Navidad Posted June 9, 2020 Author Posted June 9, 2020 1 hour ago, Ahab said: Navidad, there was no need for your post that I am now quoting. I was already aware that we see things differently and I believe I understand your beliefs as well as if not better than you understand my beliefs. And when I say my beliefs I am referring to beliefs which I believe are in agreement with the true gospel of Jesus Christ as well as what is taught by the leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I was also already aware that many of your beliefs are in agreement with the teachings of people who are not members of the true church of Jesus Christ, and that there are many churches or members of churches who believe that what you believe is all that is required for salvation. For many, true beliefs are all that is needed, and many of them agree on many issues which they believe are true. But that doesn't mean that what you or they believe is really the truth. I had a thought while conversing with you that I think conveys the point I have been trying to get across to you, and although I've already shared it with you I would like to say it again while asking you to think about it some more. The only people who are fully saved are those who belong to the true church of Jesus Christ. And the only way to become a member of the true church is to receive the ordinances from members of that church who have our Lord's authority to accept and confirm someone as a member of that church. No other church or member of a church can do that with our Lord's authority because no other church or Christian has our Lord's authority to do that. I doubt that anything I have said will change your mind but it would be nice if you could at least understand what I have said while realizing that to me and many other people what I have said is true even though you do not agree. I understand completely that you believe that what you have said is true. Do you understand completely that I believe what I have said is equally true, even though you do not agree? That we don't agree with each other says nothing about the validity or truth of the others' beliefs. We will only know for sure once we die. Until then we can only respect and honor our differences. I do believe that Christ is looking at us in our differences. Every day I wonder what He thinks about all this! That is the key question. Best to you.
Navidad Posted June 9, 2020 Author Posted June 9, 2020 1 hour ago, rodheadlee said: I am a simple man so I want to want to lay this out in a simple manner. Until you have a witness of the Holy Spirit that Jesus Christ built the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and that it is His church and that everything He says in the Doctrine and Covenants 1 is true, you won't understand us. So, until I agree with you, I won't understand you? That is a very interesting perspective! Can I not understand you and disagree with you about D&C 1? I am not interested in debating all of this. I have too much else in my life right now that is too important to me. I have a very strong witness of the Holy Spirit in my life and that you can't deny!
Navidad Posted June 9, 2020 Author Posted June 9, 2020 1 hour ago, mfbukowski said: So glad you didn't mention it! Ha! Sometimes my sense of humor is as bad as yours!
rodheadlee Posted June 9, 2020 Posted June 9, 2020 (edited) Just now, Navidad said: So, until I agree with you, I won't understand you? That is a very interesting perspective! Can I not understand you and disagree with you about D&C 1? I am not interested in debating all of this. I have too much else in my life right now that is too important to me. I have a very strong witness of the Holy Spirit in my life and that you can't deny! No you missed the most important part, until you have a witness of the Holy Spirit. No one can convince you except the Holy Spirit of the truth Doctrine and Covenants 1. Edited June 9, 2020 by rodheadlee
Navidad Posted June 9, 2020 Author Posted June 9, 2020 (edited) 11 minutes ago, rodheadlee said: I know you miss the most important part until you have a witness of the Holy Spirit. No one can convince you except the Holy Spirit of the truth Doctrine and Covenants 1. My friend, I don't know how to respond to that??? I have a witness of the Holy Spirit in my life. Every day. Every day. Every day. Constantly. He directs and guides - in everything I do in word or in deed (Col 3:17) - my life verse. I would be a fool to say I always respond perfectly to his direction. But, with everything that is within me I try. Do you believe that? Will you grant me that? Or until I come up with the correct LDS answer, you will assure me I am ignoring His leading? Agree with us or you are ignoring the leading of the Holy Spirit? Is that really your message to a fellow Christian? Oh, and I just noticed you live in Mexico? In Dublan or Juarez? Perhaps we already know each other? I am happy to meet you anywhere any time to discuss this. Thanks, Navidad Edited June 9, 2020 by Navidad
Calm Posted June 9, 2020 Posted June 9, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Navidad said: I have a witness of the Holy Spirit in my life. He is not saying a witness in general or about your life or something, he means until you get the specific witness that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is God's authorized church for performing the saving ordinances, etc., you will not understand us. There are somethings I have found that sympathy, empathy, and research don't teach or allow to understand as the other is experiencing it. One is the experience of the confirmation of this truth. You likely have understanding of truths we don't know through gifts given to you since that is how the world seems to me. We all need to bring our ignorance to God, who then gives us his understanding....what we can bear at this time. Edited June 9, 2020 by Calm 4
rodheadlee Posted June 9, 2020 Posted June 9, 2020 1 hour ago, Navidad said: My friend, I don't know how to respond to that??? I have a witness of the Holy Spirit in my life. Every day. Every day. Every day. Constantly. He directs and guides - in everything I do in word or in deed (Col 3:17) - my life verse. I would be a fool to say I always respond perfectly to his direction. But, with everything that is within me I try. Do you believe that? Will you grant me that? Or until I come up with the correct LDS answer, you will assure me I am ignoring His leading? Agree with us or you are ignoring the leading of the Holy Spirit? Is that really your message to a fellow Christian? Oh, and I just noticed you live in Mexico? In Dublan or Juarez? Perhaps we already know each other? I am happy to meet you anywhere any time to discuss this. Thanks, Navidad I corrected my sentence. I live in La Salina, Baja California. It's about 30 miles north of Ensenada (see the thread in Social Hall "Is it Wrong to pray for evil people to die"). If you ask the Holy Spirit If Jesus Christ started the Church of Jesus Christ Latter-day Saints and if D&C 1 is the Word of Christ , the Holy Spirit will not lie to you. When He answers you, you'll understand. How long that takes, I know not. 1
