Religions and Babies

[Meadowchik]

11 hours ago, smac97 said:

But isn't the point of your OP that "exponential growth forever" isn't happening?  That fertility rates are dropping?  Not because of Malthusian/Ehrlichian thinking has been validated, and not because of governmental interventionism, but because of other factors (lower mortality rates, advancements in technology, etc.)?

Thanks,

-Smac

The point of the post is the overall data, yes, and not to verify that exponential growth forever is happening or is possible within a scientific framework. 

It looks to me that Ahab is conflating his belief about the afterlife unnecessarily. As I said, it's probably a good thing to be aware of where (scientific) knowledge ends and faith begins. 

[Meadowchik]

9 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Yeah, but my speculation is that God has engineered this universe in such a way as to make colonization outside of this solar system something that can't happen.  Keep in mind that I am a science fiction fan, and would-be novelist. My dream would be to be one of the first colonists on Mars.  But I'm too old and fat to do this now.  

You and I have a lot in common. I have been working in my plot and characters little by little for about four years now.

Anyways, it should go without saying that resurrection, including a resurrected Earth, would defy known scientific law. So it seems strange to me that the other poster would try to fit afterlife populations within the scientific framework as we know it. Awareness of the apparent obstacles identifies where faith is required, imo.

 

[Meadowchik]

18 hours ago, Stargazer said:

It's a demonstrable fact that as prosperity increases so the fertility rate decreases.  And probably for the reason you give : "the human need to reproduce is met at lower fertility rates".  I think a lot of people believe that prosperity makes us realize that fewer children will cost us less, and so attribute it to greed. I disagree. We are not always entirely driven by conscious decisions, but are also influenced by unconscious factors as well. Some might say that this is genetic, that evolution has programmed us to increase progeny in bad times, so as to maximize surviving offspring. I say of course that's true, but because God programmed us that way, and for the same reason.

God's pretty smart; He knows what works.  He also very artfully makes it look like He had nothing to do with it.

Oh, and by the way, if your religion commands you to make more babies, regardless of economic conditions, then you will.  But you may still make fewer than you absolutely could have.

I first came across Rosling's presentations several years ago and they were a refreshing update on the outdated notions I had long heard about overpopulation.

I am one of those people who had more babies because my "religion commanded" me.

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

I first came across Rosling's presentations several years ago and they were a refreshing update on the outdated notions I had long heard about overpopulation.

I am one of those people who had more babies because my "religion commanded" me.

When I married my late wife back in 1980 she already had seven children, ages 18 months to 20 years.  I told her before we married that I considered she had done her bit for God and Country, and I wouldn't expect her to have any children with me.  She got rather frosty with me about that!  She said that she wouldn't feel right about avoiding having children with me.  I am pretty sure she didn't feel "commanded" about it; and she never breathed one word of resentment in the 35 years we were married.  I think she would have had a large number even if she had never joined the church. She already had four by the time she was baptized.

It's a good day to think of her. Today would have been her 79th birthday.  As happy as I am with my new wife, here in the UK, I still miss my Waltraut.  A good German name for a good German woman.

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

You and I have a lot in common. I have been working in my plot and characters little by little for about four years now.

So cool!  If I recall correctly (doubtful), you're a Nederlander.  Are you writing in your native language?  How far off is it before sending it out to pubishers?  Mine has turned into a trilogy.  I am about 6800 words into the first book, but I've had to revamp the setting and plot, so I'm at a pause for the moment.  I've been working on mine for about the same length of time as you have been on yours. 

1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

Anyways, it should go without saying that resurrection, including a resurrected Earth, would defy known scientific law. So it seems strange to me that the other poster would try to fit afterlife populations within the scientific framework as we know it. Awareness of the apparent obstacles identifies where faith is required, imo.

It's sometimes hard to consider all the implications of eternity. Some believers (not just LDS) have a hard time imagining eternal life as anything more than a life pretty much like this one, but without death, disease and having to go to work every day at the office (or quarry).  As J.B.S. Haldane once said, however, "Not only is the universe stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we can imagine."  Those of us lacking sufficiently wild imaginations are going to be very surprised.

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

No, it is not. CFR that the universe is infinite with infinite resources.

Now look what you have done. The multiverses will come out.  

[Meadowchik]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

When I married my late wife back in 1980 she already had seven children, ages 18 months to 20 years.  I told her before we married that I considered she had done her bit for God and Country, and I wouldn't expect her to have any children with me.  She got rather frosty with me about that!  She said that she wouldn't feel right about avoiding having children with me.  I am pretty sure she didn't feel "commanded" about it; and she never breathed one word of resentment in the 35 years we were married.  I think she would have had a large number even if she had never joined the church. She already had four by the time she was baptized.

