The Chosen

[strappinglad]

The one thing I like about Science is that it is consistent . 

Serious question Robert. Can you list a few ways that Jews act that are unique ? 

 

[Ahab]

On 6/16/2020 at 5:58 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

Is that how you make judgments on all issues?  I think not. You are being very disingenuous, Ahab. 

I don't know what else to tell you other than more of what I have already told you. My point is that there is more than one look for how a Jew looks and Jews don't all act the same way either. And I'm basing that statement on a random set of examples I have known or seen both before and after finding out that they are or were Jews.  So as far as I know, Jews who lived 2000 or 3000 or even only 1000 years ago may have looked and acted different than a Jew like Jerry Seinfeld today, or one of those other Jews I mentioned.  And I wouldn't be at all surprised if they looked and acted different, either.  On on the other hand, maybe some of them did look and very much act like some Jews look and act today.  But I still see no good reason to think there is any stereotype for how Jews look or act, generally, just as I don't see a good reason to think that all people from any cultural or ancestral background look and act the same way. Some of us look and act similarly, but some of us look and act differently. Or at least that is how I see things.  Genuinely.  I'm not trying to pull any wool over your face.

[Robert F. Smith]

On 6/16/2020 at 10:20 PM, strappinglad said:

The one thing I like about Science is that it is consistent . 

Population genetics is a science, and it is consistent.  When I talk about the specific meaning of genetic studies, I am quoting and citing the scientists who do that work.  See my comments on the most ancient organization in the world, and the genetic basis for that claim:  https://www.quora.com/Which-is-the-oldest-organization-of-the-world/answer/Bob-Smith-3106 .  Then ask yourself, What's not to like?

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Serious question Robert. Can you list a few ways that Jews act that are unique ?

Being a casting director is an art, not a science.  That casting director reads the script and tries to cast each role based on both appearance and behavior.  Often, even with professional actors (A list), auditions are held to see what the film director and others think.  Such decisions are crucial to the success of the film.  Thus, when Barbra Streisand and Robert Redford were cast as the leads in "The Way We Were," it was essential that Redford fit perfectly as a Caucasian white boy opposite the clearly Jewish Streisand from New York City.  Same as for her role as Fanny Brice in "Funny Girl."  She not only had to become Jewish Fanny Brice in speech and gestures, but she also had to be able to sing and dance on stage.  Luckily, Streisand was a natural in each area.  You would need to spend time among Jews to understand what I am saying.

New York Jews have a behavioral subculture of long standing.  Similarly for the New York Italians, Irish, and African Americans.  Each has distinct behavior patterns and mode of speech.  Distinctive regional patterns are quite common in America, including especially Cajuns from South Louisiana, Boston Southies, Hispanic gang culture in Los Angeles, etc.

People from outside those specific groups might be able to fit themselves to a particular role, but it can take great acting ability.  And the appearance must jibe.  I thought Anthony Quinn (a Mexican-American) did well as a Russian Cardinal who becomes Pope in "Shoes of the Fisherman," but his mafia roles not so much.  Cliff Curtis has successfully played Jesus ("Risen"), and a Hispanic gang leader in a TV series ("Gang Related"), even though he is a Maori.  Casting is an art, not a science.

Edited June 18, 2020 by Robert F. Smith

[Ahab]

12 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

... the clearly Jewish Streisand from New York City.  Same as for her role as Fanny Brice in "Funny Girl."  She not only had to become Jewish Fanny Brice in speech and gestures, but she also had to be able to sing and dance on stage.  Luckily, Streisand was a natural in each area.  You would need to spend time among Jews to understand what I am saying.

Do you concede that how Barbra Streisand looked and acted in her roles as a Jew, and in her regular life,  did not and still does not jibe with how all Jews look and act?  That she does not represent how all Jews look and act?  That all Jews do not look and act as she does?

 

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

I don't know what else to tell you other than more of what I have already told you. My point is that there is more than one look for how a Jew looks and Jews don't all act the same way either. And I'm basing that statement on a random set of examples I have known or seen both before and after finding out that they are or were Jews.  So as far as I know, Jews who lived 2000 or 3000 or even only 1000 years ago may have looked and acted different than a Jew like Jerry Seinfeld today, or one of those other Jews I mentioned.  And I wouldn't be at all surprised if they looked and acted different, either.  On on the other hand, maybe some of them did look and very much act like some Jews look and act today.  But I still see no good reason to think there is any stereotype for how Jews look or act, generally, just as I don't see a good reason to think that all people from any cultural or ancestral background look and act the same way. Some of us look and act similarly, but some of us look and act differently. Or at least that is how I see things.  Genuinely.  I'm not trying to pull any wool over your face.

