MiserereNobis Posted December 9, 2019 Posted December 9, 2019 12 minutes ago, Ahab said: Give up any hope you have of being able to get me to believe that something isn't supposed to make sense. Do you reject modern physics? 1
Calm Posted December 9, 2019 Posted December 9, 2019 7 minutes ago, Ahab said: Give up any hope you have of being able to get me to believe that something isn't supposed to make sense. You believe we are not supposed to be able to understand God, either. Believing in things that don't make sense seems to be no problem for you. It is not that something true doesn’t make sense ever, it is that it appears to be nonsense to those who don’t have sufficient knowledge to understand. For example, seeing a handsome, rich, charming woman/man in love with an ugly, grumpy, inept man/woman isn’t ‘common sense’ in our day to day experience, but it may make actual sense if one learns the ugly partner has been in a nasty accident and their relationship continues because it is founded on a deep love between them. Faulty Assumptions appear to make sense while truth doesn’t when we don’t know enough. If we refuse to accept the possibility that our common sense may be wrong, if we refuse to keep our minds open to learning more because we are so certain we are right, that is likely the end to any eternal progression. 2
Ahab Posted December 9, 2019 Posted December 9, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: Do you reject modern physics? Real physics, as in true reality, or what reality is imagined by some people to be? Edited December 9, 2019 by Ahab
MiserereNobis Posted December 9, 2019 Posted December 9, 2019 Just now, Ahab said: Real physics, as in true reality, or what reality is imagined by some people to be? I mean the scientific field of physics as studied by physicists with Ph.D's at research labs and universities. Do you reject that field of study?
The Nehor Posted December 9, 2019 Posted December 9, 2019 7 minutes ago, Ahab said: For example? I'd love to hear just one example of something like that. There are no good object examples because it is outside general human experiences. There are analogies but they are all flawed. 2
Ahab Posted December 9, 2019 Posted December 9, 2019 2 minutes ago, Calm said: It is not that something true doesn’t make sense ever, it is that it appears to be nonsense to those who don’t have sufficient knowledge to understand. For example, seeing a handsome, rich, charming woman/man in love with an ugly, grumpy, inept man/woman isn’t ‘common sense’ in our day to day experience, but it may make actual sense if one learns the ugly partner has been in a nasty accident and their relationship continues because it is founded on a deep love between them. Faulty Assumptions appear to make sense while truth doesn’t when we don’t know enough. If we refuse to accept the possibility that our common sense may be wrong, if we refuse to keep our minds open to learning more because we are so certain we are right, that is likely the end to any eternal progression. I'm open to believing anything should make sense in any way there is to see that it makes sense. I'm just not open to the belief that things aren't supposed to make sense or that it shouldn't matter whether or not something makes sense before we choose to believe it.
pogi Posted December 9, 2019 Posted December 9, 2019 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Ahab said: Give up any hope you have of being able to get me to believe that something isn't supposed to make sense. What “makes sense” is relative isn’t it? Just because it doesn’t make sense to you doesn’t mean it doesn’t make sense to God. What makes you think everything is supposed to make intuitive sense to us mortal, fallible, and limited humans? Just because something doesn’t make sense to you doesn’t mean it’s not true. Edited December 9, 2019 by pogi
Ahab Posted December 9, 2019 Posted December 9, 2019 6 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: I mean the scientific field of physics as studied by physicists with Ph.D's at research labs and universities. Do you reject that field of study? That field of study? No I don't reject the fact that those people study concepts associated with physics. I don't believe everything they study is based on a correct understanding of reality, though. What they call "theoretical" physics is sometimes imaginary rather than reality.
Ahab Posted December 9, 2019 Posted December 9, 2019 2 minutes ago, pogi said: What “makes sense” is relative isn’t it? Just because it doesn’t make sense to you doesn’t mean it doesn’t make sense to God. The question is whether or not something makes any sense. Tell me about something and then I'll tell you if something makes any sense to me and whether or not I believe it. 2 minutes ago, pogi said: What makes you think everything is supposed to make intuitive sense to us mortal, fallible, and limited humans? Because if it doesn't make any sense to us it is something we would call nonsense. Do you believe you should believe in any nonsense? Or do you believe something should make sense to you before you feel you should believe it?
pogi Posted December 9, 2019 Posted December 9, 2019 11 minutes ago, Ahab said: I'm just not open to the belief...that it shouldn't matter whether or not something makes sense before we choose to believe it. You take nothing on faith then? Everything in the gospel makes perfect sense to you?
Ahab Posted December 9, 2019 Posted December 9, 2019 Just now, pogi said: You take nothing on faith then? Faith is to feel certain that something is true. Just now, pogi said: Everything in the gospel makes perfect sense to you? Yes.