It's a good day to think of her. Today would have been her 79th birthday.  As happy as I am with my new wife, here in the UK, I still miss my Waltraut.  A good German name for a good German woman.

Well, yes, I can see her being frosty at your ( even well-intended) attempt to tell her where God's commands stop or start for her. Of course I understand and appreciate your acknowledgement of what she'd already done. I appreciate that myself from people, too. But my choices were out of the belief of what God wanted, not of what other observers thought. Of course, that's not to be confused with what my husband felt himself about our joint venture of having children.

 

Edited December 6, 2019 by Meadowchik

[Meadowchik]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

So cool!  If I recall correctly (doubtful), you're a Nederlander.  Are you writing in your native language?  How far off is it before sending it out to pubishers?  Mine has turned into a trilogy.  I am about 6800 words into the first book, but I've had to revamp the setting and plot, so I'm at a pause for the moment.  I've been working on mine for about the same length of time as you have been on yours. 

It's sometimes hard to consider all the implications of eternity. Some believers (not just LDS) have a hard time imagining eternal life as anything more than a life pretty much like this one, but without death, disease and having to go to work every day at the office (or quarry).  As J.B.S. Haldane once said, however, "Not only is the universe stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we can imagine."  Those of us lacking sufficiently wild imaginations are going to be very surprised.

I'm just an American. But I've lived in Switzerland, France, and now the UK and mentioned those places over the years so I imagine that can create a confusing picture!

I've been able to write tiny additions recently though I am busier than usual with exams. Turns out that the brain needs a break and writing is a welcome respite from abstract mathematical objects! 

My all-time favourite fantasy would be to zoom everywhere in space and time just to see. Imagine watching elements first transforming into living things, or histories hidden deep under jungle canopies. Or tardigrades hitching a ride on a meteor.

Edited December 6, 2019 by Meadowchik

[smac97]

5 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

On mobile there is atleast one imbedded quote in yours that only shows up two characters per line. It's a bit much.

Ah.  I had not realized that.  I'll keep that in mind in the future.

Thanks,

-Smac

[CV75]

On 12/5/2019 at 8:47 AM, Meadowchik said:

Religion and fertility rates: fertility rates are falling globally, even among the very religious. The most highly-correllated factor to high fertility rates is high infant mortality rates: women who are accostumed to low survival rates for their babies will tend to have more babies.

What factors drive a woman to have more babies after being accustomed to losing so many, rather than giving up out of discouragement and exhaustion? In other words, what deeper forces and motivations might impel her irrespective of health and prosperity? i understand that poor people may feel they haven't the luxury to give up, but on the other hand, the drive for self-preservation might redirect their energies to a less selfless endeavor.

[Meadowchik]

7 minutes ago, CV75 said:

What factors drive a woman to have more babies after being accustomed to losing so many, rather than giving up out of discouragement and exhaustion? In other words, what deeper forces and motivations might impel her irrespective of health and prosperity? i understand that poor people may feel they haven't the luxury to give up, but on the other hand, the drive for self-preservation might redirect their energies to a less selfless endeavor.

I would imagine that the same factors that drive people to want children in the first place also make them continue despite the tragedy of loss. In my personal observation, sometimes a baby after a loss takes on even more meaning.

[CV75]

51 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

I would imagine that the same factors that drive people to want children in the first place also make them continue despite the tragedy of loss. In my personal observation, sometimes a baby after a loss takes on even more meaning.

This is why I brought it up; what are those factors that provide this drive despite the economy, healthcare and other policies and systems, religion or personal tragedy and loss? People do find meaning through sex and childbearing, and social structures generally support their quest, but is the meaning found in having a baby after a loss inversely proportional to the robustness of the social system?

[Meadowchik]

17 minutes ago, CV75 said:

This is why I brought it up; what are those factors that provide this drive despite the economy, healthcare and other policies and systems, religion or personal tragedy and loss? People do find meaning through sex and childbearing, and social structures generally support their quest, but is the meaning found in having a baby after a loss inversely proportional to the robustness of the social system?

You mean that, does the existential urgency in their environment impact them? Is a woman who has lost mutliple babies in France less likely to try more than a woman in Algeria?

I don't know, but my guess is that, yes, a woman with that added survival urgency might be more likely to continue trying. 

[Ahab]

9 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

No, it is not. CFR that the universe is infinite with infinite resources.

I know it is through faith I have received from God.  You can disagree with me and disagree with what I say God has told me, but you can't refute the fact the universe is infinite or that God told me it is so now you are trying to get me to prove that God told me what he told me.

Sorry, I can't give you that kind of evidence.  God has to give it to you, personally, as direct testimony to you, otherwise there is no way you will ever know that is what God has told me, or that God knows that it truly is.  Reason can help to point you in the right direction, though.

