Endowment and Presence of the Father

[Duncan]

25 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

 

Yes, it is.
Whether in this life or the next.

Revelation 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

 

All the second anointing is is moving up your day of judgement to this life,and so here or in the next life it isn't necessary. The day of judgement will happen, here or there and it isn't necessary it happens here. You need judgement for exaltation but that wasn't the question, the question was do you need the 2nd anointing for exaltation and I say no. what does Rev.1:6 have to do with it?  and what does this have to with God's presence

[JLHPROF]

4 hours ago, Duncan said:

All the second anointing is is moving up your day of judgement to this life,and so here or in the next life it isn't necessary. The day of judgement will happen, here or there and it isn't necessary it happens here. You need judgement for exaltation but that wasn't the question, the question was do you need the 2nd anointing for exaltation and I say no. what does Rev.1:6 have to do with it?  and what does this have to with God's presence

The second anointing is ordination to be a King and Priest/Queen and Priestess.

Whether it happens in this life or posthumously it's a necessary ordinance.  It's exactly what Rev 1:6 refers to (and John 13:8, and Mark 14:9 for that matter).

There's a reason Christ is called King of Kings, and it's not political.  As for the presence of the Father, see D&C 84:19-22.  That's not a reference to Elder's quorum. 

As Joseph Smith said when setting up the Relief Society "Said he was going to make of this Society a kingdom of priests and in Enoch’s day— as in Pauls day.

And speaking of men being sent to find a new home "I want every man that goes to be a king and a priest. When he gets on the mountains he may want to talk with his God."

Edited November 22, 2019 by JLHPROF

[Robert F. Smith]

18 hours ago, Metis_LDS said:

Robert are there any Jewish traditions about judgement day that are different from what we know?

According to the late Jewish scholar T. H. Gaster, the 10th of Tishri, Yom Kippur, was the Day of Judgment on an annual as well as final basis (1Q22 IV; on these heavenly assizes see Charlesworth, ed., Old Testament Pseudepigrapha, I:245, on III Enoch, citing Talmud Babli Rosh ha-Shanah 16b-17a).   Other Jews claim that the Judgment takes place every New Year's Day.

See the article on Jewish beliefs about the Latter-days online at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_eschatology .

[Duncan]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

The second anointing is ordination to be a King and Priest/Queen and Priestess.

Whether it happens in this life or posthumously it's a necessary ordinance.  It's exactly what Rev 1:6 refers to (and John 13:8, and Mark 14:9 for that matter).

There's a reason Christ is called King of Kings, and it's not political.  As for the presence of the Father, see D&C 84:19-22.  That's not a reference to Elder's quorum. 

As Joseph Smith said when setting up the Relief Society "Said he was going to make of this Society a kingdom of priests and in Enoch’s day— as in Pauls day.

And speaking of men being sent to find a new home "I want every man that goes to be a king and a priest. When he gets on the mountains he may want to talk with his God."

it isn't necessary, all will be judged some day-why would you be given the second anointing in the next life but before judgement day-which in effect is the same thing? it's like getting your Christmas presents on the 23rd of Dec. well, why not just wait until the 25th? it makes no sense -it isn't necessary to be judged here and now

http://scottwoodward.org/Talks/html/McConkie, Bruce R/McConkieBR_MakeYourCallingAndElectionSure.html

https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Question:_What_is_the_"second_anointing"%3F

[mfbukowski]

On 11/20/2019 at 12:32 PM, Duncan said:

Something i've seen numerous times is the idea that we need the gospel and ordinances to get back to the presence of the God the Father. One quotation I see is from Pres. Young

"Your endowment is to receive all those ordinances in the house of the Lord, which are necessary for you to, after you have departed this life, to enable you to walk back to the presence of the Father"

Discourses of Brigham Young, pg 416

It would appear that only those endowed will get a chance to get back to the presence of the Father. Do you think though that what Pres. Young and others really mean to say is that those who get endowed(in this life or the next) will dwell with God again and go onto Celestial Glory? Won't everyone who ever lived stand in the presence of God the Father to be judged by him with Christ as our advocate? as per D&C 45:3-5. If it really means only those endowed will get back to God the Father then how would we interpret Helaman 14:15-17

15 "For behold, he surely must die that salvation may come; yea, it behooveth him and becometh expedient that he dieth, to bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, that thereby men may be brought into the presence of the Lord.

16 Yea, behold, this death bringeth to pass the resurrection, and redeemeth all mankind from the first death—that spiritual death; for all mankind, by the fall of Adam being cut off from the presence of the Lord, are considered as dead, both as to things temporal and to things spiritual.

17 But behold, the resurrection of Christ redeemeth mankind, yea, even all mankind, and bringeth them back into the presence of the Lord."

 

Yeah but every knee will bend and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ. In other words everyone will have a chance to get endowed if they want to, so it's not an issue. So yes you have to be endowed but everyone can be if they want to be.

It is said that as Spirits we can come back during the millennium and say essentially,  "hey you forgot me"!  to get your endowments done.

 

Edited November 22, 2019 by mfbukowski

[Metis_LDS]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

See the article on Jewish beliefs about the Latter-days online at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_eschatology .