It's pretty simple really, Ahab.  You made a statement, and I challenged your statement by asking whether you actually make all your decisions on that basis -- clearly not -- which is why I termed you disingenuous.  This was your statement:

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Check back with me after you see Jesus and the apostles he chose during his mortal ministry, and many other Jews who lived during that time. And Lehi and Nephi, too. And Judah and his Father, Israel, too.

I'm guessing they will either look and act like you think Jews look and act, based on what you think Jews look and act like, or they won't.  I'll then give you a cookie if I see that you are now right and I am wrong.

I don't believe that this is the way you make everyday decisions in your life, Ahab, and I doubt that anyone you know does either.  None of us (least of all a casting director) waits until the next life to decide whether they got it right.  They make daily decisions, just as you and I do every day, on the basis of available information.  If the information is deficient, they seek to supplement it, or find an expert.

Anthropology tells us what ancient people looked like, and genetics along with analysis of skeletal remains is of prime importance in that endeavor.  You automatically reject science because it doesn't jibe with your preconceptions, which is not an uncommon problem in dealing with reality.  Galileo had that problem with those who believed that the Earth was the center of the universe, and that the Sun orbited around the Earth.  His opponents rejected science outright.

Edited June 18, 2020 by Robert F. Smith

[Robert F. Smith]

1 minute ago, Ahab said:

Do you concede that how Barbra Streisand looked and acted in her roles as a Jew, and in her regular life,  did not and still does not jibe with how all Jews look and act?  That she does not represent how all Jews look and act?  That all Jews do not look and act as she does?

I guess you read none of my comments in this thread.  You are completely misstating what I said.  You might try quoting me, instead of attributing false claims to me.

[Ahab]

20 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

It's pretty simple really, Ahab.  You made a statement, and I challenged your statement by asking whether you actually make all your decisions on that basis -- clearly not -- which is why I termed you disingenuous.  This was your statement:

I said that because I don't know how those people looked and acted, and I don't think you do either, even though they were all Jews, so I think our best course of action is to wait until we see what they look and act like.

Based on what we can see now, we can see only that Jews do not all look and act the same way.  Time and place can make a lot of big differences.

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I don't believe that this is the way you make everyday decisions in your life, Ahab, and I doubt that anyone you know does either.  None of us (least of all a casting director) waits until the next life to decide whether they got it right.  They make daily decisions, just as you and I do every day, on the basis of available information.  If the information is deficient, they seek to supplement it, or find an expert.

But we can't see what those Jews looked like or how they acted.  Even Jews today, in these latter days, do not all look and act the same way. You mentioned Barbra Streisand in another post. She doesn't look and act like every other Jew on this planet.

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Anthropology tells us what ancient people looked like, and genetics along with analysis of skeletal remains is of prime importance in that endeavor.  You automatically reject science because it doesn't jibe with your preconceptions, which is not an uncommon problem in dealing with reality.  Galileo had that problem with those who believed that the Earth was the center of the universe, and that the Sun orbited around the Earth.  His opponents rejected science outright.

More silliness.  How one who lived long ago looked and acted doesn't equate to how all looked and acted back then, or  today.  Not all conclusions from scientists are scientifically valid and when they share their scientifically invalid opinions they can be as silly as the silliest people on this planet.

Edited June 18, 2020 by Ahab

[Ahab]

13 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I guess you read none of my comments in this thread.  You are completely misstating what I said.  You might try quoting me, instead of attributing false claims to me.

Try harder to understand me and then when I can see you are trying I may see that you understand what I have been saying.

[strappinglad]

The scriptures seem to suggest the Christ did not jump out as a completely different example of Jewishness. They called Him the son of the carpenter without sarcasm. He was able to blend into the crowd when pursued .  So He wasn't a blond blue-eyed 6 foot 5 Scandahoovian .

That said , half of His genes must have come from NOT Joseph. ( unless one thinks He only had 23 ) . What that did to His features we don't know. 

