Restored Gospel?

[RichYoungRuler]

13 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

Again, RichYoungRuler, I don't know you.  But your comments in this thread seem to idicate that you believe that:

1) You do not believe in giving your heat, mind, and soul to Christ & following Him, and 

2) Salvation comes via man's ability to pass a theology test.  Accepting Christ isn't sufficient.  

You have your right to believe those thing.   But no one where should follow you, as ironically stated in Galations 1.  Rather, each of us in going to strive to follow Christ and what He reveals to each of us.

Wouldn't it make more sense to say that if you believe that you must keep the commandments then you believe that "accepting Christ isn't sufficient"?

In other words, I believe that Christ's work on the cross is sufficient.  Therefore, keeping the commandments will never result in any form of salvation.

Depends on how you define "the gospel". 

[RichYoungRuler]

11 hours ago, Maidservant said:

Never, ever understand the gospel and how we are meant to be embodying it from a couple isolated verses. Besides what the heck does accursed mean? It's not a technical term.

P.S. Paul didn't give the gospel.

If Paul didn't give the gospel, what does "I declare unto you the gospel" mean?

He tells us very clearly what this "gospel" is and warns those who received it that there would be angels from heaven that would come and try to change it.

How much more clear and easy can this be?

[pogi]

1 hour ago, RichYoungRuler said:

The question isn't "do you believe that Jesus Christ died for your sins?".

Yes...it is.  Read the passage.  You have only posted it like 13 times, I thought you would know it well by now.

19 hours ago, RichYoungRuler said:

We are saved if we keep in memory (i.e. believe) that Jesus Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again the third day.

 

2 By which also ye are ^asaved, if ye ^bkeep in memory ... that Christ ^adied for our ^bsins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he ^arose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

We, 1) "keep in memory" that, 2) "Christ died for our sins" and that 3) "he was buried" and 4) "that he rose again the third day".

I guess we are set then!

1 hour ago, RichYoungRuler said:

and there is no mention of keeping the commandments.

Exactly!  It doesn't matter if we keep them or not, all that matters according to you is that we keep in mind that Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose again the third day.  If we keep that in mind, then we are saved.  It doesn't matter what we do beyond that according to that passage.  So, leave us in peace. We have met every criteria according to you.

 

Edited March 13, 2020 by pogi

[RichYoungRuler]

52 minutes ago, Amulek said:

Maybe not in that specific passage, but Jesus seemed to be pretty big on the subject. 

"...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matt. 19:17)

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15)

And the Apostle John said, "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." (1 John 2:3-6)

Or, if you want to stick with Paul (who modern day protestants seem to worship more than even Jesus), he said "Be ye followers of me, even as I am of Christ." (1 Cor. 11:1)

And then, again, in Romans, "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good" (v. 12). And "obeying the commandments of God is everything." (1 Cor. 7:19, NRSV)

Seriously, we can go all day like this. But it ultimately comes down to the simple fact that it's impossible to be an authentic disciple of Jesus Christ unless you are genuinely willing to follow Him. 

Accepting Christ is like having a sign that says, "Under new management." If you think that means just believing something and not having to actually do anything, you are sadly mistaken.

Commandment keepers think they are keeping the commandments, but in reality they don't even know all of the commandments...much less keep them.

Suppose you are found guilty in a court of law of perjury (lying), stealing, murder, blasphemy, rape and many, many more crimes.  Do you think claiming how good you have been would save you and the judge would be willing to overlook all of the times you broke the law?  Nonsense!  

The beauty of "the gospel" of Jesus Christ is that He will pay that penalty for anyone willing to believe that His works are sufficient.

"Keep in memory" does not mean "keep the commandments". 

[smac97]

14 minutes ago, pogi said:

Quote

and there is no mention of keeping the commandments.

It doesn't matter if we keep them or not, all that matters according to you is that we keep in mind that Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose again the third day.  If we keep that in mind, then we are saved.  It doesn't matter what we do beyond that according to that passage.  So, leave us in peace. We have met every criteria according to you.

I believe Pogi's point is that some folks (apparently including RYR) believe X (where X = "We are saved if we keep in memory (i.e. believe) that Jesus Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again the third day").

Pogi apparently believes in X + Y (where Y = something like "Faith/belief includes works/obedience").

Pogi, then, posits that adding Y to X does not negate X (i.e. "It doesn't matter what we do beyond that according to that passage").  

