Navidad Posted June 1, 2020 Posted June 1, 2020 On another thread it was noted that some things on the forum that are said seem to upset me. I was encouraged to start a new thread to discuss this. I can't help but make it a bit personal, since I can only talk about my lived experience. I hope the moderators will give me some slack. This discussion could be a learning opportunity for all of us. I trust 95% of those on this forum enough to open myself up to be the originator of this discussion even if it means I might be hurt or upset. There is long history with Mormonism of exclusion and persecution just as there has been in my Mennonite faith. We are both similar and dissimilar in that regard. I am willing to open myself up in this thread. In fact I would be glad to have the members of this forum understand me better and me understand you better after my almost three years on it. I won't whine or proselytize. I already believe you all are fully Christian and it really doesn't matter to me which branch you are on the vine. So here we go - in answer to a comment that was made about me getting upset when you all simply tell me what it is you believe . . . . . 1. I am trying to understand the doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. As a means to that end, I have attended an LDS ward for several years and I regularly read and sometimes post on this forum. I have an excellent rating! Ha! How about that? I have bought and devoured several hundred books by LDS leaders and thinkers from the 1840's on to the most current literature. Unless you are or have been a Mormon Studies professor at a university I will happily compare my personal LDS library to yours. I do not wish to belong to the LDS church. I am not struggling with that. I am not trying to be a citizen of two countries. I don't see our respective faiths as two countries. I see them more perhaps as two states within one country. I am actually quite content with my beliefs and with being first and foremost a Christian - fully and completely a Christian, secondly an Evangelical, third holding the specific and unique beliefs of Anabaptism as expressed in one particular Mennonite community. I do not believe that my faith group is the only anything. We are one branch under the vineship (I just made up that word) of Christ – as is the LDS church (a branch on the vine). My intent is also to understand better the historic animosity between LDS Christians and non-LDS Christians beginning in New York in 1830 and continuing to this day. I have come to learn it is quite mutual. I want to understand that tension better. Within my own little tiny sphere of influence, I would like to help make it better. I will most likely not succeed however because there are precious few on either side who really want it to be any better. The twin towers of certainty and persecution meet both groups' (LDS and non-LDS) identity needs. It is complex. I have no spirit-led desire or interest in assuming a new identity- that of LDS. My identity as a committed Christian, pleasing (for the most part) in God’s sight is enough for me. I hope that settles that issue. I am a student and a friend of the church. I advocate for you when surrounded by hostile and mostly misinformed non-LDS Christians. There are some within the LDS community who advocate for me when I am mocked by LDS Christians. I appreciate both. Through my quest to understand I have gained a core of knowledge that seems to be attractive to some in leadership in the church - especially about the LDS church in Mexico and about the LDS/Mormon fundamentalist origins and connections. I would love to hear your thoughts about the mutual tension that exists between the LDS Christian world and the non-LDS Christian world. Can it ever be better? Should it? Will compromises be necessary that very few want to make? What are the appendages (Joseph Smith) or the non-essentials that we shouldn't be fighting about? 2. I must admit I get upset when my LDS friends dwell on being "worthy" by virtue of their affiliation with a specific church within historic Christianity. Its ordinances, practices, unique and special nature enable members and only members to "be worthy" before Christ. I get upset about that because of my passionate belief that none of us are worthy. Nor will any of us ever be worthy to merit the atonement of Christ or a position in the celestial kingdom. That is why it is termed a gift. A gift that can never be merited. That is why the Bible is pretty clear that we are declared righteousness, even though we are not. That is God’s gift to us. I feel badly for the 95 year old lady in our ward who was in tears in our Gospel Doctrine class because she wasn't certain she would ever see the celestial kingdom, because that can only be hers based on her husband's worthiness and the quality of their relationship. It broke my heart. There was such silence in the room. Yes, that upset me. 3. I do get upset when folks on this forum speak to me in the transactional analysis paradigm of parent-child. There are those on the forum who regularly talk down to me. I also get upset when folks on this forum have used LDS slurs at me. These include “son of Cain,” “follower of Baal,” “anti-Mormon,” a pretender and one who plays make-believe. Yes, these epithets upset me. 4. Your sincerely held beliefs do not upset me, except when they exclude me. I must admit to that. I really do not understand why you collectively do not understand that. You collectively and individually certainly get upset when non-LDS Christians exclude you, don’t you? You collectively are in an awkward spot, as I am. You are on the edge of the inside with the broader Christian community. That is an uncomfortable place to be when your “edgeness” causes you to be excluded. So, it is with me. I am on the edge of the inside of the LDS church. That is my choice as is your edgeness as well. It is not comfortable when you are excluded. It is not comfortable when I am excluded. I hope we can see that we have that in common. With the doctrinal differences, how can we not be so exclusive? I cannot think of anything else that upsets me. Any thoughts or comments that might provide insight and lead towards a lessening of the tension?
