition, the claim that we are all descended from Adam & Eve doesn't help in any way to explain the very great differences which I have pointed to as controlling the casting of various films.  For you there are no differences, so that you would be willing to cast Max Von Sydow as Ghengis Khan, or Omar Sharif as Brigham Young, or Bruce Lee as Dr Martin Luther King Jr, etc.  Right?  Or is there some reason why you think that they might not fit those roles?  It's called realism, Ahab.  Pretending something is so does not make it so.

[Ahab]

14 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You clearly have a strong anti-scientific belief.  I understand that, and that is not so uncommon.  A lot of people share that belief.  However, as I have repeatedly pointed out, the casting director of a Jewish film is going to choose people who look and act Jewish, even though you have no conception of what that means.

In addition, the claim that we are all descended from Adam & Eve doesn't help in any way to explain the very great differences which I have pointed to as controlling the casting of various films.  For you there are no differences, so that you would be willing to cast Max Von Sydow as Ghengis Khan, or Omar Sharif as Brigham Young, or Bruce Lee as Dr Martin Luther King Jr, etc.  Right?  Or is there some reason why you think that they might not fit those roles?  It's called realism, Ahab.  Pretending something is so does not make it so.

The only thing that is clear to me from our communications is that you are not correctly conveying what I understand.  I don't have any anti-scientific belief.  i simply do not agree with how some people interpret scientific evidence.

In the end, for you, I suppose it all depends on what you think a Jew... or any person of any culture... should look and act like.

[Rain]

On 6/11/2020 at 1:02 AM, Rivers said:

Has anybody here watched this? I just finished the season and it’s excellent.  It’s definitely a unique characterization of Jesus that I’m not used to but I loved it.    

 

Thank you! We watched the 2 episodes yesterday. I really liked how it made me see things I've never thought of before.  Things like Matthew being a tax collector and how that might make a difference in how the other apostles saw him.  Before, I knew he was one and that they weren't particularly liked, but I didn't even think about it possibly affecting the relationships.

On 6/11/2020 at 3:29 AM, Robert F. Smith said:

I watched the Pilot and then Episode 1 (which are not the same).  The Pilot made a lot of sense, whereas Episode 1 lost me -- couldn't make much sense of it.   I do like the casting.  At least the Jews look like Jews, which is usually not the case.

My daughter mentioned that without me saying anything. She liked how it was done and it reminded her of our short time in Israel.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

The only thing that is clear to me from our communications is that you are not correctly conveying what I understand.  I don't have any anti-scientific belief.  i simply do not agree with how some people interpret scientific evidence.

In the end, for you, I suppose it all depends on what you think a Jew... or any person of any culture... should look and act like.

You certainly have the freedom to reject realism, along with standard science.  No one can deny that to you -- at least not in a free country.  And you are not alone in that opposition to reality.

[Ahab]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You certainly have the freedom to reject realism, along with standard science.  No one can deny that to you -- at least not in a free country.  And you are not alone in that opposition to reality.

You're just being silly now, Robert. But I understand how that can be fun.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

You're just being silly now, Robert. But I understand how that can be fun.

I am quite serious.  Only a very small part of the population are realists -- those who take science, logic, and fact seriously.  I can see how that might seem odd to you, but I remain undeterred.

[Ahab]

16 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I am quite serious.  Only a very small part of the population are realists -- those who take science, logic, and fact seriously.  I can see how that might seem odd to you, but I remain undeterred.

No, silly by saying I am rejecting reality/realism/truth simply because I do not interpret scientific evidence as you do in regard to what Jews look and act like.  There isn't only one way to look and act.

Edited June 16, 2020 by Ahab

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, Ahab said:

No, silly by saying I am rejecting reality/realism/truth simply because I do not interpret scientific evidence as you do in regard to what Jews look and act like.  There isn't only one way to look and act.

Of course, and you will no doubt never abandon that erroneous perspective.  In fact, even when evidence shows that someone is wrong, that typically only strengthens their erroneous beliefs.

https://effectiviology.com/backfire-effect-facts-dont-change-minds/

[Ahab]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Of course, and you will no doubt never abandon that erroneous perspective.  In fact, even when evidence shows that someone is wrong, that typically only strengthens their erroneous beliefs.

https://effectiviology.com/backfire-effect-facts-dont-change-minds/

Check back with me after you see Jesus and the apostles he chose during his mortal ministry, and many other Jews who lived during that time. And Lehi and Nephi, too. And Judah and his Father, Israel, too.

I'm guessing they will either look and act like you think Jews look and act, based on what you think Jews look and act like, or they won't.  I'll then give you a cookie if I see that you are now right and I am wrong.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

Check back with me after you see Jesus and the apostles he chose during his mortal ministry, and many other Jews who lived during that time. And Lehi and Nephi, too. And Judah and his Father, Israel, too.

I'm guessing they will either look and act like you think Jews look and act, based on what you think Jews look and act like, or they won't.  I'll then give you a cookie if I see that you are now right and I am wrong.

Is that how you make judgments on all issues?  I think not. You are being very disingenuous, Ahab.