Were the Mormon Pioneers illegal immigrants?

[blarsen]

1 hour ago, USU78 said:

I don't know how you separate Washakie's vision and the band's remnants' several decisions to be baptized.  The former would have been known by most if not all of the participants in the very one-sided battle.  Please explain.

I've heard/read of Washakie's vision, and have Amos Wright's book or one about him somewhere in  my piles of books, but don't recall and couldn't find any information about the vision in my recent search. 

However, Washakie was not baptized by Wright until about 1880, along w/2-300 other Shoshone people around the same time.  Earlier conversions apparently occured around 1873, including Chief Sagwitch and his band.  Sagwitch had been a survivor of the Bear River massacre/battle.  And Chief Pocatello came to SLC in about 1875 inviting baptism.

None of this seems to have had anything to do with the Bear River battle/massacre.

[USU78]

15 minutes ago, blarsen said:

I've heard/read of Washakie's vision, and have Amos Wright's book or one about him somewhere in  my piles of books, but don't recall and couldn't find any information about the vision in my recent search. 

However, Washakie was not baptized by Wright until about 1880, along w/2-300 other Shoshone people around the same time.  Earlier conversions apparently occured around 1873, including Chief Sagwitch and his band.  Sagwitch had been a survivor of the Bear River massacre/battle.  And Chief Pocatello came to SLC in about 1875 inviting baptism.

None of this seems to have had anything to do with the Bear River battle/massacre.

I think Darren Parry would disagree with that deconstruction:

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865571317/Bear-River-Massacres-unexpected-aftermath-includes-forgiveness-and-hope.html

My reference to helping the survivors out comes from family history.  My widowed great-great grandmother (arrived just before the railroad) would feed them in family groups when things got tough, and she, who made a living making and selling humbug candy in a big iron kettle outside the summer kitchen, would share the candy with the family groups when they came by.  They tended to come when the smell of the boiling brown sugar/peppermint candy would waft for miles.  And she was just one widow in one settlement in Box Elder County. 

Are we to think the 1873 Sagwitch co-chief's follow-up dream to Washakie's vision came in a vacuum?  Visions and dreams come in real time to real people experiencing real things.  The little bit that the scattered Mormon settlers could do needed to be multiplied by the greater resources, and a change of heart in the NW Band members themselves.

[blarsen]

3 hours ago, USU78 said:

I think Darren Parry would disagree with that deconstruction:

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865571317/Bear-River-Massacres-unexpected-aftermath-includes-forgiveness-and-hope.html

My reference to helping the survivors out comes from family history.  My widowed great-great grandmother (arrived just before the railroad) would feed them in family groups when things got tough, and she, who made a living making and selling humbug candy in a big iron kettle outside the summer kitchen, would share the candy with the family groups when they came by.  They tended to come when the smell of the boiling brown sugar/peppermint candy would waft for miles.  And she was just one widow in one settlement in Box Elder County. 

Are we to think the 1873 Sagwitch co-chief's follow-up dream to Washakie's vision came in a vacuum?  Visions and dreams come in real time to real people experiencing real things.  The little bit that the scattered Mormon settlers could do needed to be multiplied by the greater resources, and a change of heart in the NW Band members themselves.

Deconstruction?  You lost me on that one.  Wonderful story, though.  Earlier today I had downloaded Scott Christensen's book; haven't read it all yet.

I would say the dream and conversion of Sagwitch and his people came because of kind treatment from LDS people like your gg grandmother as well as by the Spirit in general.  But I guess you could say the massacre played an indirect role by making that group more destitute and having to deal w/more hardship and tragedy.  They were fortunate in being among people who believed in their destiny and were predisposed to help them.

Probably in any other setting, having been subject to massacre from largely white US soldiers, the band would have been even more distrustful of whites, their religions and culture.

The Shoshone speak what is regarded as a Uto-Aztecan language, which linguistic group Brian Stubbs has determined has some 1500 words that are cognate with Hebrew, Aramaic and Egyptian, w/more Hebrew-derived words than Yiddish.  Based on this, they would seem  to be a prime target for being gathered in to the Gospel espoused by their distant ancestors.

 

Edited July 29, 2019 by blarsen

[USU78]

5 hours ago, blarsen said:

Deconstruction?  You lost me on that one.  Wonderful story, though.  Earlier today I had downloaded Scott Christensen's book; haven't read it all yet.