Pogi, is that a fair summary of your position?

By way of analogy:

Bob visits a doctor, who tells him he needs to exercise 30 minutes three times a week in order to improve his health.  Bob begins doing so, finds that he enjoys it, and so starts exercising for 45 minutes four times a week.  Is Bob contravening the doctor's advice by doing more that what he instructed Bob to do?  Of course not.  Would it make sense, then, for some stranger to come along and excoriate Bob for his efforts?  "Hey!  What are you playing at?  Your doctor told you to exercise three times a week.  Where do you get off exercising more than that?"

Bob might respond: "First, you are not my doctor, and I didn't ask you to intrude into my relationship with him.  Second, I am following my doctor's advice.  Third, my exercise routine is neither extreme nor dangerous, and is in perfect harmony with my doctor's advice.  Fourth, even if the extra exercise I am doing is unnecessary to improve my health, it's not injuring me or anyone else, and is making me happy."

Thanks,

-Smac

[CV75]

1 hour ago, RichYoungRuler said:

First clarify what you are calling "the gospel".

You quoted 3 Nephi 27:13, which is the best place in the BoM to define "the gospel", so we can compare, but you didn't include all of the passage which identifies what "gospel" is being presented:

I didn’t have to, as I knew you would see it in the following verses (13-17), which convey the same gospel as 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. Enduring to the end is accomplished by keeping the gospel in memory, and Jesus describes how to keep this in memory in 3 Nephi 18. Some key words and phrases involving keeping the gospel in memory are: remembrance, remember, keep, keep these sayings, watch and pray always, witness, come unto me, feel and see, etc.

1 hour ago, RichYoungRuler said:

Why did Joseph Smith not clarify the "fullness of the gospel" when he "correctly translated" 1 Corinthians 15:1-4?

The idea of the “fulness” was introduced elsewhere in the scripture, so it was not expedient to add it to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. You might was well ask why Paul didn’t use the term here when he used it with the Romans and Ephesians.

1 hour ago, RichYoungRuler said:

Again, he didn't change a thing and that passage very plainly states "the gospel by which ye are saved".

If you, me or an angel from heaven add anything to that gospel which he gave, let that person be accursed.  He even repeated it!

Bottom line, mormons choose to believe another gospel.

I can see why you've gotten some of the answers you've gotten, and how you sabotage your own questions. It seems you attend to Joseph Smith and "another gospel" more than actually following 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

[smac97]

48 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said:

Commandment keepers think they are keeping the commandments, but in reality they don't even know all of the commandments...

I'm okay with that.  The Atonement covers errors/sins/transgressions committed in ignorance.  See Mosiah 3:11 ("For behold, and also his blood atoneth for the sins of those ... who have ignorantly sinned.")

Quote

much less keep them.

Well, I think we are trying hard to obey God, and I think we are succeeding in many respects.  To the extent we fail, we need to repent and keep trying.  Rinse, lather, repeat.

We'll necessarily fail at achieving a perfect faith and obedience ("For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" - Romans 3:23), hence the need for the Atonement.

Quote

Suppose you are found guilty in a court of law of perjury (lying), stealing, murder, blasphemy, rape and many, many more crimes.  Do you think claiming how good you have been would save you and the judge would be willing to overlook all of the times you broke the law?  Nonsense!  

I quite agree.  Obedience to commandments in Column A does not excuse or justify disobedience to commandments in Column B.

Quote

The beauty of "the gospel" of Jesus Christ is that He will pay that penalty for anyone willing to believe that His works are sufficient.

I quite agree.

Quote

"Keep in memory" does not mean "keep the commandments". 

I think it does.

The Bible mandates obedience to the commandments of God.

"If ye love me, keep my commandments" (John 14:15) is a very big deal for me, particularly when considered in conjunction with Matthew 22:

Quote

35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

To love God is the "first and great commandment."  And obedience to God's commandments is an inherent feature of that love ("If ye love me...").

So obedience is important for me.  And for God too, I think.  "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."  (John 7:21).

I don't think we get to just make things up as we go along.  I think the Lord has given us commandments.  And He wants us to obey them.  I really don't think He wants us to evade or ignore those commandments, or use sophistry to rationalize disobedience to them.

I don't think you'll ever be able to persuade me that obedience to God is an only-obey-when-you-are-in-the-mood-and-otherwise-you-can-do-whatever-you-want-because-OSAS kind of thing.  That is the defect that, in my view, renders OSAS so unacceptable to me.  