Ahab Posted June 1, 2020 Posted June 1, 2020 Navidad, from my previous discussions with you I have come to the conclusion that you understand our beliefs and simply do not choose to accept them, preferring to believe what you believe even though some of your beliefs are contrary to some of our beliefs. And I don't think trying to teach you our beliefs more completely would cause you to change your beliefs, either, so I think it's probably best to just accept you for what you are to us. An outsider. Not one of us, and by that I mean not a member of what we believe is the only true church of Jesus Christ, which at this time is called The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I still like you, though, and I love you too. I think you are a very nice person. We just don't agree on some issues, but we can still be friends if you want to and you can visit us as much as you can. 3
Calm Posted June 1, 2020 Posted June 1, 2020 (edited) 6 hours ago, Navidad said: Your sincerely held beliefs do not upset me, except when they exclude me. I must admit to that. I really do not understand why you collectively do not understand that. You collectively and individually certainly get upset when non-LDS Christians exclude you, don’t you? You collectively are in an awkward spot, as I am. You are on the edge of the inside with the broader Christian community. T There is a difference between being on the edge, but still being in the greater vaguely defined Christian community and not having the membership requirements to be considered an official member of a subgroup of a community with well defined qualifications. I would never feel excluded by Catholics when I haven't undergone a Catholic baptism. I do not believe in all of the list of required beliefs of many evangelical groups, so how could I see myself as a member of those groups. I don't recall any Saint who felt bad about not being viewed by Catholics as a full Catholic, Lutheran or Baptist, etc. even if they had once been such. They understood they were not part of that faith community when they were trying to be part of the Saint community. Note: there was a board member here who was attempting to be a member of our church, the Catholic and another Luciferian group at the same time...but I think he qualifies as too much of an exception to be included in a summary of behaviour. There may be some groups who have created a new definition of Christian and I think if that is the way it is presented, most Saints would be fine with saying "I don't fit that definition", but then they might argue whether or not that group has the right to appropriate and insist on using a label that is better known for applying to a larger community. It is as if Texans decided to call themselves Americans and accepted all the states that had the same political and governmental approach that Texas does, but declared any other state nonAmerican. That contradicts what defines an American state and therefore these other excluded states would have a right to say 'Texas has no right to exclude us from being Americans'. Otoh, within the laws of the US, Texas does have the right to define who is a citizen of the state of Texas and it doesn't make much sense for someone who lives in California and doesn't meet those Texan requirements to feel excluded if Texans won't call him a Texan when visiting. I think it is fair for a person whose residence is in the US to have the right to be called American, especially if they actively work to contribute to the greater society even in a small way. But they still don't have the right to be called an American citizen because they haven't gone through the process that the US has defined to create its citizens. Now just as there may be arguments about if someone has the authorized birth certificate to be an American, there may be arguments about whether someone has an authorized baptism....but if the rules for the birth certificate or baptism are clearly defined, these arguments are generally easily dealt with. Someone may see them as unfair or unjust...perhaps they think the US should have open borders and accept any as a citizen as desires, but at this time it is accepted the US has the power to enforce its definition and most countries do the same, so arguing it is being weird for doing so just doesn't make sense. I see the argument of exclusion from membership in the Church along the same lines. This doesn't mean we as Saints should create artificial barriers or inflate the requirements that exist, we should not lack for compassion and accept to the fullest we are able, but just as we don't open the dedicated temples for all to enter to perform our sacred ceremonies within, so are there other exclusions that of necessity must take place (necessity because we believe it is commanded of God). Edited June 2, 2020 by Calm 2
teddyaware Posted June 1, 2020 Posted June 1, 2020 2 hours ago, Navidad said: On another thread it was noted that some things on the forum that are said seem to upset me. I was encouraged to start a new thread to discuss this. I can't help but make it a bit personal, since I can only talk about my lived experience. I hope the moderators will give me some slack. This discussion could be a learning opportunity for all of us. I trust 95% of those on this forum enough to open myself up to be the originator of this discussion even if it means I might be hurt or upset. There is long history with Mormonism of exclusion and persecution just as there has been in my Mennonite faith. We are both similar and dissimilar in that regard. I am willing to open myself up in this thread. In fact I would be glad to have the members of this forum understand me better and me understand you better after my almost three years on it. I won't whine or proselytize. I already believe you all are fully Christian and it really doesn't matter to me which branch you are on the vine. So here we go - in answer to a comment that was made about me getting upset when you all simply tell me what it is you believe . . . . . 1. I am trying to understand the doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. As a means to that end, I have attended an LDS ward for several years and I regularly read and sometimes post on this forum. I have an excellent rating! Ha! How about that? I have bought and devoured several hundred books by LDS leaders and thinkers from the 1840's on to the most current literature. Unless you are or have been a Mormon Studies professor at a university I will happily compare my personal LDS library to yours. I do not wish to belong to the LDS church. I am not struggling with that. I am not trying to be a citizen of two countries. I don't see our respective faiths as two countries. I see them more perhaps as two states within one country. I am actually quite content with my beliefs and with being first and foremost a Christian - fully and completely a Christian, secondly an Evangelical, third holding the specific and unique beliefs of Anabaptism as expressed in one particular Mennonite community. I do not believe that my faith group is the only anything. We are one branch under the vineship (I just made up that word) of Christ – as is the LDS church (a branch on the vine). My intent is also to understand better the historic animosity between LDS Christians and non-LDS Christians beginning in New York in 1830 and continuing to this day. I have come to learn it is quite mutual. I want to understand that tension better. Within my own little tiny sphere of influence, I would like to help make it better. I will most likely not succeed however because there are precious few on either side who really want it to be any better. The twin towers of certainty and persecution meet both groups' (LDS and non-LDS) identity needs. It is complex. I have no spirit-led desire or interest in assuming a new identity- that of LDS. My identity as a committed Christian, pleasing (for the most part) in God’s sight is enough for me. I hope that settles that issue. I am a student and a friend of the church. I advocate for you when surrounded by hostile and mostly misinformed non-LDS Christians. There are some within the LDS community who advocate for me when I am mocked by LDS Christians. I appreciate both. Through my quest to understand I have gained a core of knowledge that seems to be attractive to some in leadership in the church - especially about the LDS church in Mexico and about the LDS/Mormon fundamentalist origins and connections. I would love to hear your thoughts about the mutual tension that exists between the LDS Christian world and the non-LDS Christian world. Can it ever be better? Should it? Will compromises be necessary that very few want to make? What are the appendages (Joseph Smith) or the non-essentials that we shouldn't be fighting about? 