You are the Man, Thanks Robert.

[CV75]

@Duncan I just happened to be reading one of the Gospel Topics articles on the Atonement of Christ and lo and behold, this General Conference talk was it: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2001/04/personal-preparation-for-temple-blessings?lang=eng Elder Nelson, April 2001.

He quotes Brigham Young and Elder Packer, and then cites 2 Nephi 9:41 in support of his statement, "One day we will meet our Maker and stand before Him at Judgment." This is seemingly different from my comment here: Posted Wednesday at 08:51 PM

To reconcile them, I think we can meet our Maker to be judged, and yet not enter into His Father's presence and glory. I think we can meet our Maker and than receive the judgement under the His servants as delegated.

[Duncan]

4 minutes ago, CV75 said:

@Duncan I just happened to be reading one of the Gospel Topics articles on the Atonement of Christ and lo and behold, this General Conference talk was it: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2001/04/personal-preparation-for-temple-blessings?lang=eng Elder Nelson, April 2001.

He quotes Brigham Young and Elder Packer, and then cites 2 Nephi 9:41 in support of his statement, "One day we will meet our Maker and stand before Him at Judgment." This is seemingly different from my comment here: Posted Wednesday at 08:51 PM

To reconcile them, I think we can meet our Maker to be judged, and yet not enter into His Father's presence and glory. I think we can meet our Maker and than receive the judgement under the His servants as delegated.

that sounds like a very reasonable conclusion!

[Duncan]

21 minutes ago, CV75 said:

@Duncan I just happened to be reading one of the Gospel Topics articles on the Atonement of Christ and lo and behold, this General Conference talk was it: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2001/04/personal-preparation-for-temple-blessings?lang=eng Elder Nelson, April 2001.

He quotes Brigham Young and Elder Packer, and then cites 2 Nephi 9:41 in support of his statement, "One day we will meet our Maker and stand before Him at Judgment." This is seemingly different from my comment here: Posted Wednesday at 08:51 PM

To reconcile them, I think we can meet our Maker to be judged, and yet not enter into His Father's presence and glory. I think we can meet our Maker and than receive the judgement under the His servants as delegated.

would you say the Temple is illustrative of how things will be for us in the next life? not in detail but the general jist?

[CV75]

42 minutes ago, Duncan said:

would you say the Temple is illustrative of how things will be for us in the next life? not in detail but the general jist?

Of course. It is interesting to try and think about whether and where death, resurrection and judgement are represented in the endowment. It seems the whole affair is a promise given in mortality of things to come, a holy calling and election so to speak, but which is yet to be realized and made sure, or sealed.

Edited November 22, 2019 by CV75

[JLHPROF]

5 hours ago, Duncan said:

would you say the Temple is illustrative of how things will be for us in the next life? not in detail but the general jist?

It's illustrative of the next life and this one too.  It's not just future.

Edited November 22, 2019 by JLHPROF

[InCognitus]

On 11/20/2019 at 4:38 PM, Duncan said:

that's what i'm saying it seems that all mankind regardless of worthiness and belief will stand before him some day but those who are endowed and accepted the gospel will dwell with him in Celestial glory. It's like going to someone's door and you know they answer so you are in their presence but it's up to that homeowner to decided if you come in or not. I seem to recall Pres. Packer saying something like that but now Pres. Nelson seemed to correct him, but I can't find any quotes right now.

I hadn't been reading this thread until today, so I'm late to the game.  But someone already pointed out that an appointed "judge" stands at the door, and it may just be that standing before a representative of the Father is how we come "before" him.  

I've thought a lot about this idea in connection with Job 1:6, where it says:  "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.", and in Job 2:1, "Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD."   It seems like everybody under the sun interprets those verses as a "heavenly scene" where these sons of God are in heaven and stand before God.  But it has always bugged me that nowhere in the chapter does it say anything about heaven or even hint that they are in heaven.  And it occurred to me that the same or similar language is used elsewhere in scripture for making offerings or other situations where men come and stand before the LORD's representatives.  For example:

Exodus 23:17  "Three times in the year all thy males shall appear before the Lord GOD."

Deuteronomy 19:16-18:" If a false witness rise up against any man to testify against him that which is wrong;  17 Then both the men, between whom the controversy is, shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days; 18 And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother..."

And Leviticus 5:15 talks about bringing a trespass offering "unto the LORD", and in verse 18 is a parallel verse saying that the trespass offering is "unto the priest" (the LORD's representative).

So I tend to consider the verses in Job 1:6 and Job 2:1 as regular men who are in a covenant with God (and therefore called the "sons of God") and they go to "present themselves before the LORD" to make offerings.  The fact that Job 1:5 talks about their feast preparations and Job going to offer burnt offerings helps give a context to this interpretation.

Perhaps I'm way off base with this interpretation of these verses in Job.  I haven't found a single commentary that makes this connection, so maybe I'm all alone in this.  I'd be interested to hear what others think.  But this same idea may apply to how we come to appear before the Father for our judgement.  

Edited November 23, 2019 by InCognitus