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited March 13, 2020 by smac97

[RichYoungRuler]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

I believe Pogi's point is that some folks (apparently including RYR) believe X (where X = "We are saved if we keep in memory (i.e. believe) that Jesus Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again the third day").

Pogi apparently believes in X + Y (where Y = something like "Faith/belief includes works/obedience").

Pogi, then, posits that adding Y to X does not negate X (i.e. "It doesn't matter what we do beyond that according to that passage").  

Pogi, is that a fair summary of your position?

By way of analogy:

Bob visits a doctor, who tells him he needs to exercise 30 minutes three times a week in order to improve his health.  Bob begins doing so, finds that he enjoys it, and so starts exercising for 45 minutes four times a week.  Is Bob contravening the doctor's advice by doing more that what he instructed Bob to do?  Of course not.  Would it make sense, then, for some stranger to come along and excoriate Bob for his efforts?  "Hey!  What are you playing at?  Your doctor told you to exercise three times a week.  Where do you get off exercising more than that?"

Bob might respond: "First, you are not my doctor, and I didn't ask you to intrude into my relationship with him.  Second, I am following my doctor's advice.  Third, my exercise routine is neither extreme nor dangerous, and is in perfect harmony with my doctor's advice.  Fourth, even if the extra exercise I am doing is unnecessary to improve my health, it's not injuring me or anyone else, and is making me happy."

Thanks,

-Smac

The gospel isn't just a piece of advice.  

X≠X+Y unless Y = 0, but in this case Y equals a lifetime of trying to keep the commandments and that certainly is NOT zero.

A gospel that requires that one must keep the commandments in order to be saved one day is a gospel that denies that Jesus Christ alone can make one worthy to dwell in God's presence.

How do you explain the disparity between "the gospel" as seen in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 (KJV or JST) and the "the gospel" as defined by keeping the commandments?

[RichYoungRuler]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

I didn’t have to, as I knew you would see it in the following verses (13-17), which convey the same gospel as 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. Enduring to the end is accomplished by keeping the gospel in memory, and Jesus describes how to keep this in memory in 3 Nephi 18. Some key words and phrases involving keeping the gospel in memory are: remembrance, remember, keep, keep these sayings, watch and pray always, witness, come unto me, feel and see, etc.

Do you believe that doing something is fundamentally different than thinking something?

[Amulek]

11 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said:

A gospel that requires that one must keep the commandments in order to be saved one day is a gospel that denies that Jesus Christ alone can make one worthy to dwell in God's presence.

A gospel that pretends to ignore the fact that sin is antithetical to faith, is one that is bound to lead it's adherents carefully down to hell. 

 

[RichYoungRuler]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

I'm okay with that.  The Atonement covers errors/sins/transgressions committed in ignorance.  See Mosiah 3:11 ("For behold, and also his blood atoneth for the sins of those ... who have ignorantly sinned.")

Do you think an "I didn't know the law" argument would work in a court of law?  Try telling a police officer "I didn't know the speed limit" and see if it works. 

D&C 131:6 "It is impossible for a man to be ^asaved in ^bignorance." 

[RichYoungRuler]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

To love God is the "first and great commandment."  And obedience to God's commandments is an inherent feature of that love ("If ye love me...").

So obedience is important for me.  And for God too, I think.  "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."  (John 7:21).

I don't think we get to just make things up as we go along.  I think the Lord has given us commandments.  And He wants us to obey them.  I really don't think He wants us to evade or ignore those commandments, or use sophistry to rationalize disobedience to them.

I don't think you'll ever be able to persuade me that obedience to God is an only-obey-when-you-are-in-the-mood-and-otherwise-you-can-do-whatever-you-want-because-OSAS kind of thing.  That is the defect that, in my view, renders OSAS so unacceptable to me.

How can you claim that you are doing something out of love for someone who has the power to grant you access to a kingdom of unimaginable value?

I think the real reason you attempt (in vain) to "keep the commandments" is that you just want something for yourself.

Please, prove me wrong.

[smac97]

14 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said:

The gospel isn't just a piece of advice.  

I quite agree.  It's strange, then, for you to discount the need for obedience to God.

14 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said:

X≠X+Y unless Y = 0, but in this case Y equals a lifetime of trying to keep the commandments and that certainly is NOT zero.

With respect, I disagree.  The question is whether X becomes less than X when Y is added to it.  I submit that it is not the case.