2. I must admit I get upset when my LDS friends dwell on being "worthy" by virtue of their affiliation with a specific church within historic Christianity. Its ordinances, practices, unique and special nature enable members and only members to "be worthy" before Christ. I get upset about that because of my passionate belief that none of us are worthy. Nor will any of us ever be worthy to merit the atonement of Christ or a position in the celestial kingdom. That is why it is termed a gift. A gift that can never be merited. That is why the Bible is pretty clear that we are declared righteousness, even though we are not. That is God’s gift to us. I feel badly for the 95 year old lady in our ward who was in tears in our Gospel Doctrine class because she wasn't certain she would ever see the celestial kingdom, because that can only be hers based on her husband's worthiness and the quality of their relationship. It broke my heart. There was such silence in the room. Yes, that upset me. 3. I do get upset when folks on this forum speak to me in the transactional analysis paradigm of parent-child. There are those on the forum who regularly talk down to me. I also get upset when folks on this forum have used LDS slurs at me. These include “son of Cain,” “follower of Baal,” “anti-Mormon,” a pretender and one who plays make-believe. Yes, these epithets upset me. 4. Your sincerely held beliefs do not upset me, except when they exclude me. I must admit to that. I really do not understand why you collectively do not understand that. You collectively and individually certainly get upset when non-LDS Christians exclude you, don’t you? You collectively are in an awkward spot, as I am. You are on the edge of the inside with the broader Christian community. That is an uncomfortable place to be when your “edgeness” causes you to be excluded. So, it is with me. I am on the edge of the inside of the LDS church. That is my choice as is your edgeness as well. It is not comfortable when you are excluded. It is not comfortable when I am excluded. I hope we can see that we have that in common. With the doctrinal differences, how can we not be so exclusive? I cannot think of anything else that upsets me. Any thoughts or comments that might provide insight and lead towards a lessening of the tension? I’m pretty sure you must know by now that an unworthy husband isn’t going to prevent a worthy wife from obtaining the fulness of celestial glory. The leaders of the Church have consistently taught this for many years, so I’m wondering how this heartbroken older lady picked up such an erroneous idea? Did anyone correct her during the class? 1
Ahab Posted June 1, 2020 Posted June 1, 2020 33 minutes ago, teddyaware said: The leaders of the Church have consistently taught this for many years, so I’m wondering how this heartbroken older lady picked up such an erroneous idea? It happens when people don't hear or see or correctly understand good info that helps to correct false info. It's a regular thing here on this planet. Maybe someday she'll learn better. Maybe not. Those who continue to seek the truth will eventually find it. 33 minutes ago, teddyaware said: Did anyone correct her during the class? All we can do to teach others others is to share what is true and I don't think that equates to correcting others
Navidad Posted June 1, 2020 Author Posted June 1, 2020 1 hour ago, Calm said: There is a difference between being on the edge, but still being in the greater vaguely defined Christian community and not having the membership requirements to be considered an official member of a subgroup of a community with well defined qualifications. I would never feel excluded by Catholics when I haven't undergone a Catholic baptism. I do not believe in all of the list of required beliefs of many evangelical groups, so how could I see myself as a member of those groups. I don't recall any Saint who felt bad about not being viewed by Catholics as a full Catholic, Lutheran or Baptist, etc. even if they had once been such. They understood they were not part of that faith community when they were trying to be part of the Saint community. Note: there was a board member here who was attempting to be a member of our church, the Catholic and another Luciferian group at the same time...but I think he qualifies as too much of an exception to be included in a summary of behaviour. There may be some groups who have created a new definition of Christian and I think if that is the way it is presented, most Saints would be fine with saying "I don't fit that definition", but then they might argue whether or not that group has the right to appropriate and insist on using a label that is better known for applying to a larger community. It is as if Texans decided to call themselves Americans and accepted all the states that had the same political and governmental approach that Texas does, but declared any other state nonAmerican. That contradicts what defines an American state and therefore these other excluded states would have a right to say 'Texas has no right to exclude us from being Americans'. Otoh, within the laws of the US, Texas does have the right to define who is a citizen of the state of Texas and it doesn't make much sense for someone who lives in California and doesn't meet those Texan requirements to feel excluded if Texans won't call him a Texan when visiting. I think it is fair for a person whose residence is in the US to have the right to be called American, especially if they actively work to contribute to the greater society even in a small way. But they still don't have the right to be called an American citizen because they haven't gone through the process that the US has defined to create its citizens. Now just as there may be arguments about if someone has the authorized birth certificate to be an American, there may be arguments about whether someone has an authorized baptism....but if the rules for the birth certificate or baptism are clearly defined, these arguments are generally easily dealt with. Someone may see them as unfair or unjust...perhaps they think the US should have open borders and accept any as a citizen as desires, but at this time it is accepted the US has the power to enforce its definition and most countries do the same, so arguing it is being weird for doing so just doesn't make sense. I see the argument of exclusion from membership in the Church along the same lines. This doesn't mean we as Saints should create artificial barriers or inflate the requirements that exist, we should not lack for compassion and accept to the fullest we are able, but just as we don't open the dedicate temples for all to enter to perform our sacred ceremonies within, so are there other exclusions that of necessity must take place (necessity because we believe it is commanded of God). Hi Calm: Thanks for your post. This is why I believe this dialogue is important. I do believe you are misunderstanding my use of the word exclude and exclusion. You seem to believe that I feel excluded because my LDS friends don't accept me as a member of the church. That is not the case at all. In no way do I feel excluded from the LDS faith; I am not of the LDS faith, how could I feel excluded from that? It is very important to me that you understand that. You are absolutely correct in everything you said, if my sense of exclusion was from the LDS church. Of course I don't expect to be treated as a member. I am not a member. It is as simple as that. I apologize for not having been more clear about this. It is not like I live in California, upset because a Texan doesn't consider me a Texan. It is more like I don't live in Texas so a Texan doesn't consider me a US citizen or an American because I am not a Texan! That is a much more accurate example. My sense of exclusion from my LDS friends stems from a similar exclusion of LDS folks by some fundamentalist Christians. Lets suppose they are Nazarenes. They do not exclude members of the LDS church from being Nazarene. They exclude members of the LDS church from being fully and complete Christian. Just as you do me. That is a whole different ballgame so to speak. Now I know you will say you don't do that, but the practical implication of LDS exclusivity