Navidad Posted June 9, 2020 Author Posted June 9, 2020 11 hours ago, rodheadlee said: I corrected my sentence. I live in La Salina, Baja California. It's about 30 miles north of Ensenada (see the thread in Social Hall "Is it Wrong to pray for evil people to die"). If you ask the Holy Spirit If Jesus Christ started the Church of Jesus Christ Latter-day Saints and if D&C 1 is the Word of Christ , the Holy Spirit will not lie to you. When He answers you, you'll understand. How long that takes, I know not. Well I am bit far away then. I live in Chihuahua! Best wishes. . . . 1
Navidad Posted June 9, 2020 Author Posted June 9, 2020 13 hours ago, Calm said: He is not saying a witness in general or about your life or something, he means until you get the specific witness that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is God's authorized church for performing the saving ordinances, etc., you will not understand us. There are somethings I have found that sympathy, empathy, and research don't teach or allow to understand as the other is experiencing it. One is the experience of the confirmation of this truth. You likely have understanding of truths we don't know through gifts given to you since that is how the world seems to me. We all need to bring our ignorance to God, who then gives us his understanding....what we can bear at this time. Well said! I appreciate that! Take care!
Ahab Posted June 9, 2020 Posted June 9, 2020 13 hours ago, Navidad said: Do you understand completely that I believe what I have said is equally true, even though you do not agree? That what you have said is equally true? How can you believe that your beliefs are as equally true as my beliefs? I would appreciate it if you would clarify what you meant when you said that. 13 hours ago, Navidad said: That we don't agree with each other says nothing about the validity or truth of the others' beliefs. Uh, yes, it actually does. All truth is in harmony, so when people do not agree with each other that shows that at least one of them believes something that is not true. Both could be wrong, or one could be right while the other is wrong. 13 hours ago, Navidad said: We will only know for sure once we die. I don't agree with that either. What is it about death that you think will help you to see that you are wrong or that I am correct in my beliefs? We, as spirits without our mortal bodies, could still disagree with each other. 13 hours ago, Navidad said: Until then we can only respect and honor our differences. No, we can also respect and honor each other's right to believe whatever each of us believes, even when our beliefs are different, without respecting and honoring our differences. I don't respect or honor our different beliefs, or any beliefs which I believe are not true. 13 hours ago, Navidad said: I do believe that Christ is looking at us in our differences. Every day I wonder what He thinks about all this! That is the key question. I believe he sees that we do not agree with each other and that he knows why we do not agree. And that he knows we both can learn from him and our Father in heaven about what is true and what isn't.
Navidad Posted June 9, 2020 Author Posted June 9, 2020 3 hours ago, Ahab said: That what you have said is equally true? How can you believe that your beliefs are as equally true as my beliefs? I would appreciate it if you would clarify what you meant when you said that. Uh, yes, it actually does. All truth is in harmony, so when people do not agree with each other that shows that at least one of them believes something that is not true. Both could be wrong, or one could be right while the other is wrong. I don't agree with that either. What is it about death that you think will help you to see that you are wrong or that I am correct in my beliefs? We, as spirits without our mortal bodies, could still disagree with each other. No, we can also respect and honor each other's right to believe whatever each of us believes, even when our beliefs are different, without respecting and honoring our differences. I don't respect or honor our different beliefs, or any beliefs which I believe are not true. I believe he sees that we do not agree with each other and that he knows why we do not agree. And that he knows we both can learn from him and our Father in heaven about what is true and what isn't. Hi amigo - let me try this example about truth, ok? I believe with all my heart and it is my truth that my wife is the most beautiful woman on earth and that I am the luckiest man on earth to be married to her! That is a profound truth! Can you dispute that? Of course you can, by assuring me that you believe with all your heart and it is your truth that your wife is the most beautiful woman on earth and that you are the luckiest man on earth to be married to her! That is a profound truth. Can I dispute that? Of course I can! And so on. Can both our truths exist at the same time without either being wrong? Of course they can. That is why I believe that the opposite of one profound truth may be another equally profound truth. My reality and belief about my wife is indeed truth, is it not? Or is the opposite of each and every truth a falsehood for you just because you recognize a different truth? Sometimes truths change, don't they? In our respective churches our truths have changed over time. There are many examples in your church, in mine, in the Catholic church as so on. What is true for the Sunni may not necessarily be true for the Shia. Sufi truths are found in both sects and in neither of them. A few truths are timeless; they never change, because they are immutable and absolute. There are very few of those in the universe but there certainly are some. God is good and God is love. Those are two of the few immutable truths. God leads us to recognize and know them. In general, He leads all Christians to recognize those truths that are immutable. For me, one of the tests of immutable truth is that God has led all his followers to discover them. If there are significant differences in truths within the large Christian community, we can assume those specific truths are not immutable and absolute. They are still truth for this group or that, but they are not immutable. For the relativist, nothing is immutable and absolute. As Christians we must reject relativism. That is of course, our collective truth. Francis A. Schaeffer was a great evangelical thinker who taught me a lot. He said "“In passing we should note this curious mark of our age: The only absolute allowed is the absolute insistence that there is no absolute." As Christians we collectively reject this absolute insistence absolutely. So what is our collective challenge? I believe it is to have the wisdom to discern . . . to discern the differences between my and my group's truths and God's absolute truths. . . . to discern the difference between my and my group's convictions and absolute certainty. That perhaps is the great challenge of the Christian community. It is hard work. Loyalty to the group causes us to clutch our truths to our bosoms, we cuddle them for so long until they become so much a part of us, we cannot see them in any way but as absolute. We believe them and then find them in Scripture and declare "Eureka, I was right!" I am comforted by the fact that God has revealed certain truths to all of his children. We can gather around those for they are absolute!