MiserereNobis Posted December 9, 2019 Posted December 9, 2019 3 minutes ago, Ahab said: Quote Everything in the gospel makes perfect sense to you? Yes. 🙄 1
Ahab Posted December 9, 2019 Posted December 9, 2019 3 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: 🙄 Remember, you are Catholic. You may may have different beliefs about what the gospel is than we do.
pogi Posted December 9, 2019 Posted December 9, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Ahab said: Remember, you are Catholic. You may may have different beliefs about what the gospel is than we do. I'm not Catholic, and yet...🙄 Edited December 9, 2019 by pogi
Calm Posted December 9, 2019 Posted December 9, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Ahab said: In a universe that didn't end as long as you went in one or a few directions there would still be ends if you didn't go in those directions. Is a small universe (two dimensional formed into a sphere, so up or down do not exist) shaped like a ball infinite in your view? Or is it finite with infinite movement in all directions that exists on its surface? Start at any point on the surface of the ball and you can travel infinitely in any direction. Where are the ends? Edited December 9, 2019 by Calm
MiserereNobis Posted December 9, 2019 Posted December 9, 2019 14 minutes ago, Ahab said: Remember, you are Catholic. You may may have different beliefs about what the gospel is than we do. It's a pretty tiny gospel you have if your imperfect finite mind can at this moment fully comprehend the entirety of it. What's your take on 1 Corinthians 13:12? Quote For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. How does it make perfect sense to you when it didn't make perfect sense to the Apostle Paul? 1
pogi Posted December 9, 2019 Posted December 9, 2019 (edited) 39 minutes ago, Ahab said: Faith is to feel certain that something is true. CFR. I don't "feel certain" about almost anything. Am I faithless? Actually, certainty leads to the "dormancy" or end of faith. Quote And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant; and this because you know... Feeling "certain" and having conviction of hope are two very different things. Quote And now as I said concerning faith—faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true... Now, as I said concerning faith—that it was not a perfect knowledge—even so it is with my words. Ye cannot know of their surety at first, unto perfection, any more than faith is a perfect knowledge. Edited December 9, 2019 by pogi 1
Ahab Posted December 9, 2019 Posted December 9, 2019 25 minutes ago, pogi said: I'm not Catholic, and yet...🙄 and yet you should at least be able to hope that somehow it makes sense.
Ahab Posted December 9, 2019 Posted December 9, 2019 26 minutes ago, Calm said: Is a small universe (two dimensional formed into a sphere, so up or down do not exist) shaped like a ball infinite in your view? Or is it finite with infinite movement in all directions that exists on its surface? Start at any point on the surface of the ball and you can travel infinitely in any direction. Where are the ends? The universe as I see it in my perspective goes on in every direction forever. A ball has edges and therefore would not be infinite even if you kept going around it in circles forever. The ends/edges of the ball are what give it its shape. The universe as I see it has no shape. It goes on forever in every direction.
Ahab Posted December 9, 2019 Posted December 9, 2019 21 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: It's a pretty tiny gospel you have if your imperfect finite mind can at this moment fully comprehend the entirety of it. Says someone who thinks it isn't supposed to make sense. 21 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: What's your take on 1 Corinthians 13:12? How does it make perfect sense to you when it didn't make perfect sense to the Apostle Paul? It made sense to Paul. Whether we view it through a glass darkly or comprehend every tiny detail about it, it makes sense and we can see that it makes sense. Otherwise the people who think it is nonsense would be correct.
Ahab Posted December 9, 2019 Posted December 9, 2019 23 minutes ago, pogi said: CFR. Look in our Study Helps. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/faith?lang=eng 23 minutes ago, pogi said: I don't "feel certain" about almost anything. Am I faithless? If that were true you would be. 23 minutes ago, pogi said: Actually, certainty leads to the "dormancy" or end of faith. When we become absolutely certain about something we say that we know it. Until then we go through various levels of certainty, if we are certain at all, from what I call "not really sure" to "kind of sure" to "really sure" and then finally, hopefully, "absolutely sure" about it.. 23 minutes ago, pogi said: Feeling "certain" and having conviction of hope are two very different things. Not really.
pogi Posted December 9, 2019 Posted December 9, 2019 15 minutes ago, Ahab said: and yet you should at least be able to hope that somehow it makes sense. Oh yes, I am full of hope. But I absolutely believe and hope and have convictions, and act according to those conviction (a.k.a faith) in things that don't make sense to me yet - the atonement being a central example. 1
Ahab Posted December 9, 2019 Posted December 9, 2019 2 minutes ago, pogi said: Oh yes, I am full of hope. But I absolutely believe and hope and have convictions, and act according to those conviction (a.k.a faith) in things that don't make sense to me yet - the atonement being a central example. I hope you are at least trying to understand it. It is understandable even while being awe inspiring and totally wonderful.
pogi Posted December 9, 2019 Posted December 9, 2019 5 minutes ago, Ahab said: Look in our Study Helps. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/faith?lang=eng I searched for the word "certain", it is not there. CFR remains unanswered. It uses the word "confidence" which is very different. 6 minutes ago, Ahab said: Until then we go through various levels of certainty, if we are certain at all, from what I call "not really sure" to "kind of sure" to "really sure" and then finally, hopefully, "absolutely sure" about it.. Wait, you equate "not really being sure" with "certainty"? Who speaks that way? Judge: "Are you certain that you saw John kill James?" Witness: "Yes" Judge: "Then I find the defendant guilty" Witness: "Wait, why? I said I wasn't really sure..." OK, I guess according to your totally inappropriate and absurd use of the word "certainty", I am certain in just about everything it seems... You have murdered that word.
pogi Posted December 9, 2019 Posted December 9, 2019 14 minutes ago, Ahab said: I hope you are at least trying to understand it. Quote “Though these scriptural bases suggest the suffering of the atoning Christ was a combination of bodily experience, perfect empathy, and God’s abandonment, the essential mystery of the atonement remains for Mormons just that—a mystery. This point deserves emphasis: no Mormon presumes to understand the doctrine of atonement in its entirety.” https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/shared/english/military/2018/LDS-Guide-for-Healing-Moral-Injury.pdf?lang=eng Correction, "no Mormon [except for Ahab] presumes to understand that doctrine in its entirety." 1
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