does exactly that. I am called brother in the ward - that isn't because I am a fellow Christian, complete and intact as I am. It is because I am a fellow embodied spirit child - a brother of Christ and everyone else on earth. If I were granted fellow Christian status by my LDS friends they wouldn't just "tolerate" my presence in the ward and in the sacrament service as someone said earlier today. They would welcome me as a fellow Christian, perhaps of a different denomination, but still a full fledged brother in Christ. That is what you deny me. I will never see the eternal life God has promised me as His part of our covenant unless I become LDS in this life or the next. You allow me to live in a lower kingdom and then call it a form of heaven. Anything less than the full presence of eternal life where I can serve, learn and worship at the foot of the Lamb is not heaven, paradise, or the celestial kingdom. You don't believe I have any priestly authority, even within the sanctuary of my own church! That is excluding me from even my own faith! A LDS Christian might say to me, "go ahead and perform your own ordinances" - but they are meaningless to God because you are not authorized LDS - isn't that exclusive? Worse yet President Kimball, when an apostle clearly wrote that by performing my own ordinances in my own church I am committing blasphemy! Is that not intrusive and exclusionary? I hope you have a better sense now of what and how I feel. The faithful LDS person walks (metaphorically) right into the Anglican sanctuary and declares "what happens here is not accepted by Christ" just as the fundy non-LDS Christian stands outside the Mesa Temple and yells "Repent!" LDS Christians are generally much more courteous than that, but the implication is the same - you must accept LDS ordinances in this life or the next! Become LDS or settle for eternal life absent the dwelling of the Father and the Son. Isn't that pretty much correct? If not, please tell me. I hope this helps. Thanks,
Ahab Posted June 1, 2020 Posted June 1, 2020 4 minutes ago, Navidad said: Hi Calm: Thanks for your post. This is why I believe this dialogue is important. I do believe you are misunderstanding my use of the word exclude and exclusion. You seem to believe that I feel excluded because my LDS friends don't accept me as a member of the church. That is not the case at all. In no way do I feel excluded from the LDS faith; I am not of the LDS faith, how could I feel excluded from that? It is very important to me that you understand that. You are absolutely correct in everything you said, if my sense of exclusion was from the LDS church. Of course I don't expect to be treated as a member. I am not a member. It is as simple as that. I apologize for not having been more clear about this. It is not like I live in California, upset because a Texan doesn't consider me a Texan. It is more like I don't live in Texas so a Texan doesn't consider me a US citizen or an American because I am not a Texan! That is a much more accurate example. My sense of exclusion from my LDS friends stems from a similar exclusion of LDS folks by some fundamentalist Christians. Lets suppose they are Nazarenes. They do not exclude members of the LDS church from being Nazarene. They exclude members of the LDS church from being fully and complete Christian. Just as you do me. That is a whole different ballgame so to speak. Now I know you will say you don't do that, but the practical implication of LDS exclusivity does exactly that. I am called brother in the ward - that isn't because I am a fellow Christian, complete and intact as I am. It is because I am a fellow embodied spirit child - a brother of Christ and everyone else on earth. If I were granted fellow Christian status by my LDS friends they wouldn't just "tolerate" my presence in the ward and in the sacrament service as someone said earlier today. They would welcome me as a fellow Christian, perhaps of a different denomination, but still a full fledged brother in Christ. That is what you deny me. I will never see the eternal life God has promised me as His part of our covenant unless I become LDS in this life or the next. You allow me to live in a lower kingdom and then call it a form of heaven. Anything less than the full presence of eternal life where I can serve, learn and worship at the foot of the Lamb is not heaven, paradise, or the celestial kingdom. You don't believe I have any priestly authority, even within the sanctuary of my own church! That is excluding me from even my own faith! A LDS Christian might say to me, "go ahead and perform your own ordinances" - but they are meaningless to God because you are not authorized LDS - isn't that exclusive? Worse yet President Kimball, when an apostle clearly wrote that by performing my own ordinances in my own church I am committing blasphemy! Is that not intrusive and exclusionary? I hope you have a better sense now of what and how I feel. The faithful LDS person walks (metaphorically) right into the Anglican sanctuary and declares "what happens here is not accepted by Christ" just as the fundy non-LDS Christian stands outside the Mesa Temple and yells "Repent!" LDS Christians are generally much more courteous than that, but the implication is the same - you must accept LDS ordinances in this life or the next! Become LDS or settle for eternal life absent the dwelling of the Father and the Son. Isn't that pretty much correct? If not, please tell me. I hope this helps. Thanks, See, as I said, you do understand our beliefs and simply choose to not accept them. You might even think your beliefs are better than ours and that we should believe as you do, but we are not going to do that. And I think you know why. If we agreed with you we would be one of you and no longer one of us.
CV75 Posted June 1, 2020 Posted June 1, 2020 4 hours ago, Navidad said: I cannot think of anything else that upsets me. Any thoughts or comments that might provide insight and lead towards a lessening of the tension? Do you have a study quantifying the “[mutual] historic animosity between LDS Christians and non-LDS Christians beginning in New York in 1830 and continuing to this day”? It is clearly a conclusion you have come to through your “lived experience” which I take to be your lifetime, and presumably from various histories and writings of those harboring such animosity from before your time, often a reflection of their own times. I would hope any lack of charity between Christians would represent a minority of individual believers that by nature and definition of “denomination” must differ, and on some points even oppose, the tenets of other denominations. Suffering from feelings of judgement and exclusion are understandable personal reactions to both external and internal factors (I’m assuming these are generally complex), but I do not think they are guaranteed to be felt (or felt to be hurtful) by everyone, nor guaranteed to be caused from differences in points of doctrine. I find that bringing the Spirit into a dialog often diffuses tension and at least settles any feelings of judgement and exclusion for the one exercising faith. 1
Navidad Posted June 1, 2020 Author Posted June 1, 2020 1 hour ago, teddyaware said: I’m pretty sure you must know by now that an unworthy husband isn’t going to prevent a worthy wife from obtaining the fulness of celestial glory. The leaders of the Church have consistently taught this for many years, so I’m wondering how this heartbroken older lady picked up such an erroneous idea? Did anyone correct her during the class? No, however afterwards the ladies did gather around her to comfort her. Her husband has been dead for many years, she voiced concern he wouldn't even remember her. It was heart wrenching. I hesitated to even bring it up because it feels like a betrayal of the ward. In fact now, I regret having brought it up, not because it didn't happen just as I related it, but it feels like somethings I shouldn't have shared outside the "family" - of which I am not a part. Therefore I regret having shared it. I think it is important for you all to understand where I am by understanding my lived experiences. That is all I have to offer in the dialogue. Back to the lady; I may be wrong and I would love your input on this, but many of our elderly folks live still in another era of the Church. My sense was that what she was expressing is perhaps how a wife might have felt seventy years ago. I see that a lot in elders quorum where I , at 71 am on the young side!