14 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said:

A gospel that requires that one must keep the commandments in order to be saved one day is a gospel that denies that Jesus Christ alone can make one worthy to dwell in God's presence.

No, it's not.  If Jesus Christ says "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven"  (John 7:21), I'll go with that rather than ... whatever is is you are trying to say.

14 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said:

How do you explain the disparity between "the gospel" as seen in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 (KJV or JST) and the "the gospel" as defined by keeping the commandments?

I reject the premise (that such a disparity exists).  

Thanks,

-Smac

[Ahab]

2 hours ago, RichYoungRuler said:

Commandment keepers think they are keeping the commandments, but in reality they don't even know all of the commandments...much less keep them.

Suppose you are found guilty in a court of law of perjury (lying), stealing, murder, blasphemy, rape and many, many more crimes.  Do you think claiming how good you have been would save you and the judge would be willing to overlook all of the times you broke the law?  Nonsense!  

The beauty of "the gospel" of Jesus Christ is that He will pay that penalty for anyone willing to believe that His works are sufficient.

"Keep in memory" does not mean "keep the commandments". 

What are you talking about now?  I thought we had reached an agreement on this and understood each other.  Now it appears you don't think that obeying our Lord is important.

Answer me this:  Should you do what Jesus Christ commands you to do?

The question is not: Will obeying our Lord's commands save you.  That is not the question for those who understand that it is by faith and grace that we are saved.  The question is: Should you obey our Lord's commandments?

Yes or No.  There is no other option.

[smac97]

6 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said:

Quote

I'm okay with that.  The Atonement covers errors/sins/transgressions committed in ignorance.  See Mosiah 3:11 ("For behold, and also his blood atoneth for the sins of those ... who have ignorantly sinned.")

Do you think an "I didn't know the law" argument would work in a court of law? 

That depends on the law, I suppose.  It could certainly be a factor.

In any event, the scope of the Atonement is not properly characterized by comparing it to technical legal arguments like this.

6 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said:

D&C 131:6 "It is impossible for a man to be ^asaved in ^bignorance." 

You seem to be equivocating.  I was speaking about people sinning in ignorance.  The above passage pertains to being saved in ignorance.  The two types of ignorance are quite different.

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

11 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said:

Quote

To love God is the "first and great commandment."  And obedience to God's commandments is an inherent feature of that love ("If ye love me...").

So obedience is important for me.  And for God too, I think.  "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."  (John 7:21).

I don't think we get to just make things up as we go along.  I think the Lord has given us commandments.  And He wants us to obey them.  I really don't think He wants us to evade or ignore those commandments, or use sophistry to rationalize disobedience to them.

I don't think you'll ever be able to persuade me that obedience to God is an only-obey-when-you-are-in-the-mood-and-otherwise-you-can-do-whatever-you-want-because-OSAS kind of thing.  That is the defect that, in my view, renders OSAS so unacceptable to me.

How can you claim that you are doing something out of love for someone who has the power to grant you access to a kingdom of unimaginable value?

I don't know what this means.

Quote

I think the real reason you attempt (in vain) to "keep the commandments" is that you just want something for yourself.

I have no interest in indulging your armchair psychoanalysis.

Quote

Please, prove me wrong.

No, thanks.  

-Smac

Edited March 13, 2020 by smac97

[Maidservant]

3 hours ago, RichYoungRuler said:

If Paul didn't give the gospel, what does "I declare unto you the gospel" mean?

He tells us very clearly what this "gospel" is and warns those who received it that there would be angels from heaven that would come and try to change it.

How much more clear and easy can this be?

I mean that Jesus Christ gave the gospel. Otherwise, there is no reason to listen to someone else that is explaining the gospel.

When Jesus spoke, he said that he had a message. The fact that we call it the gospel now is the imperfect transmission of centuries of thought through English and several cultural paradigms.

Edited March 13, 2020 by Maidservant

[RichYoungRuler]

52 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I quite agree.  It's strange, then, for you to discount the need for obedience to God.

When did I discount the need for obedience to God?  The difference is whose obedience is the only obedience God will accept.

56 minutes ago, smac97 said:

With respect, I disagree.  The question is whether X becomes less than X when Y is added to it.  I submit that it is not the case.

So if X+Y=X, what then is Y in your view? 

