Thoughts on conference

[ttribe]

8 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Why would a parent be concerned about what they would hear from Church leaders if they are the intended audience the leaders knew they were addressing?  Women and young girls ages 8 and up, right?  You think the leaders didn't know who was there listening to them?

Because the Church leaders are infallible, right?

[Ahab]

20 minutes ago, Calm said:

But if it came down to you or him having first call on your wife's time, you insisted that you get the sealing, did you not?  Even if you haven't gotten it yet?

 You're coming through a little fuzzy to me.  What do you mean by "first call"?  And what do you mean I "insisted" that I get the sealing?  I asked my wife to marry me.  I may have let her know I needed her to complete me or something like that, but I wouldn't have called that me "insisting" that she marry me.  And that's still all it will be.  Me asking, and her letting me know if she wants to accept me as her husband.  She knows I (still) want to be her husband and eternal companion.  If she has to choose to loose that other sealing or consider it to be non binding for her to be able to be sealed to me eternally, that will still be her choice.

20 minutes ago, Calm said:

Not like science will cease to exist.  Unless biology becomes significantly different, then there will be DNA testing.  But more likely people will have total awareness of their selves, thus be aware of their own biology which means a woman can tell when she gets pregnant and thus know the father.

I can get that she might know before I do. I have an image in my mind of her letting me know that she is pregnant and me saying something like: Okay, do you know which one of us is the Father?  Sure I'll be able to have scientific tests done to determine if it is mine but I'd kinda like to know before having to go through all of that scientific hoopla where some scientists may be going to get the test results before I do.

[Wellmired]

Just butting in , I liked the singing, almost a tear jerker so beautiful.

UUUUUUUUUUPDATE: no reply necessary I always forget that part 8D

Edited October 7, 2019 by Wellmired
miscellaneous , bet you've never seen that word before 8 ) /sarc !

[Ahab]

2 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Because the Church leaders are infallible, right?

Do they need to be before you realize they are telling you something that is true?

[Ahab]

1 minute ago, Wellmired said:

Just butting in , I liked the singing, almost a tear jerker so beautiful.

Butt in anytime, bro.  You are a bro, right?  Do you really know for sure?

Sorry, nevermind, that should probably go in some other thread here.

Butt yes I also enjoyed a lot of the singing.

[ttribe]

7 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Do they need to be before you realize they are telling you something that is true?

Before I'm going to assume that is the case 100% of the time, they surely do.

[rockpond]

8 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Do they need to be before you realize they are telling you something that is true?

I take that as a "no, they are not infallible".

And I am still responsible for my children so I won't be abdicating my responsibility to my children to a church leader.

[Calm]

Ahab, that you even asked her to cancel her sealing means you wanted to have a type of relationship with her that no other man would have.  You did not stop and put the needs and desires of her first husband first or equal to your own, even if you were happy to consider your wife's.

You would be her one and only husband eternally even if she had other types of eternal relationships with others.  It is the marriage relationship that appears to be the only valid one for exaltation, given it primary or almost primary (outside our relationship with God) importance eternally.

Edited October 7, 2019 by Calm

[SettingDogStar]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

Ahab, that you even asked her to cancel her sealing means you wanted to have a type of relationship with her that no other man would have.  You did not stop and think about the needs and desires of her first husband, even if you were happy to consider your wife's.

You would be her one and only husband eternally even if she had eternal relationships with others.  It is the marriage relationship that appears to be the only valid one for exaltation, given it primary or almost primary (outside our relationship with God) importance eternally.

I’m not sure you can say that. He never mentioned if he didn’t “stop and think” about the other husband. As well as the wide would know the other husband best and can make that decision much more decidedly then Ahab.

[Calm]

14 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

I’m not sure you can say that. He never mentioned if he didn’t “stop and think” about the other husband. As well as the wide would know the other husband best and can make that decision much more decidedly then Ahab.

I rewrote it.  You probably just missed it.

Edited October 7, 2019 by Calm

[MiserereNobis]

11 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I can get that she might know before I do. I have an image in my mind of her letting me know that she is pregnant and me saying something like: Okay, do you know which one of us is the Father?  Sure I'll be able to have scientific tests done to determine if it is mine but I'd kinda like to know before having to go through all of that scientific hoopla where some scientists may be going to get the test results before I do.

This view of heaven is so.... like earth. Scientists giving gods paternity tests? Aren't you supposed to be exalted with omniscience and all?

[Ahab]

4 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Before I'm going to assume that is the case 100% of the time, they surely do.

Why would you ever want to assume anything?  Especially something like that?

Just in case you missed the memo, we're supposed to run everything through the spiritual truth checker before we believe something is true.  That means we're supposed to ask our Father and wait for him to assure us through the power of the Holy  Ghost.

Most things our Church leaders tell us are good things for them to be telling us but you won't know that for sure unless you get spiritual confirmation aka a spiritual assurance from God through the Holy Spirit to help you know that.