CV75 Posted June 1, 2020 Posted June 1, 2020 14 minutes ago, Navidad said: Hi Calm: Thanks for your post. This is why I believe this dialogue is important. I do believe you are misunderstanding my use of the word exclude and exclusion. You seem to believe that I feel excluded because my LDS friends don't accept me as a member of the church. That is not the case at all. In no way do I feel excluded from the LDS faith; I am not of the LDS faith, how could I feel excluded from that? It is very important to me that you understand that. You are absolutely correct in everything you said, if my sense of exclusion was from the LDS church. Of course I don't expect to be treated as a member. I am not a member. It is as simple as that. I apologize for not having been more clear about this. It is not like I live in California, upset because a Texan doesn't consider me a Texan. It is more like I don't live in Texas so a Texan doesn't consider me a US citizen or an American because I am not a Texan! That is a much more accurate example. My sense of exclusion from my LDS friends stems from a similar exclusion of LDS folks by some fundamentalist Christians. Lets suppose they are Nazarenes. They do not exclude members of the LDS church from being Nazarene. They exclude members of the LDS church from being fully and complete Christian. Just as you do me. That is a whole different ballgame so to speak. Now I know you will say you don't do that, but the practical implication of LDS exclusivity does exactly that. I am called brother in the ward - that isn't because I am a fellow Christian, complete and intact as I am. It is because I am a fellow embodied spirit child - a brother of Christ and everyone else on earth. If I were granted fellow Christian status by my LDS friends they wouldn't just "tolerate" my presence in the ward and in the sacrament service as someone said earlier today. They would welcome me as a fellow Christian, perhaps of a different denomination, but still a full fledged brother in Christ. That is what you deny me. I will never see the eternal life God has promised me as His part of our covenant unless I become LDS in this life or the next. You allow me to live in a lower kingdom and then call it a form of heaven. Anything less than the full presence of eternal life where I can serve, learn and worship at the foot of the Lamb is not heaven, paradise, or the celestial kingdom. You don't believe I have any priestly authority, even within the sanctuary of my own church! That is excluding me from even my own faith! A LDS Christian might say to me, "go ahead and perform your own ordinances" - but they are meaningless to God because you are not authorized LDS - isn't that exclusive? Worse yet President Kimball, when an apostle clearly wrote that by performing my own ordinances in my own church I am committing blasphemy! Is that not intrusive and exclusionary? I hope you have a better sense now of what and how I feel. The faithful LDS person walks (metaphorically) right into the Anglican sanctuary and declares "what happens here is not accepted by Christ" just as the fundy non-LDS Christian stands outside the Mesa Temple and yells "Repent!" LDS Christians are generally much more courteous than that, but the implication is the same - you must accept LDS ordinances in this life or the next! Become LDS or settle for eternal life absent the dwelling of the Father and the Son. Isn't that pretty much correct? If not, please tell me. I hope this helps. Thanks, I think beginning with and maintaining the Spirit of the central message, by both the sender and the receiver, puts that which is seemingly intrusive and exclusionary into perspective. When we stand with Christ in our weakness, we are neither offended nor seek to offend as His grace attends us. Of course we mess up from time to time but He always invites us to stand with Him.
Navidad Posted June 1, 2020 Author Posted June 1, 2020 4 minutes ago, Ahab said: See, as I said, you do understand our beliefs and simply choose to not accept them. You might even think your beliefs are better than ours and that we should believe as you do, but we are not going to do that. And I think you know why. If we agreed with you we would be one of you and no longer one of us. Hi Ahab - Let me agree with you in a sense, however there is nothing "simply" or simple about it. That mocks our struggle. My wife and I spend hours and hours and hours in study, prayer, and thought. We spend hours and hours and hours at the ward. It is true we have chosen, as a result of much "work" not to accept certain LDS beliefs that we might have to in order to join the church. Many groups require a re-baptism to become a member. We are not against that at all. It is some of what seems to now be essentials that Joseph Smith seemed to term appendages that prevent us from joining. The number one thing is the exclusivity. Tell me I can join the church and not believe that it is the only true and living church on earth. Can I? I certainly know members who indicate they don't believe that. They have temple recommends too. That is where it gets confusing for us. We aren't sure what we have to believe. Do I believe Joseph Smith was a prophet like Billy Graham was? Yes! Do I believe Joseph Smith was a prophet like Elijah was? No. Can I join? And please remember, my first and foremost and really only concern is my standing as a believer - a Christian. Take away my evangelical identity, fine! Take away my Mennonite identity, fine. Take my Christian identity away and I have nothing left. That is what you have done right now. You said you love me. Well, love me then - just as I am!
Ahab Posted June 1, 2020 Posted June 1, 2020 14 minutes ago, Navidad said: It is not like I live in California, upset because a Texan doesn't consider me a Texan. It is more like I don't live in Texas so a Texan doesn't consider me a US citizen or an American because I am not a Texan! That is a much more accurate example. Just to be clear, only those who accept the covenant our Lord offers through his authorized representatives who have his priesthood authority, through baptism, are made heirs of the covenant and thus joint heirs with Christ as long as they remain faithful to him and repent when necessary. Those who are simply aware that covenant relationship is possible as something that is offered but who do not enter it through baptism are not heirs yet, and are not born again yet, because they have not done what is required of them. Using the analogy above, for them it is like knowing America exists and that Texas and California are part of it while not being an American citizen but believing they are.
Navidad Posted June 1, 2020 Author Posted June 1, 2020 1 minute ago, Ahab said: Just to be clear, only those who accept the covenant our Lord offers through his authorized representatives who have his priesthood authority, through baptism, are made heirs of the covenant and thus joint heirs with Christ as long as they remain faithful to him and repent when necessary. Those who are simply aware that covenant relationship is possible as something that is offered but who do not enter it through baptism are not heirs yet, and are not born again yet, because they have not done what is required of them. Using the analogy above, for them it is like knowing America exists and that Texas and California are part of it while not being an American citizen but believing they are. Bingo. You have nailed it. You have taken away my core Christian faith from me. I just "believe" I am a Christian. I am not in reality one at all. Thanks for participating in this thread. It really helps me to express what is going on inside me at a deep soul level. I hope this helps you understand me better. Oh and I do not believe my faith is better. You are incorrect in that. I believe my faith is valid - that God honors it and has given me the gift of eternal life with him. I believe my faith is reliable as well. I can depend on the practice and presence of Christ via the Holy Spirit in my life. You can't take that away from me. I also believe that you have that same gift. Perhaps for different reasons than you do! But I don't deny you anything because of your LDS faith. I celebrate it with you. Goodness knows I have studied it enough and appreciate its commitment to the atonement. 1
Ahab Posted June 1, 2020 Posted June 1, 2020 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Navidad said: Hi Ahab - Let me agree with you in a sense, however there is nothing "simply" or simple about it. That mocks our struggle. My wife and I spend hours and hours and hours in study, prayer, and thought. We spend hours and hours and hours at the ward. It is true we have chosen, as a result of much "work" not to accept certain LDS beliefs that we might have to in order to join the church. Many groups require a re-baptism to become a member. We are not against that at all. It is some of what seems to now be essentials that Joseph Smith seemed to term appendages that prevent us from joining. The number one thing is the exclusivity. Tell me I can join the church and not believe that it is the only true and living church on earth. Can I? Technically yes you could not believe that, but you would be wrong to not believe it because it is the only true and living church... and I could also say the only true and living church of Jesus Christ but that would be redundant. Quote I certainly know members who indicate they don't believe that. They have temple recommends too. That is where it gets confusing for us. We aren't sure what we have to believe. i think technically all that is required is that you believe it is the true and living church of Jesus Christ that has and accepts our Lord's authority. I don't think you'd be required to believe it is the only one, to be a member of it. Quote Do I believe Joseph Smith was a prophet like Billy Graham was? Yes! A prophet, maybe, but Billy Graham was never the only man on Earth with all of the keys of the kingdom of God, as the apostle Peter was in his day. Billy never had even one of those keys, and many members of the Church don't either. Quote Do I believe Joseph Smith was a prophet like Elijah was? No. Okay. I don't think it's terribly important for you to believe that. Quote Can I join? Yes, you can. I suggest you talk to the bishop of your local ward to get the ball rolling. He'll set you up with some elders and they'll tell you what you need to do. Quote And please remember, my first and foremost and really only concern is my standing as a believer - a Christian. Take away my evangelical identity, fine! Take away my Mennonite identity, fine. Take my Christian identity away and I have nothing left. That is what you have done right now. You said you love me. Well, love me then - just as I am! I suppose it depends on how you define Christian. I believe my Dad and many other members of my family are Christians even though they are not members of our Lord's church. I'd say a Christian is someone who is trying to be like Jesus Christ, to be as he is, whether or not we are already perfect at that. Edited June 1, 2020 by Ahab