58 minutes ago, smac97 said:

No, it's not.  If Jesus Christ says "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven"  (John 7:21), I'll go with that rather than ... whatever is is you are trying to say.

Jesus Christ tells us very clearly "this is the will of Him that sent me..."  

What is it?

[Calm]

1 hour ago, RichYoungRuler said:

How can you claim that you are doing something out of love for someone who has the power to grant you access to a kingdom of unimaginable value?

You may be someone who is only capable of being motivated by selfish reasons and thus it is impossible for you to comprehend that others are capable of having a pure motivation of love even when understanding God desires them to share in his kingdom.  With little to go on, that seems the most likely reason for your blindness on this matter, but I am open to other possibilities.  But there are people who would act the same without the promise of a Kingdom because the gift of love is meaningful in and of itself to them.  All they want to experience is a chance to express love towards the one who loves them so completely, so perfectly.

 But others have known that experience for themselves and seeing it in others.  And from what I have seen, that knowledge only increases the love and desire to do God's Will.  Having experienced others' selfless sacrifices out of love (such as my husband cheerfully putting at the top of his list of things to do each week going to visit not his mom, but mine and there going above and beyond making sure her needs are meant so I can spend the day in bed sleeping as needed), the increase in love I feel makes me wants to jump out of bed and go looking for people to help...ah well, I write here instead.   

I have seen this increasing selfless love so often in my wards and friends and extended families.  My dad was very generous with his efforts and resources, he was the one the widows and single sisters called for help.  He was the one that stopped by a friend's home to take the soon to be missionary shopping for a suit when their own father was not available...I only learned of this decades later when my husband happened to meet the now middle aged man at a meeting and somehow my dad's name came up.  It had made such an impact on the young man that his older version was eager to convey his gratitude even if only to a relative and not my dad himself.  Otoh, my dad preferred to use gift giving as an opportunity for learning with his kids and grandkids, so we got contracts with many of our gifts (piano from him for my kids meant they had to practice so much or in a year we would have to pay him for half).  

Reality was, the fines were never required even if the contract was 'broken', but that mindset of my dad has led me to be very aware of how different people approach service for others, so I don't just assume pure motivations of love.  Instead I look for hidden rewards of ego boosting, networking benefits, manipulation, etc.  But I have found there are a lot of people who do service out of pure love.  You can see it in their faces and hear it in their voices when they are speaking of their experience, you can see the same in many of those who are helped.  It is a real joy to observe and I am grateful for a faith and a community that provides us with so many chances to learn how to give and take with love and teaches us to seek out God's love and experience it and learn how to better understand his love and sacrifice through our own obedience of his laws and of the inspirations he gives us and through our own sacrifices to align our wills with his Will out of love.

Hopefully someday those who currently can't seem to see things without thinking 'what is in it for me' will eventually find that joy in expressing love to our God which needs no reward to make it worthwhile.  It is a sweet experience.

Edited March 13, 2020 by Calm

[RichYoungRuler]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

Answer me this:  Should you do what Jesus Christ commands you to do?

The question is not: Will obeying our Lord's commands save you.  That is not the question for those who understand that it is by faith and grace that we are saved.  The question is: Should you obey our Lord's commandments?

Yes or No.  There is no other option.

Those who have chosen to believe His gospel and are thereby adopted into His family are they that should obey His commandments because they love Him.

What good would trying to do what Jesus Christ commands if He has never known you?

"^aAnd then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: ^bdepart from me, ye that work ^ciniquity."

 

[smac97]

20 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said:

Quote

I quite agree.  It's strange, then, for you to discount the need for obedience to God.

When did I discount the need for obedience to God?

That seems to be the crux of everything you are saying.

Quote

The difference is whose obedience is the only obedience God will accept.

I don't know what this means.

Quote

Quote

With respect, I disagree.  The question is whether X becomes less than X when Y is added to it.  I submit that it is not the case.

So if X+Y=X, what then is Y in your view? 

As I said before:

Quote

I believe Pogi's point is that some folks (apparently including RYR) believe X (where X = "We are saved if we keep in memory (i.e. believe) that Jesus Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again the third day").

Pogi apparently believes in X + Y (where Y = something like "Faith/belief includes works/obedience").

So I guess "X" refers to faith, and "Y" refers to faith plus obedience to the commandments (repentance, good works, etc.).

Quote

Quote

No, it's not.  If Jesus Christ says "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven"  (John 7:21), I'll go with that rather than ... whatever is is you are trying to say.