Do you sincerely believe there is something out there at the edge of space that prevents space from going on forever?  Or that beyond a certain point in space there is nothing out there but empty space?  Reason alone can help  you to know the universe is truly infinite.

[Meadowchik]

17 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I know it is through faith I have received from God.  You can disagree with me and disagree with what I say God has told me, but you can't refute the fact the universe is infinite or that God told me it is so now you are trying to get me to prove that God told me what he told me.

Sorry, I can't give you that kind of evidence.  God has to give it to you, personally, as direct testimony to you, otherwise there is no way you will ever know that is what God has told me, or that God knows that it truly is.  Reason can help to point you in the right direction, though.

Do you sincerely believe there is something out there at the edge of space that prevents space from going on forever?  Or that beyond a certain point in space there is nothing out there but empty space?  Reason alone can help  you to know the universe is truly infinite.

I'm not questioning or challenging your faith, I am just distinguishing between faith and science. As I said, it is not a bad thing to be aware of the their domains. 

[Ahab]

7 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

I'm not questioning or challenging your faith, I am just distinguishing between faith and science. As I said, it is not a bad thing to be aware of the their domains. 

Oh I wholeheartedly agree with that.  What God says should not be considered the same as what scientists say.  Scientists speak for themselves, rather than speaking for God.  That's basically the difference between scientists and prophets of God.  Scientists speak what is referred to as "man's wisdom", limited to only what can be shown with physical evidence, and prophets of God speak with what is referred to as "inspiration from God", where they can share what God knows is the truth.

Everyone should always keep that distinction in mind.

[Stargazer]

19 hours ago, Ahab said:

More stupidity.  Of course it would take more than only a "large" supply of resources to sustain an infinite amount of growth.  It would take an "infinite" supply, not just a "large" supply.  And fortunately, believe it or not, the universe is infinite with infinite resources.

 

19 hours ago, Analytics said:

Your faith in your science fiction fantasies is kind of cute.  

 

9 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

No, it is not. CFR that the universe is infinite with infinite resources.

Oy vey.

Technically, Ahab is wrong about the extent of resources in the Universe.  It is not literally infinite.  Analytics is being incredibly condescending about this 😄 .  As for Meadowchik's CFR, of course the Universe does not have literally infinite resources. However, to the extent we could get to them, we do have figuratively infinite resources.  Once we are able to get to them, we will not lack for anything.

One of the things that maddened me about the recent Marvel superhero arc, where Thanos was trying to get ahold of the Infinity Stones, was the incredibly stupid assertion that he was doing so because of the misery due to lack of resources.  He ends up (spoiler alert!) killing/disintegrating 1/2 of all sentient beings in the universe in order to carry out his "final solution", so there was enough for all.  Utter rot.  This solar system alone contains more resources than human kind could use, even if we increased the earth's population to ten times the number of people we have now.  

As an example, consider space habitats.  Imagine an O'Neil cylinder 1 km in radius and 10 km long.  Build it of solid iron, with 100 meter thick walls.  The mass of iron required for this huge construct would be about 51 million metric tonnes.  Good luck finding that much iron?  No luck needed.  The asteroid Psyche is made of iron with some nickel.  It is so large that you could make 472,000 such habitats.  If you reduce the thickness of the walls to 50 meters, you could make 914,000.  

The trick of course is to ramp up space industry to do this kind of work, but ultimately it could be done.  

Space contains enormous amounts of material with which to make as much as we want.

[Meadowchik]

5 hours ago, Stargazer said:

 

 

Oy vey.

Technically, Ahab is wrong about the extent of resources in the Universe.  It is not literally infinite.  Analytics is being incredibly condescending about this 😄 .  As for Meadowchik's CFR, of course the Universe does not have literally infinite resources. However, to the extent we could get to them, we do have figuratively infinite resources.  Once we are able to get to them, we will not lack for anything.

One of the things that maddened me about the recent Marvel superhero arc, where Thanos was trying to get ahold of the Infinity Stones, was the incredibly stupid assertion that he was doing so because of the misery due to lack of resources.  He ends up (spoiler alert!) killing/disintegrating 1/2 of all sentient beings in the universe in order to carry out his "final solution", so there was enough for all.  Utter rot.  This solar system alone contains more resources than human kind could use, even if we increased the earth's population to ten times the number of people we have now.  

As an example, consider space habitats.  Imagine an O'Neil cylinder 1 km in radius and 10 km long.  Build it of solid iron, with 100 meter thick walls.  The mass of iron required for this huge construct would be about 51 million metric tonnes.  Good luck finding that much iron?  No luck needed.  The asteroid Psyche is made of iron with some nickel.  It is so large that you could make 472,000 such habitats.  If you reduce the thickness of the walls to 50 meters, you could make 914,000.  

The trick of course is to ramp up space industry to do this kind of work, but ultimately it could be done.  