Ahab Posted June 1, 2020 Posted June 1, 2020 15 minutes ago, Navidad said: Bingo. You have nailed it. You have taken away my core Christian faith from me. I just "believe" I am a Christian. I am not in reality one at all. Thanks for participating in this thread. It really helps me to express what is going on inside me at a deep soul level. I hope this helps you understand me better. Oh and I do not believe my faith is better. You are incorrect in that. I believe my faith is valid - that God honors it and has given me the gift of eternal life with him. I believe my faith is reliable as well. I can depend on the practice and presence of Christ via the Holy Spirit in my life. You can't take that away from me. I also believe that you have that same gift. Perhaps for different reasons than you do! But I don't deny you anything because of your LDS faith. I celebrate it with you. Goodness knows I have studied it enough and appreciate its commitment to the atonement. You seem to have misunderstood me. I believe you are Christian or a Christian even though you have not entered into a covenant with Jesus Christ. Using the analogy, again, you haven't followed all the steps yet under the administration of our Lord's authorized servants who have and accept his priesthood authority. You know about it, and you've gone through similar steps in your own country/kingdom, but you need our Lord's administrators to make you a member of his kingdom.
Navidad Posted June 2, 2020 Author Posted June 2, 2020 1 hour ago, CV75 said: Do you have a study quantifying the “[mutual] historic animosity between LDS Christians and non-LDS Christians beginning in New York in 1830 and continuing to this day”? It is clearly a conclusion you have come to through your “lived experience” which I take to be your lifetime, and presumably from various histories and writings of those harboring such animosity from before your time, often a reflection of their own times. I would hope any lack of charity between Christians would represent a minority of individual believers that by nature and definition of “denomination” must differ, and on some points even oppose, the tenets of other denominations. Suffering from feelings of judgement and exclusion are understandable personal reactions to both external and internal factors (I’m assuming these are generally complex), but I do not think they are guaranteed to be felt (or felt to be hurtful) by everyone, nor guaranteed to be caused from differences in points of doctrine. I find that bringing the Spirit into a dialog often diffuses tension and at least settles any feelings of judgement and exclusion for the one exercising faith. No, this is not my lived experience. It is the conclusion of both LDS and non-LDS sociologists and historians. I don't have time right now, but I would be happy to share with you citations. The fact that the LDS church has generally created a sense of the "other" as something less than is not disputed among any sociologists of religion that I know. I would add to that the necessity that in order to be fair one must also see them same in non-LDS Christians who form their identity by being anti-cult or anti anyone they define as not orthodox enough. This is a common characteristic of groups and especially religious groups of the mid to late 19th century in the US. Thanks for your comment.
alter idem Posted June 2, 2020 Posted June 2, 2020 2 hours ago, Ahab said: It happens when people don't hear or see or correctly understand good info that helps to correct false info. It's a regular thing here on this planet. Maybe someday she'll learn better. Maybe not. Those who continue to seek the truth will eventually find it. All we can do to teach others others is to share what is true and I don't think that equates to correcting others I think if false beliefs are shared in a class, we should make a point to try to teach correct principles. I'm surprised no one helped this woman understand that her worthiness is what she'll be judged on, not her husband's. Maybe Navidad misunderstood and she was sad about her husband's choices which, if he's not availed himself of the atonement could mean he may not join her in the Celestial kingdom. We all have agency. 2
Calm Posted June 2, 2020 Posted June 2, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, teddyaware said: feel badly for the 95 year old lady in our ward who was in tears in our Gospel Doctrine class because she wasn't certain she would ever see the celestial kingdom, because that can only be hers based on her husband's worthiness and the quality of their relationship. It broke my heart. There was such silence in the room. Yes, that upset me. It can be hard to correct someone when their emotions are strong because it is so easy to come across as being dismissive when you say to someone “you are wrong” or “your understanding is incorrect, that is not how it works”. Besides in face to face encounters, I have seen it happen over and over in online interaction. Reassuring someone will never pay for someone else’s unworthiness doesn’t work in a real, immediate painful situation. At the very least trust must be establish so they understand you are not trying to avoid the pain or make light of it. I am not sure that level of misunderstanding can be corrected in a SS class. It takes in depth questioning to discover her assumptions and how she got to that place. I suspect many were bewildered how to be supportive of her without making her believe they were supportive of what they knew she misunderstood. They didn’t want to make her feel worse by agreeing with a horrible belief that is thankfully false. They didn’t want to make her feel worse by seemingly trivializing her pain by telling her she was wrong. Thus the silence. (Assuming here the other class members understood because it is a very basic teaching.) I think the best solution might be for the bishop to visit her privately and teach her the correct principles there. In class, I think a recognition that we struggle because of our loved ones’ failings, that it is painful when our dreams of happiness and righteousness in our homes don’t come true would help create a sense that others see her pain as based on actual problems and not all in her head so to speak. And then focus on the healing power of the Atonement that will cover all sin, our own and others. And then move on if possible. If not, maybe the teacher or someone close to the person hurting could ask the individual if they would like to talk about in more detail later where there would be less distraction, that they, the teacher, would very much like to have the opportunity listen to them. Edited June 2, 2020 by Calm 3
Calm Posted June 2, 2020 Posted June 2, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Navidad said: 2 hours ago, Ahab said: Bingo. You have nailed it. You have taken away my core Christian faith from me. I just "believe" I am a Christian. I am not in reality one at all. If your faith requires you to have our covenantal relationship with God in order to be a Christian, I can see how you would interpret out doctrine that way. But that is not our doctrine, we do not define the discipleship of Christ only through having certain covenants. There are likely some LDS who see nonLDS as less Christian then they are. But that is a fundamental misunderstanding of what discipleship is, imo. We are disciples in different ways, but we are all disciples and if we are truly seeking Christ we are all true Christians even if we are mistaken in some of our beliefs in action...which we all are given we are mortal. Saints do not have the right or the ability to determine who is and who isn't a true Christian because we are not mindreaders. Those who choose to do so may end up unhappy they did because of the whole judge not unrighteously thing...and I include any leaders who have clumsily used "so- called Christian" to describe a Christian who is being the best disciple they know how to be (as opposed to hypocrites who claim the label but are not seeking Christ). Saints are a small part, very, very important part of Christianity, but we are not the only true citizens of that broad country. Edited June 2, 2020 by Calm 3
Navidad Posted June 2, 2020 Author Posted June 2, 2020 1 hour ago, alter idem said: I think if false beliefs are shared in a class, we should make a point to try to teach correct principles. I'm surprised no one helped this woman understand that her worthiness is what she'll be judged on, not her husband's. Maybe Navidad misunderstood and she was sad about her husband's choices which, if he's not availed himself of the atonement could mean he may not join her in the Celestial kingdom. We all have agency. They were mission and temple presidents and matrons in at least three different countries that I know of. Her husband had an impeccable testimony from all I have been told.