I would say the dream and conversion of Sagwitch and his people came because of kind treatment from LDS people like your gg grandmother as well as by the Spirit in general.  But I guess you could say the massacre played an indirect role by making that group more destitute and having to deal w/more hardship and tragedy.  They were fortunate in being among people who believed in their destiny and were predisposed to help them.

Probably in any other setting, having been subject to massacre from largely white US soldiers, the band would have been even more distrustful of whites, their religions and culture.

The Shoshone speak what is regarded as a Uto-Aztecan language, which linguistic group Brian Stubbs has determined has some 1500 words that are cognate with Hebrew, Aramaic and Egyptian, w/more Hebrew-derived words than Yiddish.  Based on this, they would seem  to be a prime target for being gathered in to the Gospel espoused by their distant ancestors.

Love Stubbs' work. I've been following it since he first had his xeroxed paper at FAIR. As a failed linguist myself I just get lost in the magic of imagining I'm a Grimm brother.

[Stargazer]

On 7/29/2019 at 4:01 PM, Bernard Gui said:

Pretty sure his comment was a bit of sarcasm. I chuckled when I first read it.

Interesting history about your area. In today’s social justice mode, then, sounds like everyone who lives there merits some sort of reparation payments. Except you, of course. As the newcomer, you would have to pay all of them. 

 

Well, they made me pay a surcharge to join with the National Health Service when I got permission to immigrate.

Ancestry-wise, I'm half-German, but about a third British. I have ancestors who are buried within 50 miles of where I'm now living, so maybe I am due some fraction of reparations.

 

[blarsen]

On 7/31/2019 at 4:43 AM, Stargazer said:

Well, they made me pay a surcharge to join with the National Health Service when I got permission to immigrate.

Ancestry-wise, I'm half-German, but about a third British. I have ancestors who are buried within 50 miles of where I'm now living, so maybe I am due some fraction of reparations.

 

Unfortunately, half of that should probably be added to the reparations going to Jewish survivors of the Holocaust; and the rest should go to the Irish for the British 'holocaust' against them:   ref. $10 Trillion War Reparations Due by Britain for Irish Holocaust:  https://irishblog-brianclarkenuj.blogspot.com/2012/09/10-trillion-war-reparations-due-by.html

[Stargazer]

7 hours ago, blarsen said:

Unfortunately, half of that should probably be added to the reparations going to Jewish survivors of the Holocaust; and the rest should go to the Irish for the British 'holocaust' against them:   ref. $10 Trillion War Reparations Due by Britain for Irish Holocaust:  https://irishblog-brianclarkenuj.blogspot.com/2012/09/10-trillion-war-reparations-due-by.html

Ah but my German ancestors immigrated to the American colonies long before the Austrian paperhanger took over.  One of my ancestors fought in the Civil War on the Union side, and none of my ancestors ever owned a slave. My British ancestors were in the US way before the War of Indepedence.  My French ancestors were in Quebec long before the French and Indian War (pre-Independence).  That leaves my Indian ancestors, who have been in North America for thousands of year.

In short, none of my ancestors had anything to do with anything connected with anything that could be charged against any reparations.

[USU78]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

Ah but my German ancestors immigrated to the American colonies long before the Austrian paperhanger took over.  One of my ancestors fought in the Civil War on the Union side, and none of my ancestors ever owned a slave. My British ancestors were in the US way before the War of Indepedence.  My French ancestors were in Quebec long before the French and Indian War (pre-Independence).  That leaves my Indian ancestors, who have been in North America for thousands of year.

In short, none of my ancestors had anything to do with anything connected with anything that could be charged against any reparations.

So ...  I was playing with Familysearch.org the other day, and discovered that I am like 12th cousins with several of the Motown singing stars from back in the day.  Does that mean I get a pass?

[Stargazer]

15 minutes ago, USU78 said:

So ...  I was playing with Familysearch.org the other day, and discovered that I am like 12th cousins with several of the Motown singing stars from back in the day.  Does that mean I get a pass?

Yeah, sure, why not.

Queen Elizabeth I is my great grandaunt 15 times removed (or something like that). I wonder if I can get a dinner invitation to Buckingham Palace, since I am obviously family.

[SettingDogStar]

7 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Yeah, sure, why not.

Queen Elizabeth I is my great grandaunt 15 times removed (or something like that). I wonder if I can get a dinner invitation to Buckingham Palace, since I am obviously family.

How many people would you have to..uh..remove..to be next in line?!