Space contains enormous amounts of material with which to make as much as we want.

That the universe has abundant resources right now is not the question. 

The underlying common sentiment that bothers me, (and this is beyond anything which Ahab said explicitly, so it is not directed at him) is the idea that we can, be it locally or globally, have enormous expectations without much thought to the work and resources which will be required to follow through.  I've seen it prevail in political thought regarding the environment, but also in regard to attitudes in the counseling of married couples to have children. I think it is a fallacy to assume abundance and availability of the resources needed to live. In the grand scheme of things, the result is actual suffering in mortality.  

 

Edited December 6, 2019 by Meadowchik

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

You mean that, does the existential urgency in their environment impact them? Is a woman who has lost mutliple babies in France less likely to try more than a woman in Algeria?

I don't know, but my guess is that, yes, a woman with that added survival urgency might be more likely to continue trying. 

Survival urgency, given the risk of pregnancy and childbirth to the mother's health, well-being and personal economics, would seem, on the surface at least, to favor avoiding them. There seems to be a disproportionate level of self-sacrifice for the questionable long-term benefit for survival urgency to explain the pursuit to generate living children when failure has been the pattern.

[Ahab]

32 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Oy vey.

Technically, Ahab is wrong about the extent of resources in the Universe.  It is not literally infinite.  Analytics is being incredibly condescending about this 😄 .  As for Meadowchik's CFR, of course the Universe does not have literally infinite resources. However, to the extent we could get to them, we do have figuratively infinite resources.  Once we are able to get to them, we will not lack for anything.

The universe having infinite resources and us (our kind of being) being able to get them are 2 different things.  The universe literally does have infinite resources.. infinite stars. infinite planets, infinite nebulae, infinite materials moving around in space in some other ways... even if we can't get to all (with no end to all) that is out there.

I told you I could write a better science fiction story than you.  And I can also write a better true story too.

[Meadowchik]

4 hours ago, CV75 said:

Survival urgency, given the risk of pregnancy and childbirth to the mother's health, well-being and personal economics, would seem, on the surface at least, to favor avoiding them. There seems to be a disproportionate level of self-sacrifice for the questionable long-term benefit for survival urgency to explain the pursuit to generate living children when failure has been the pattern.

It may just be the way we are made.

On the one hand, when human beings starve, we lose fat stores. And when a woman's body fat falls below a certain percentage, fertility can be decreased naturally by the body. Perhaps this biological feature helps increase chances of overall survival by reducing the chances of resource depletion that would be caused by more mouths to feed in a time of famine.

On the other hand, the development of lower infant mortality rates is relatively recent in human history. It has come along with also-lowered child mortality rates and overall higher life expectancy. So, to put it into perspective, for most of human history, infant mortality rates have been much closer to the highest ones now than to the current average.

So that impulse in times of urgency may be the reason we're here at all.

Edited December 6, 2019 by Meadowchik

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

I know it is through faith I have received from God.  You can disagree with me and disagree with what I say God has told me, but you can't refute the fact the universe is infinite or that God told me it is so now you are trying to get me to prove that God told me what he told me.

Sorry, I can't give you that kind of evidence.  God has to give it to you, personally, as direct testimony to you, otherwise there is no way you will ever know that is what God has told me, or that God knows that it truly is.  Reason can help to point you in the right direction, though.

Do you sincerely believe there is something out there at the edge of space that prevents space from going on forever?  Or that beyond a certain point in space there is nothing out there but empty space?  Reason alone can help  you to know the universe is truly infinite.

We were talking about mortality and population resource consumption. Saying the Universe has enough resources is pointless to that discussion because we cannot get at much of anything not already on the planet.

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, Ahab said:

I told you I could write a better science fiction story than you.  And I can also write a better true story too.

Very skeptical.

[Ahab]

1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

We were talking about mortality and population resource consumption. Saying the Universe has enough resources is pointless to that discussion because we cannot get at much of anything not already on the planet.

Someone else said something suggesting we only have this planet to work with, with only so much room or space on this planet, so I then suggested we could go out into space to get access to more space and materials.  Space travel and the colonization of other planets in space is something we (our kind of being) can do... and as some of us (LDS) know, it is something that has already been going on, I believe for forever.

So let's stop talking as if we only have access to what we have here.  Our kind of being should not consider ourselves limited to only what this planet has on it.

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, Ahab said:

The universe having infinite resources and us (our kind of being) being able to get them are 2 different things.  The universe literally does have infinite resources.. infinite stars. infinite planets, infinite nebulae, infinite materials moving around in space in some other ways... even if we can't get to all (with no end to all) that is out there.

I told you I could write a better science fiction story than you.  And I can also write a better true story too.

The general consensus at the moment is that we have no idea whether the universe is finite or infinite or finite but expanding to infinity.