Tacenda Posted June 2, 2020 Posted June 2, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Navidad said: They were mission and temple presidents and matrons in at least three different countries that I know of. Her husband had an impeccable testimony from all I have been told. Navidad, could it be that you wish so much to be a member because you love the community in Mormonism, but are frustrated that because your testimony isn't enough just based on your testimony of Christ, it's like a punch in the stomach? Do you believe the church is unique because it's organization enables a feeling or a spirit in their meetings that don't happen in the Mennonite church as much? I'm just wondering why the Mennonite religion isn't enough for you, that you feel you must attend the LDS church. I hope I haven't offended by what asking or inferring. I believe you're not alone in thinking there is something special in the LDS church and think that a few converts to the church on this board gained their testimonies because of the members or the organization in the church. Edited June 2, 2020 by Tacenda
Calm Posted June 2, 2020 Posted June 2, 2020 1 hour ago, Navidad said: They were mission and temple presidents and matrons in at least three different countries that I know of. Her husband had an impeccable testimony from all I have been told. If they have been mission and temple president and matron and he had an impeccable testimony, yet this is the way she felt about their life, I got to wonder what else was going on. She seems to have some fundamental misunderstanding...might it have been due in part to age? Quote feel badly for the 95 year old lady in our ward who was in tears in our Gospel Doctrine class because she wasn't certain she would ever see the celestial kingdom, because that can only be hers based on her husband's worthiness and the quality of their relationship.
Navidad Posted June 2, 2020 Author Posted June 2, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: Navidad, could it be that you wish so much to be a member because you love the community in Mormonism, but are frustrated that because your testimony isn't enough just based on your testimony of Christ, it's like a punch in the stomach? Do you believe the church is unique because it's organization enables a feeling or a spirit in their meetings that don't happen in the Mennonite church as much? I'm just wondering why the Mennonite religion isn't enough for you, that you feel you must attend the LDS church. I hope I haven't offended by what asking or inferring. I believe you're not alone in thinking there is something special in the LDS church and think that a few converts to the church on this board gained their testimonies because of the members or the organization in the church. Thanks Tacenda for your comment. I absolutely love the community in Mormonism. There is no doubt about that. One of the primary reasons is because it reminds me so much of Mennonite community, right down to the family emphasis and more importantly the Snickerdoodles! My interactions at times with members of the LDS church is indeed like a punch in the stomach. My wife has come home from ward on many occasions in tears. I love her dearly and we will celebrate our fiftieth wedding anniversary this year. She is the most Godly woman I know (not that I am biased) and I hate to see her hurt. I won't go into the specifics, but please just believe me she is a strong Godly woman and not easily hurt. A "punch in the stomach" is a wonderful word image of how we feel after ward sometimes and how I feel at times after a few hours on this forum. Your comment about feeling and spirit in the meetings is a bit trickier. I very much miss the music in the Mennonite church. I very much miss the quiet sacredness of the sacrament service that is in the Mennonite church. Our ward is incredibly noisy with toddlers running up and down the aisle. Mennonites also have lots of toddlers, but we also have lots of nursery space with speakers from the sanctuary. The LDS sacrament service is special because of the participation of the regular folks. I love the family emphasis. I miss the lack of teaching from the pulpit. Some of our folks go off on tangents; but of course Mennonite bishops and elders do that sometimes too - as do I!!!!!! Further, I need to explain our presence in the ward in the first place. We live in a community of 1200 people in the high desert of Mexico. I have my choice of two Catholic churches, and a Pentecostal church in our community. All the services are in Spanish. My wife does not speak or understand much Spanish beyond household requirements. It is two hours to the nearest Mennonite church. It is an old order church. Their services are in German and Russian Pennsylvania Dutch. We wouldn't understand a word of the services. That is not an option. We attend many funeral, wedding, quinceneara services in the Catholic church. The priest is a terrific guy - comes to our house often. Fifteen minutes from our town is a historic Mexican colony with two wards: one English and one Spanish. I have been deliberately and consciously studying Mormon history for over twenty years, stemming from my interest in religion and conflict. About ten years ago I knew I needed a better understanding of Mormon doctrine since it and the church's history are inextricably linked. We retired here from San Diego full-time in 2014. We knew we had a church language problem. When we found out there was an English ward, we were very happy. I, especially was excited about seeing real live LDS folks up close and personal. We showed up one day unannounced. Just about everyone initially assumed we were members who moved to Mexico from the states. Of course it didn't take a week or so to discover we were Mennonites. Fine they said, wonderful candidates for conversion of which there are very few out here in the desert. I soon became infamous, notorious, and an oddity for my knowledge of LDS history, especially Mexican LDS history. We are an anomaly. Some love us, some don't know what to do with us, and some resent us. If the leaders welcome us to participate to the extent allowed what does that say about the need to convert? Some frown when we participate. One funny event, this past Christmas, our bishop asked my wife to give the sacrament talk on Christmas Sunday. She gave a wonderful talk (of course). Lots of visitors that Sunday, including an area seventy sitting on the stand. He was smiling and nodding through her whole talk. Of course he had no idea she wasn't a member. Neither did the many visitors! Afterwards our ward members got a real kick out of telling the visitors that the wonderful talk was given by our "Mennonite sister!" The bishop told the area! It was quite a lot of fun. I was very proud of her, the bishop for being courageous and confident enough in her to ask her, and the area for not saying to him "You did what?" There is one person on this forum who gets rather upset with me for "bragging" about all the things we do in the ward, including washing toilets. He or she just doesn't understand how emotional it all is for us . . . and I am sure for some of the members of our ward as well. Our ward is full of LDS blue-bloods by ancestry. We sit behind (of course we have assigned pews) a general authority emeritus who is 92 years old. I am sure you all would recognize his name. He is the kindest and most gracious man to us (besides the bishop) in the whole church. Every week he stands up to greet us and asks me if I am going to sing. If I say no, he demands to know why not and informs me he has rank on everyone there and can use that to get me to sing anytime he wants! What a sweet Godly man! So yes we love attending the ward despite the tears and unintentional wounds. And of course we are guilty of saying things that are offensive on occasion as well. I hope this all too long response helps you understand our situation better. Edited June 2, 2020 by Navidad clarity 1