Jesus Christ tells us very clearly "this is the will of Him that sent me..."  

What is it?

John 6:40 - "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

So...belief.  Faith.

What are your thoughts about John 7:21? 

It would be nice to have you interact with the responses you are eliciting.  You aren't doing much of that.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited March 13, 2020 by smac97

[RichYoungRuler]

55 minutes ago, Maidservant said:

I mean that Jesus Christ gave the gospel. Otherwise, there is no reason to listen to someone else that is explaining the gospel.

When Jesus spoke, he said that he had a message. The fact that we call it the gospel now is the imperfect transmission of centuries of thought through English and several cultural paradigms.

If what we're calling "the gospel" really is an "imperfect transmission of centuries..." then why didn't Joseph Smith's translation correct "the gospel" in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4?   No change from the KJV which means "the gospel by which ye are saved" in those verses is correct.

Right?

[CV75]

1 hour ago, RichYoungRuler said:

Do you believe that doing something is fundamentally different than thinking something?

Yes and no; it depends. Exactly what do you mean?

[smac97]

12 minutes ago, RichYoungRuler said:

If what we're calling "the gospel" really is an "imperfect transmission of centuries..." then why didn't Joseph Smith's translation correct "the gospel" in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4?  

Hard to say, really.  Joseph Smith didn't finish his "translation."

Quote

No change from the KJV which means "the gospel by which ye are saved" in those verses is correct.

Right?

Not necessarily.  But FWIW, I'm fine with "the gospel by which ye are saved."

I can't help but wonder if your jumping from this passage to that one, and then to another, is an exercise in prooftexting and eisegesis.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited March 13, 2020 by smac97

[RichYoungRuler]

20 minutes ago, Calm said:

You may be someone who is only capable of being motivated by selfish reasons and thus it is impossible for you to comprehend that others are capable of having a pure motivation of love even when understanding God desires them to share in his kingdom.  With little to go on, that seems the most likely reason for your blindness on this matter, but I am open to other possibilities.  But there are people who would act the same without the promise of a Kingdom because the gift of love is meaningful in and of itself to them.  All they want to experience is a chance to express love towards the one who loves them so completely, so perfectly.

 But others have known that experience for themselves and seeing it in others.  And from what I have seen, that knowledge only increases the love and desire to do God's Will.  Having experienced others' selfless sacrifices out of love (such as my husband cheerfully putting at the top of his list of things to do each week going to visit not his mom, but mine and there going above and beyond making sure her needs are meant so I can spend the day in bed sleeping as needed), the increase in love I feel makes me wants to jump out of bed and go looking for people to help...ah well, I write here instead.   

I have seen this increasing selfless love so often in my wards and friends and extended families.  My dad was very generous with his efforts and resources, he was the one the widows and single sisters called for help.  He was the one that stopped by a friend's home to take the soon to be missionary shopping for a suit when their own father was not available...I only learned of this decades later when my husband happened to meet the now middle aged man at a meeting and somehow my dad's name came up.  It had made such an impact on the young man that his older version was eager to convey his gratitude even if only to a relative and not my dad himself.  Otoh, my dad preferred to use gift giving as an opportunity for learning with his kids and grandkids, so we got contracts with many of our gifts (piano from him for my kids meant they had to practice so much or in a year we would have to pay him for half).  

Reality was, the fines were never required even if the contract was 'broken', but that mindset of my dad has led me to be very aware of how different people approach service for others, so I don't just assume pure motivations of love.  Instead I look for hidden rewards of ego boosting, networking benefits, manipulation, etc.  But I have found there are a lot of people who do service out of pure love.  You can see it in their faces and hear it in their voices when they are speaking of their experience, you can see the same in many of those who are helped.  It is a real joy to observe and I am grateful for a faith and a community that provides us with so many chances to learn how to give and take with love and teaches us to seek out God's love and experience it and learn how to better understand his love and sacrifice through our own obedience of his laws and of the inspirations he gives us and through our own sacrifices to align our wills with his Will out of love.

Hopefully someday those who currently can't seem to see things without thinking 'what is in it for me' will eventually find that joy in expressing love to our God which needs no reward to make it worthwhile.  It is a sweet experience.

Do you hope that Heavenly Father will allow you to access His kingdom?

"Pure love" is love that wants nothing in return, like your husband's love for the person who gave him all including life.  Those who give "pure love" already have all that can possibly be given.