I concede that , having been raised in a devout Jewish family , He would have very much reflected the traits and mannerisms of His day and heritage. 

[Ahab]

55 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

The scriptures seem to suggest the Christ did not jump out as a completely different example of Jewishness.

When it is understood that there isn't only one way for a Jew to look or act, and there also isn't only one way for someone who lived at Jerusalem to look and act, it is easy to understand why it isn't always easy to see who is a Jew and who isn't. 

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/southern-and-jewish/funny-dont-look-jewish/
 

 

 

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, Ahab said:

I said that because I don't know how those people looked and acted, and I don't think you do either, even though they were all Jews, so I think our best course of action is to wait until we see what they look and act like.

Based on what we can see now, we can see only that Jews do not all look and act the same way.  Time and place can make a lot of big differences.

But we can't see what those Jews looked like or how they acted.  Even Jews today, in these latter days, do not all look and act the same way. You mentioned Barbra Streisand in another post. She doesn't look and act like every other Jew on this planet.

Here again, you misstate what I have repeatedly said.  If you had quoted me, instead of inventing something I did not say, a conversation would be possible.  Those who reject science and scholarship usually resort to falsifying what others say -- as you do here.  Probably a systemic problem for you.

3 hours ago, Ahab said:

More silliness.  How one who lived long ago looked and acted doesn't equate to how all looked and acted back then, or  today.  Not all conclusions from scientists are scientifically valid and when they share their scientifically invalid opinions they can be as silly as the silliest people on this planet.

You are equally anti-science as those who claimed that Galileo was wrong.  Instead of quoting him and perhaps looking through his telescope, they made fun of his serious scholarship.  Which is what those who reject science usually do.  To actually discuss what Galileo was saying would have been to come to grips with the evidence.  Those who are anti-science hate evidence and logic, so they resort to falsifying the claims made by the scientists. 

Another reason why you could never be a casting director in Hollywood:  You are opposed to common sense.

[Ahab]

1 minute ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Here again, you misstate what I have repeatedly said.  If you had quoted me, instead of inventing something I did not say, a conversation would be possible.  Those who reject science and scholarship usually resort to falsifying what others say -- as you do here.  Probably a systemic problem for you.

You are equally anti-science as those who claimed that Galileo was wrong.  Instead of quoting him and perhaps looking through his telescope, they made fun of his serious scholarship.  Which is what those who reject science usually do.  To actually discuss what Galileo was saying would have been to come to grips with the evidence.  Those who are anti-science hate evidence and logic, so they resort to falsifying the claims made by the scientists. 

Another reason why you could never be a casting director in Hollywood:  You are opposed to common sense.

I'm amazed that you continue to make general statements against me like this.  And that you still don't seem to understand the point I have been making.  I thought you were generally reasonable but I am now no longer under that impression.

I have been focused on trying to clarify the point I have been trying to get across to you.  If you don't see me making the same point you have been trying to share with me you could try to clarify it better for me.  To try to make sure that I understand what your point is.

I'm sure there are many casting directors who are capable of perpetuating the stereotype of what they think a Jew looks and acts like, perpetuating the idea that Jews look and act different than any other person from any other ancestors or culture. That was not my point.

 

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, Ahab said:

I'm amazed that you continue to make general statements against me like this.  And that you still don't seem to understand the point I have been making.  I thought you were generally reasonable but I am now no longer under that impression.

I have been focused on trying to clarify the point I have been trying to get across to you.  If you don't see me making the same point you have been trying to share with me you could try to clarify it better for me.  To try to make sure that I understand what your point is.

I'm sure there are many casting directors who are capable of perpetuating the stereotype of what they think a Jew looks and acts like, perpetuating the idea that Jews look and act different than any other person from any other ancestors or culture. That was not my point.

A simple solution to unconfuse yourself, Ahab, would be to simply quote what I said to you that you find somehow wrong, instead of making repeated false statements about what I said.  People generally don't appreciate false claims about  them or their statements.  If I am so wrong, it should be a simple matter for you to quote what I said and point to why it is wrong.  Instead you attribute to me claims which I have not made.  You say you are "amazed."  That to me is a perfect example of being disingenuous.  Being amazed is not an argument or a piece of logic.  It is an emotion.  So far, your points are based on emotion instead of fact.