Tacenda Posted June 2, 2020 Posted June 2, 2020 29 minutes ago, Navidad said: Thanks Tacenda for your comment. I absolutely love the community in Mormonism. There is no doubt about that. One of the primary reasons is because it reminds me so much of Mennonite community, right down to the family emphasis and more importantly the Snickerdoodles! My interactions at times with members of the LDS church is indeed like a punch in the stomach. My wife has come home from ward on many occasions in tears. I love her dearly and we will celebrate our fiftieth wedding anniversary this year. She is the most Godly woman I know (not that I am biased) and I hate to see her hurt. I won't go into the specifics, but please just believe me she is a strong Godly woman and not easily hurt. A "punch in the stomach" is a wonderful word image of how we feel after ward sometimes and how I feel at times after a few hours on this forum. Your comment about feeling and spirit in the meetings is a bit trickier. I very much miss the music in the Mennonite church. I very much miss the quiet sacredness of the sacrament service that is in the Mennonite church. Our ward is incredibly noisy with toddlers running up and down the aisle. Mennonites also have lots of toddlers, but we also have lots of nursery space with speakers from the sanctuary. The LDS sacrament service is special because of the participation of the regular folks. I love the family emphasis. I miss the lack of teaching from the pulpit. Some of our folks go off on tangents; but of course Mennonite bishops and elders do that sometimes too - as do I!!!!!! Further, I need to explain our presence in the ward in the first place. We live in a community of 1200 people in the high desert of Mexico. I have my choice of two Catholic churches, and a Pentecostal church in our community. All the services are in Spanish. My wife does not speak or understand much Spanish beyond household requirements. It is two hours to the nearest Mennonite church. It is an old order church. Their services are in German and Russian Pennsylvania Dutch. We wouldn't understand a word of the services. That is not an option. We attend many funeral, wedding, quinceneara services in the Catholic church. The priest is a terrific guy - comes to our house often. Fifteen minutes from our town is a historic Mexican colony with two wards: one English and one Spanish. I have been deliberately and consciously studying Mormon history for over twenty years, stemming from my interest in religion and conflict. About ten years ago I knew I needed a better understanding of Mormon doctrine since it and the church's history are inextricably linked. We retired here from San Diego full-time in 2014. We knew we had a church language problem. When we found out there was an English ward, we were very happy. I, especially was excited about seeing real live LDS folks up close and personal. We showed up one day unannounced. Just about everyone initially assumed we were members who moved to Mexico from the states. Of course it didn't take a week or so to discover we were Mennonites. Fine they said, wonderful candidates for conversion of which there are very few out here in the desert. I soon became infamous, notorious, and an oddity for my knowledge of LDS history, especially Mexican LDS history. We are an anomaly. Some love us, some don't know what to do with us, and some resent us. If the leaders welcome us to participate to the extent allowed what does that say about the need to convert? Some frown when we participate. One funny event, this past Christmas, our bishop asked my wife to give the sacrament talk on Christmas Sunday. She gave a wonderful talk (of course). Lots of visitors that Sunday, including an area seventy sitting on the stand. He was smiling and nodding through her whole talk. Of course he had no idea she wasn't a member. Neither did the many visitors! Afterwards our ward members got a real kick out of telling the visitors that the wonderful talk was given by our "Mennonite sister!" The bishop told the area! It was quite a lot of fun. I was very proud of her, the bishop for being courageous and confident enough in her to ask her, and the area for not saying to him "You did what?" There is one person on this forum who gets rather upset with me for "bragging" about all the things we do in the ward, including washing toilets. He or she just doesn't understand how emotional it all is for us . . . and I am sure for some of the members of our ward as well. Our ward is full of LDS blue-bloods by ancestry. We sit behind (of course we have assigned pews) a general authority emeritus who is 92 years old. I am sure you all would recognize his name. He is the kindest and most gracious man to us (besides the bishop) in the whole church. Every week he stands up to greet us and asks me if I am going to sing. If I say no, he demands to know why not and informs me he has rank on everyone there and can use that to get me to sing anytime he wants! What a sweet Godly man! So yes we love attending the ward despite the tears and unintentional wounds. And of course we are guilty of saying things that are offensive on occasion as well. I hope this all too long response helps you understand our situation better. I so appreciate your taking the time to fill me in on your reasoning for attending the LDS church! I bet I knew this already, and had forgotten, my bad if so. Sounds like you and your wonderful wife, are jewels in the ward family and sometimes with a few thorns, haha!! I kid!! But it truly sounds like a wonderful ward family (families don't always agree, haha) good for you! I now understand.
Navidad Posted June 2, 2020 Author Posted June 2, 2020 52 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I so appreciate your taking the time to fill me in on your reasoning for attending the LDS church! I bet I knew this already, and had forgotten, my bad if so. Sounds like you and your wonderful wife, are jewels in the ward family and sometimes with a few thorns, haha!! I kid!! But it truly sounds like a wonderful ward family (families don't always agree, haha) good for you! I now understand. Thank you. You are very kind!
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