And the same goes true for your own personal thoughts and ideas, too, so before you just automatically believe any idea that goes through your own noggin you should check with God first to make sure that what you are thinking is true.

[ttribe]

2 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Why would you ever want to assume anything?  Especially something like that?

Just in case you missed the memo, we're supposed to run everything through the spiritual truth checker before we believe something is true.  That means we're supposed to ask our Father and wait for him to assure us through the power of the Holy  Ghost.

Most things our Church leaders tell us are good things for them to be telling us but you won't know that for sure unless you get spiritual confirmation aka a spiritual assurance from God through the Holy Spirit to help you know that.

And the same goes true for your own personal thoughts and ideas, too, so before you just automatically believe any idea that goes through your own noggin you should check with God first to make sure that what you are thinking is true.

You seem to be mistaking me for someone who is still a believer.

[rockpond]

1 minute ago, Ahab said:

Why would you ever want to assume anything?  Especially something like that?

Just in case you missed the memo, we're supposed to run everything through the spiritual truth checker before we believe something is true.  That means we're supposed to ask our Father and wait for him to assure us through the power of the Holy  Ghost.

Most things our Church leaders tell us are good things for them to be telling us but you won't know that for sure unless you get spiritual confirmation aka a spiritual assurance from God through the Holy Spirit to help you know that.

And the same goes true for your own personal thoughts and ideas, too, so before you just automatically believe any idea that goes through your own noggin you should check with God first to make sure that what you are thinking is true.

I can handle this for myself.

What I can't do is un-ring Pres. Oaks' bell that my 9 year old daughter heard on Saturday night.

You're talking in circles again, Ahab.  Closer and closer to getting blocked for being such a phenomenal time-waster.

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

This view of heaven is so.... like earth. Scientists giving gods paternity tests? Aren't you supposed to be exalted with omniscience and all?

I personally don't believe creation of Spirit children is identical to the mortal process for physical bodies.  Since I see it as impossible that our resurrected bodies are the very same as our physical ones (elements are shared by many through decomposition/ingestion, we have different molecules being used for the same body structure over the years so much of what we once were made of will have to be left out), resurrection would seem to indicate there is more than one way to organize a physical body (not just through birth since resurrection is not just taking the body formed first through birth and rewinding time till it was at its prime), so why not a different way with spiritual birth.

But my speculation if such were true, exalted beings would know before the act all about their child, just as God knew who we were from the beginning.

In the talk given on speculation that started off with the house comment, it was stated we don't know about this kind of stuff in the afterlife and we should get more comfortable about saying "we don't know" (my paraphrase).

Edited October 7, 2019 by Calm

[Ahab]

4 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

This view of heaven is so.... like earth. Scientists giving gods paternity tests? Aren't you supposed to be exalted with omniscience and all?

We're taught that we still won't know everything even after we get to heaven.  We'll continue to learn though by the same old tried and true method we are currently using as well as seeing things actually happen that we can only now scarcely imagine.

As far as the baby thing goes the easiest way to know which man did it would be for each woman to have only one man as her husband, even if a husband has many wives at the same time, because then when a woman gets pregnant there would only be one man as her husband who could have done it.  (No adultery or unwed pregnancies up there as I imagine it)  So if I'm the only husband for my wife (or wives) I'd be able to avoid having to go get some testing done before I am able to find out.

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Be that as it may, I think it a bit of a stretch to say in this instance that it was intentional. 

Oh, say it ain't so! Say it ain't so!

[Ahab]

5 minutes ago, ttribe said:

You seem to be mistaking me for someone who is still a believer.

No, that applies to you too.  It applies to everybody.  How else are you supposed to know what is true?

[SettingDogStar]

10 minutes ago, Ahab said:

We're taught that we still won't know everything even after we get to heaven.  We'll continue to learn though by the same old tried and true method we are currently using as well as seeing things actually happen that we can only now scarcely imagine.

As far as the baby thing goes the easiest way to know which man did it would be for each woman to have only one man as her husband, even if a husband has many wives at the same time, because then when a woman gets pregnant there would only be one man as her husband who could have done it.  (No adultery or unwed pregnancies up there as I imagine it)  So if I'm the only husband for my wife (or wives) I'd be able to avoid having to go get some testing done before I am able to find out.

This is all assuming pregnancy is in anyways the same in Heaven as it is here.

[Anonymous Mormon]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

Ahab, 8 year old and older girls are included in the Women’s Session.  If the First Presidency want them to be there, they should be ensuring nothing is inappropriate for them that is said. 

Given the Church has made a big deal in the past about parents being active in protecting their children from worldly influences, including exposure to sexual topics too early, I can see why some parents might be disappointed. 

My daughter is 8 and was just baptized a few months ago. It was her first woman's meeting at General Conference. My wife mentioned to me after that Elder Oak's talk brought up a good conversation with our two girls (the other being 11), on the way home because they asked her to define LGBT.