Ahab Posted June 9, 2020 Posted June 9, 2020 20 minutes ago, Navidad said: Hi amigo - let me try this example about truth, ok? I believe with all my heart and it is my truth that my wife is the most beautiful woman on earth and that I am the luckiest man on earth to be married to her! That is a profound truth! Can you dispute that? Of course you can, by assuring me that you believe with all your heart and it is your truth that your wife is the most beautiful woman on earth and that you are the luckiest man on earth to be married to her! That is a profound truth. Can I dispute that? Of course I can! And so on. Can both our truths exist at the same time without either being wrong? Of course they can. That is why I believe that the opposite of one profound truth may be another equally profound truth. My reality and belief about my wife is indeed truth, is it not? Or is the opposite of each and every truth a falsehood for you just because you recognize a different truth? I think I understand what you meant now, but that is more a romantical notion than reality, and even where romance is concerned I would rather be real/truthful than use hyperbole. So I would prefer to say things like "my wife is the most wonderful/beautiful woman that I have ever known" and that "she is perfect for me" than try to convey the idea that my wife is the absolute best/most supreme woman among all other women. And my wife appreciates it when I am more truthful with her, too. 20 minutes ago, Navidad said: Sometimes truths change, don't they? In a relative sense, yes the truth sometimes changes, but not in an absolute sense. Like what time it is right now. It's 2:30pm where I am but in a minute the time will change, and yet it was 2:30 when I said that and that is the truth. 20 minutes ago, Navidad said: In our respective churches our truths have changed over time. There are many examples in your church, in mine, in the Catholic church as so on. What is true for the Sunni may not necessarily be true for the Shia. Sufi truths are found in both sects and in neither of them. Context is important, but something is either true or it isn't. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the one and only true church of Jesus Christ, and it will always be, even if we call it by some other name later. 20 minutes ago, Navidad said: A few truths are timeless; they never change, because they are immutable and absolute. There are very few of those in the universe but there certainly are some. God is good and God is love. Those are two of the few immutable truths. God leads us to recognize and know them. In general, He leads all Christians to recognize those truths that are immutable. For me, one of the tests of immutable truth is that God has led all his followers to discover them. If there are significant differences in truths within the large Christian community, we can assume those specific truths are not immutable and absolute. They are still truth for this group or that, but they are not immutable. All truth is immutable within its own sphere in the sense that if it ever is or was or will be true then it is still considered the truth. If something isn't true, though, and it wasn't true before, and it won't ever be true, then it isn't the truth. 20 minutes ago, Navidad said: For the relativist, nothing is immutable and absolute. As Christians we must reject relativism. That is of course, our collective truth. Francis A. Schaeffer was a great evangelical thinker who taught me a lot. He said "“In passing we should note this curious mark of our age: The only absolute allowed is the absolute insistence that there is no absolute." As Christians we collectively reject this absolute insistence absolutely. So what is our collective challenge? I believe it is to have the wisdom to discern . . . to discern the differences between my and my group's truths and God's absolute truths. . . . to discern the difference between my and my group's convictions and absolute certainty. That perhaps is the great challenge of the Christian community. It is hard work. Loyalty to the group causes us to clutch our truths to our bosoms, we cuddle them for so long until they become so much a part of us, we cannot see them in any way but as absolute. We believe them and then find them in Scripture and declare "Eureka, I was right!" I am comforted by the fact that God has revealed certain truths to all of his children. We can gather around those for they are absolute! Once we know something is true we should embrace it and never doubt that it is the truth. Some people believe something is true when it isn't true, though, and that can prevent them from embracing some truth.
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