[USU78]

7 hours ago, SettingDogStar said:

How many people would you have to..uh..remove..to be next in line?!

I know a guy.

[Stargazer]

8 hours ago, SettingDogStar said:

How many people would you have to..uh..remove..to be next in line?!

Ever see what the English monarch has to go through to do her job?  She might be rich, but she's a puppet with no life of her own.  No thanks.

But in the event, I think the number would be in the tens of thousands.  

[Tacenda]

I don't know if these incidences have been mentioned. But if true, it's overwhelming to me that this was done. 

http://www.ldsdefector.com/fact-1759/?fbclid=IwAR2RLTp-1PN9r883zQdXxu32SN3qqRu7jpcoRCbmbd7YM8Ggmg4MlTcw30E

https://lamanitetruth.com/2018/02/26/shattered-glass-in-flour-given-to-the-timpanogos-native-americans-by-mormons/?fbclid=IwAR3mu0hbUKx_n9ZlqeG2sxfpF-LMdeZhiXThySeobAtfOh5ETNZlK1Ci4Wo

[Calm]

One quote appears to have missed it was a warning:

Quote

dreaded, I said, ‘It will just as sure kill as the world, if you live as we live.’ Said he, ‘I want as good as Brigham, I want to eat as he does.’ Said I, ‘Eat then, but it will kill you.’ I told the same to Arapeen, Walker’s brother; but they must eat and drink as the whites did

I read that full quote partially quoted above as a distaste for violence and a sad, partly sarcastic recognition those who were seeking destruction for the aboriginals didn’t have to do anything as aboriginals were being destroyed through their choice of changing to an unhealthy for them lifestyle.

As far as glass in flour, I would not be surprised if that happened as there were Saints who treated natives as less than human, hopefully lesss than more.  Brigham being involved and encouraging the murderous practice, I would like to know how they knew and if it could be confirmed through independent documentation. Seems inconsistent behaviour imo from Brigham. Doesn’t mean it is false, but does need more than just word of mouth that do any tell us how they heard it.

Edited August 6, 2019 by Calm

[webbles]

42 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I don't know if these incidences have been mentioned. But if true, it's overwhelming to me that this was done. 

http://www.ldsdefector.com/fact-1759/?fbclid=IwAR2RLTp-1PN9r883zQdXxu32SN3qqRu7jpcoRCbmbd7YM8Ggmg4MlTcw30E

https://lamanitetruth.com/2018/02/26/shattered-glass-in-flour-given-to-the-timpanogos-native-americans-by-mormons/?fbclid=IwAR3mu0hbUKx_n9ZlqeG2sxfpF-LMdeZhiXThySeobAtfOh5ETNZlK1Ci4Wo

The quote from Brigham Young about giving them flour isn't about killing them.  It is about civilizing the tribes so that they will be "friends".  Killing the tribes would be expensive and painful while giving them flour and civilizing would allow both sets of people to live together.

The rest of the quotes are mostly about the Battle of Fort Utah, which is like most battles and involves a lot of mistaken assumptions and death.  Should that battle of happened?  Probably not.  But the settlers picked the wrong part of the valley to settle, then mistreatment and misunderstanding happened on both sides, and finally an actual battle happened.  And unfortunately for the tribes, the settlers had better weapons.  This is what unfortunately happened across the west as settlers invaded tribal lands.

The quote about the laced flour is from only one person and may have happened but it likely was an extremely isolated incident.  It also probably wouldn't have killed anyone because lacing food with glass just doesn't work - https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ground-glass-deadly/

[USU78]

40 minutes ago, webbles said:

The quote from Brigham Young about giving them flour isn't about killing them.  It is about civilizing the tribes so that they will be "friends".  Killing the tribes would be expensive and painful while giving them flour and civilizing would allow both sets of people to live together.

The rest of the quotes are mostly about the Battle of Fort Utah, which is like most battles and involves a lot of mistaken assumptions and death.  Should that battle of happened?  Probably not.  But the settlers picked the wrong part of the valley to settle, then mistreatment and misunderstanding happened on both sides, and finally an actual battle happened.  And unfortunately for the tribes, the settlers had better weapons.  This is what unfortunately happened across the west as settlers invaded tribal lands.

The quote about the laced flour is from only one person and may have happened but it likely was an extremely isolated incident.  It also probably wouldn't have killed anyone because lacing food with glass just doesn't work - https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ground-glass-deadly/

I have never heard an antiMormon use the "feed 'em rather than fight 'em" quote to argue BY wanted to poison the tribes.  It's patently ridiculous.