I personally don't mind that this is brought up in front of and then discussed with my 8 year old daughter. There are lots of kids at her school with Lesbian / Gay parents and a number of kids in the Junior High / High School who are transgender. I prefer that we have the conversation with her now to help her know that these things exist, that we believe this lifestyle is not God's plan for us, and that we should act lovingly to people who live this lifestyle and to their kids.

I also respect those who feel different and feel that this is too young of an age. In our case, our kids hang out playing games and coloring in the room with us during most of general conference, so there isn't a 'safe time' for them to bring it up and I'd rather know that it isn't in front of my 6 year old but only my 8 year old. 

But I also would prefer if it was only 12 and up at the Women's conference (like Priesthood) so that speakers can talk more to adults and not feel like they have to talk to primary kids. I feel like having primary kids in the room 'waters down' the conversation (except for this last session I guess - I still haven't heard it). This was especially true for the first women's conference with 8 year olds, where every speaker talked in their 'primary voice.'

All of that said, when someone's comments are 95% complaints about the apostles and prophets, then I take their complaint on this issue with a grain of salt. If Elder Oaks came out and in his talk and said, "8 year olds aren't mature enough to discuss issues like LGBT," then I am guessing these same individuals would complain that he was judging their kids as immature and that LGBT issues are for every age because it's how people are.

[Ahab]

20 minutes ago, Calm said:

Ahab, that you even asked her to cancel her sealing means you wanted to have a type of relationship with her that no other man would have.  You did not stop and put the needs and desires of her first husband first or equal to your own, even if you were happy to consider your wife's.

I didn't ask her to cancel her first sealing. I asked if she would marry and be sealed to me even if that meant she would have to cancel her first sealing.  We still don't know if canceling her first sealing is something she will have to do if she wants to be sealed to me.  And yes while I could have avoided the whole situation by not asking her if she wanted to be married to me, I wanted her to tell me if she wanted to be married to me, even if that meant she would have to cancel her first sealing to do it.  She could have said No then and she could still say No now, but she wants to marry me and I am not going to stop her.  And I am glad that I asked her, instead of ignoring her or walking away knowing that she already had another husband.  Because her first husband had died I was within my God given rights to ask her, and she was within her God given rights to let me know what she wanted,  And No I am not the least bit concerned about her first husband not having any woman to have as his wife now.  I have faith that he will have the choice to marry again and maybe even have more than one other wife.

20 minutes ago, Calm said:

You would be her one and only husband eternally even if she had other types of eternal relationships with others.  It is the marriage relationship that appears to be the only valid one for exaltation, given it primary or almost primary (outside our relationship with God) importance eternally.

If she can't have more than one husband sealed to her, you mean, and she chooses me over her first husband, Yes, that is what it would mean.  And I will be happy forever with her as my one and only wife, unless God has other plans in store for me.

[ttribe]

15 minutes ago, Ahab said:

No, that applies to you too.  It applies to everybody.  How else are you supposed to know what is true?

Well, Ahab, my experience is that prayer is not a reliable method for determining truth or assisting in judgment and decision making...hence, my more recent status as a non-believer.

[SettingDogStar]

8 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I didn't ask her to cancel her first sealing. I asked if she would marry and be sealed to me even if that meant she would have to cancel her first sealing.  We still don't know if canceling her first sealing is something she will have to do if she wants to be sealed to me.  And yes while I could have avoided the whole situation by not asking her if she wanted to be married to me, I wanted her to tell me if she wanted to be married to me, even if that meant she would have to cancel her first sealing to do it.  She could have said No then and she could still say No now, but she wants to marry me and I am not going to stop her.  And I am glad that I asked her, instead of ignoring her or walking away knowing that she already had another husband.  Because her first husband had died I was within my God given rights to ask her, and she was within her God given rights to let me know what she wanted,  And No I am not the least bit concerned about her first husband not having any woman to have as his wife now.  I have faith that he will have the choice to marry again and maybe even have more than one other wife.

If she can't have more than one husband sealed to her, you mean, and she chooses me over her first husband, Yes, that is what it would mean.  And I will be happy forever with her as my one and only wife, unless God has other plans in store for me.

I agree with you! Joseph Smith wrote that it was within our right to marry another of our spouse passed away.

[rockpond]

11 minutes ago, Anonymous Mormon said:

All of that said, when someone's comments are 95% complaints about the apostles and prophets, then I take their complaint on this issue with a grain of salt. If Elder Oaks came out and in his talk and said, "8 year olds aren't mature enough to discuss issues like LGBT," then I am guessing these same individuals would complain that he was judging their kids as immature and that LGBT issues are for every age because it's how people are.

I would not have complained at such a comment by President Oaks.

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, Ahab said:

f she can't have more than one husband sealed to her, you mean, and she chooses me over her first husband, Yes, that is what it would mean.  And I will be happy forever with her as my one and only wife, unless God has other plans in store for m

Would you be disappointed if she decided not to cancel her sealing and therefore not be sealed to you?