That said, the rumors and rage associated with the Utah Blackhawk War https://uofupress.lib.utah.edu/utahs-black-hawk-war/ and other skirmishes like Fort Utah are definitely the most regrettable part of the story of Mormon settlement in the Great Basin.

[The Nehor]

On 8/1/2019 at 4:23 PM, Stargazer said:

Ah but my German ancestors immigrated to the American colonies long before the Austrian paperhanger took over.  One of my ancestors fought in the Civil War on the Union side, and none of my ancestors ever owned a slave. My British ancestors were in the US way before the War of Indepedence.  My French ancestors were in Quebec long before the French and Indian War (pre-Independence).  That leaves my Indian ancestors, who have been in North America for thousands of year.

In short, none of my ancestors had anything to do with anything connected with anything that could be charged against any reparations.

Go back further.

I owe reparations for my ancestors participating in the Norman conquest.

[Stargazer]

5 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Go back further.

I owe reparations for my ancestors participating in the Norman conquest.

Then send the check already. I'm waiting, because some of my ancestors were on the Anglo-Saxon side of that.  

But I suppose it's a wash, because some of my ancestors were on the Celtic side of the Anglo-Saxon invasion.

So, we're all guilty. Except for the fact that "original sin" is baloney.  And God's law does not permit me to be punished for my father's transgressions. Even if I might have to bear consequences resulting therefrom.

[The Nehor]

20 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Then send the check already. I'm waiting, because some of my ancestors were on the Anglo-Saxon side of that.  

But I suppose it's a wash, because some of my ancestors were on the Celtic side of the Anglo-Saxon invasion.

So, we're all guilty. Except for the fact that "original sin" is baloney.  And God's law does not permit me to be punished for my father's transgressions. Even if I might have to bear consequences resulting therefrom.

I have ancestors on both sides too. I guess I will write the check to myself.

I am not pro-reparations if that is why you are being combative. Your attempts to portray your ancestors as guilt-free suggests you might actually have some guilt though.

[Stargazer]

2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I have ancestors on both sides too. I guess I will write the check to myself.

I am not pro-reparations if that is why you are being combative. Your attempts to portray your ancestors as guilt-free suggests you might actually have some guilt though.

I'm not being combative!  But your attempts to portray my ancestors as guilt-ridden suggests that you're trying to deflect suspicion from your ancestors!  😄  

Actually, I didn't think I was saying they were guilt-free...  As far as I know, none of them ever owned slaves, committed murder or any other felony, however.  To the best of my knowledge anyway.

[The Nehor]

12 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I'm not being combative!  But your attempts to portray my ancestors as guilt-ridden suggests that you're trying to deflect suspicion from your ancestors!  😄  

Actually, I didn't think I was saying they were guilt-free...  As far as I know, none of them ever owned slaves, committed murder or any other felony, however.  To the best of my knowledge anyway.

My great great grandfather was an out and out traitor who stole and burned US army supply wagons back in the Utah War. Do my income taxes count as reparations?

[USU78]

16 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

My great great grandfather was an out and out traitor who stole and burned US army supply wagons back in the Utah War. Do my income taxes count as reparations?

The wholesale thievery of unappropriated lands by the Feds to prevent development in violation of the organic act authorizing creation of the State of Utah excuses each and every act of civil disobedience by every Utahn who (or whose ancestor) stepped foot in Utah prior to admission to the Union.

[Stargazer]

42 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

My great great grandfather was an out and out traitor who stole and burned US army supply wagons back in the Utah War. Do my income taxes count as reparations?

I'd say he was performing a valuable public service, actually!

[The Nehor]

11 hours ago, USU78 said:

The wholesale thievery of unappropriated lands by the Feds to prevent development in violation of the organic act authorizing creation of the State of Utah excuses each and every act of civil disobedience by every Utahn who (or whose ancestor) stepped foot in Utah prior to admission to the Union.

I know, I am kidding. I like hyperbole. One of my favorite movie lines was a toast offered on behalf of those who signed the Declaration of Independence: “To High Treason!”

11 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I'd say he was performing a valuable public service, actually!

He records that a leader of one of the supply convoys tried to shame him out of it suggesting that no one who loved God would burn these wagons. He replied that he could not serve God without burning them.

[JAHS]